National ID Card

[ParanoiA]

Canada has the same problem, so in order to faciliate the process of pre-paided gas they make the gas attendants pay for the stolen gas if they don't get the plates. Well that's my theory anyway. It's pretty weak to make the attendant responsible for it. Great system eh?

 

Sounds like both solutions are just shucking the loss off onto someone else. Classic big business model.

[Pangloss]

Not everyone gets a driver's license, and the problem of multiple redundant IDs can be solved by just letting the state attach a driver's license rider to a national ID card. (shrug)

[Royston]

Not everyone gets a driver's license, and the problem of multiple redundant IDs can be solved by just letting the state attach a driver's license rider to a national ID card. (shrug)

 

Which would solve...nothing.

[Pangloss]

Sure it does, it gives you a national database for tracking purposes without adding a second ID card to everyone's wallet.

[Royston]

But there's already a 'national database' (don't you think I could check out your credentials, if I wanted) and your argument is a lighter wallet...come on.

[Severian]

I am generally in favour of an ID card with biometric info on it. The only thing I would insist on was that we didn't have to carry it by law.

 

On the other hand, while I would be happy with an ID card in the UK, I probably wouldn't be happy in the US, because I simply wouldn't trust the government.

[Pangloss]

No, it's not "my argument". I don't have an argument from a position on this yet. At the moment I'm discussing practical matters. I haven't decided if I'm in favor of a national ID card or not. I think both sides make valid arguments, although I must say that the cost to poor people is simply not one of them, nor is the number of cards we carry in our wallet. If people can find room for a dozen credit cards then they can make a slot for a national ID card. And with all the lost birth records and certificates each year, another form of ID that one could use to confirm for a driver's license or passport might actually be useful. In purely practical terms. (Those of us who have been around long enough for our birth hospital to forget about us know all about practical applications of identity paperwork.)

 

I don't know what the situation is in the UK, but in the US the individual states manage birth certificates and driver's license information on their own, and the systems are not interconnected. There are national systems for Passports, Social Security and the federal income tax, but each of those systems has pitfalls, such as the fact that not everyone has to pay tax, and not everyone who is legally in the country is a citizen.

 

What information you can "find out about me" on the Internet is not at issue here. If the government doesn't manage that information, then it's not of value for official purposes.

[ParanoiA]

I am generally in favour of an ID card with biometric info on it. The only thing I would insist on was that we didn't have to carry it by law.

 

On the other hand' date=' while I would be happy with an ID card in the UK, I probably wouldn't be happy in the US, because I simply wouldn't trust the government.[/quote']

 

You don't believe your government would ever become untrustworthy? Laws don't usually fizzle out. They stay around for a long, long time...

[Jim]

No' date=' it's not "my argument". I don't have an argument from a position on this yet. At the moment I'm discussing practical matters. I haven't decided if I'm in favor of a national ID card or not. I think both sides make valid arguments, although I must say that the cost to poor people is simply not one of them, nor is the number of cards we carry in our wallet. If people can find room for a dozen credit cards then they can make a slot for a national ID card. And with all the lost birth records and certificates each year, another form of ID that one could use to confirm for a driver's license or passport might actually be useful. In purely practical terms. (Those of us who have been around long enough for our birth hospital to forget about us know all about practical applications of identity paperwork.)

 

I don't know what the situation is in the UK, but in the US the individual states manage birth certificates and driver's license information on their own, and the systems are not interconnected. There are national systems for Passports, Social Security and the federal income tax, but each of those systems has pitfalls, such as the fact that not everyone has to pay tax, and not everyone who is legally in the country is a citizen.

 

What information you can "find out about me" on the Internet is not at issue here. If the government doesn't manage that information, then it's not of value for official purposes.[/quote']

 

I am deeply concerned about a future where the government has the ability to effectively chain us like prisoners with electronic collars and use software to monitor our paths from point A to point B. At the same time, I can see us being forced to move in this direction with a national ID card, not that we have to carry us with us, but we'll have to have it to do even common place transactions.

 

A balance has to be struck between tip toeing onto this slippery slope and the risk of inaction which could create a larger problem down the road. The fact that we have 12-20 million illegals in the country is pretty good evidence the databases are intentionally not interconnected. I'm not advocating that they be interconnected any time soon.

[zyncod]

The fact that we have 12-20 million illegals in the country is pretty good evidence the databases are intentionally not interconnected. I'm not advocating that they be interconnected any time soon.

 

How many of these people do you think exist in a government database? 70%? 50%? 20%? I'm betting on the last one or below. The reason that 10m illegal aliens live in this country is that there is no pressing need to deport them.

[Glider]

well yeah' date=' there IS that too, but it`s also another subject again entirely.

as for the Free bit, if enough ppl refuse to pay the 38 quid for one, and the .Gov really want each to have one, they will be free eventualy [/quote']They really won't. The govt. may not make us pay up front, but we will pay. The govt. don't actually have any money of their own. It all comes from our taxes. So, all the money national ID cards have/will cost in research and develpoment, manufacture delivery and infrastructure (readers, databases etc.) we have already paid/will ultimately pay for.

[Jim]

How many of these people do you think exist in a government database? 70%? 50%? 20%? I'm betting on the last one or below.

 

I would bet with you on this one.

 

The reason that 10m illegal aliens live in this country is that there is no pressing need to deport them.

 

The reason there are 12-20MM illegals in the country is a rare alignment of the interests of politicians of both parties, business and surburbia.

[ParanoiA]

How many of these people do you think exist in a government database? 70%? 50%? 20%? I'm betting on the last one or below. The reason that 10m illegal aliens live in this country is that there is no pressing need to deport them.

 

Actually there is a pressing need to deport them - jobs and integrity. The arguments I keep hearing from the left is that they do the work the rest of americans won't do. This is true. Americans won't frame a house for 2 dollars an hour. However, this is illegal. I'll bet I can force my kids to do the same thing for a dollar an hour - so is everyone going to come to their defense and claim they're doing the work the rest of us won't do?

 

It's asinine to me. Democrats are actually in favor of holding these immigrants down - keeping them beat down to working under minimum wage rather than fighting for their integrity and demanding fair wages. And these poor immigrants are marching and protesting in favor of it. Shocking to me.

 

 

They really won't. The govt. may not make us pay up front, but we will pay. The govt. don't actually have any money of their own. It all comes from our taxes. So, all the money national ID cards have/will cost in research and develpoment, manufacture delivery and infrastructure (readers, databases etc.) we have already paid/will ultimately pay for.

 

Great point. This is why government should be by the people, for the people. It's the people that pay for it.

[entwined]

What would be the value of a national ID card to the government -or to anyone else- if it was not biometric?

 

I think that it has been amply demonstrated that anything made from plastic or paper can be faked.

 

Without retina scanning equipment in a LOT of places, all hooked to a national database, what would it really mean for one to flash a national ID card ?

 

Now, WITH the proper scanning equipment, in airports for example, I can see where the lines could be made shorter.

[abskebabs]

We have too much money wrapped up in it, which is why I like to kick around Athenian style office occupation. A direct democracy with drafted senators sounds sweet compared to what we have today.

It's interesting, you seem to be having similiar thoughts to me in terms of direct democracy. I think Athenian democracy itself actually had every citizen(meaning adult male) vote on every decision to be made; thereby avoiding the need for a parliament, senate or congress.

 

The only problem I can forsee which such a system, is that it is held hostage to the mindset of ppls,and if this can be manipulated by external forces; then so can the country.

[Jim]

The arguments I keep hearing from the left is that they do the work the rest of americans won't do. This is true. Americans won't frame a house for 2 dollars an hour. However, this is illegal[/i']. I'll bet I can force my kids to do the same thing for a dollar an hour - so is everyone going to come to their defense and claim they're doing the work the rest of us won't do?

 

What the left and Bush also ignore is that the children of illegals are not going to be willing to do this kind of work for a pittance. It's not possible to grow up in America without some sense of entitlement. This is merely a temporary solution to providing cheap labor.

[Sisyphus]

We have too much money wrapped up in it, which is why I like to kick around Athenian style office occupation. A direct democracy with drafted senators sounds sweet compared to what we have today.

 

That doesn't work. I would think Athens itself should be adequate proof of that.

[ParanoiA]

It's interesting' date=' you seem to be having similiar thoughts to me in terms of direct democracy. I think Athenian democracy itself actually had every citizen(meaning adult male) vote on every decision to be made; thereby avoiding the need for a parliament, senate or congress.

[/quote']

 

I thought they still had some representatives of some kind though. I don't know. But some kind of entity would have to prioritize, draft and put bills in motion I would think. Whatever the case, yeah I've been chewing on it for awhile. Maybe we should start a thread on it, if one hasn't been done already.

 

 

The only problem I can forsee which such a system, is that it is held hostage to the mindset of ppls,and if this can be manipulated by external forces; then so can the country.

 

I completely agree. That is my same concern. What about a weighted system though? For example, a drafted senator's vote could have a weight of 33%, while the people's vote has a weight of 67%. I'm not sure I like that actually, but thought I'd toss it out there.

[Royston]

No' date=' it's not "my argument". I don't have an argument from a position on this yet. At the moment I'm discussing practical matters. I haven't decided if I'm in favor of a national ID card or not. I think both sides make valid arguments, although I must say that the cost to poor people is simply not one of them, nor is the number of cards we carry in our wallet. If people can find room for a dozen credit cards then they can make a slot for a national ID card. And with all the lost birth records and certificates each year, another form of ID that one could use to confirm for a driver's license or passport might actually be useful. In purely practical terms. (Those of us who have been around long enough for our birth hospital to forget about us know all about practical applications of identity paperwork.)

 

I don't know what the situation is in the UK, but in the US the individual states manage birth certificates and driver's license information on their own, and the systems are not interconnected. There are national systems for Passports, Social Security and the federal income tax, but each of those systems has pitfalls, such as the fact that not everyone has to pay tax, and not everyone who is legally in the country is a citizen.

 

What information you can "find out about me" on the Internet is not at issue here. If the government doesn't manage that information, then it's not of value for official purposes.[/quote']

 

Sorry Pangloss, I was being stupid.

 

Not directed at you, but my position still holds, national ID cards are a matter of security, and constraints on immigration. There can only be repercussions from such a scheme, plus a waste of time, money and effort.

 

For somebody to enter the country with ID cards in place, would only be effective for security purposes if the scheme was global. People entering the country would have to be on the database to be tracked, so how would a national ID card stop anyone entering the country, plus (as already mentioned, there's many ways of getting into a country undetected.) Also, whats to stop somebody who has an ID card, causing an act of terroism.

 

To get work, there are plenty of unlisted companies to work for, casual labour et.c Not only is there tax evasion with an unlisted company, but they can choose the wage for their employees, ideal for illegal immigrants. How would a national ID card prevent this, or more to the point, surely such a thing would escalate.

 

The money on such a scheme could be put to a better use...and this is a lot of money we're talking about. If somebody is for the national ID card, because they have 'nothing to hide' is really beside the point.

 

Sorry for ranting, I just think it's a completely pointless and expensive venture.

[Jim]

 

For somebody to enter the country with ID cards in place' date=' would only be effective for security purposes if the scheme was global. People entering the country would have to be on the database to be tracked, so how would a national ID card stop [i']anyone [/i]entering the country, plus (as already mentioned, there's many ways of getting into a country undetected.) Also, whats to stop somebody who has an ID card, causing an act of terroism.

 

To get work, there are plenty of unlisted companies to work for, casual labour et.c Not only is there tax evasion with an unlisted company, but they can choose the wage for their employees, ideal for illegal immigrants. How would a national ID card prevent this, or more to the point, surely such a thing would escalate.

 

The money on such a scheme could be put to a better use...and this is a lot of money we're talking about. If somebody is for the national ID card, because they have 'nothing to hide' is really beside the point.

 

Sorry for ranting, I just think it's a completely pointless and expensive venture.

 

 

(edited to join sentence fragments:)

 

I think these proposals are more about a card. If there was a unhackable card which was linked in an interconnected national database in which a record was noted every time basic transactions occurred and computing power is applied to determine threatening pattern, in such a grim world (think Cruise trying to go off the grid in Minority Report), there is no question our security would be enhanced. At what price, though?