Severian Posted August 30, 2006 Share Posted August 30, 2006 Not easy to find quotes by the man himself' date=' but how about this one from Mein Kampf: "I believe that I am acting in accordance with the will of the Almighty Creator: by defending myself against the Jew, I am fighting for the work of the Lord.." I make no comment on it at the moment, but does this alter anyone's views? i think it should.....[/quote'] Why should your post alter anyone's views? That quote was in the first link I gave. Did you try looking at any of the others - especially the second link? The infamous Hitler Youth marching song was rather unchristian too: We follow not Christ, but Horst Wessel, Away with incense and Holy Water, The Church can go hang for all we care, The Swastika brings salvation on Earth. and here is a quote from Goebbels diary: "The Führer is deeply religious, but deeply anti-Christian. He regards Christianity as a symptom of decay" For starters, he kidnapped, tortured, and killed 12 million people. The gods I worship look down on that kind of thing. My God doesn't like it either. But a perfect God is infintely forgiving if the repentance is genuine. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AzurePhoenix Posted August 30, 2006 Share Posted August 30, 2006 this whole thing is obviously pointless to argue about. For Hitler himself it's difficult to understand just what he believed because of his political agendas and the lack of concise information shwoing just what he really thought and believed in. As for perceptions of christian or not, there is a wide range of christian ideals, many of which clash with eachother. Very few of which I might add having doctrine rooted in exactly what the bible says, but rather deriving from a vast range of perceptions about what it says, and what it further implies unsaid, and what they feel it should mean based on what they believe. The interpretation of "perfect" for instance. And what many hold to be "good christian ideals" can be completely reinterpeted from the same text, or from obscure passage buried deep and oft ignored. Based on the quotes I've read so far, one could speculate that perhaps Hitler did believe in the bible and follow it as comparatively soundly as any contemporary christian today, but that he despised the institution of the christian religion itself. He wouldn't be a christian, but only because he was part of a club that didn't take on the same name. Hell, he could follow the Bible to the letter and still nto be a Christian. It'd still be essentially the same as saying a squirrel is one type of rodent and hamster another, and the ancestor of both was neither squirrel nor hamster. The hamsters might not approve of the squirrel, and vice versa, but they come from the same basic stock, in this case the Bible, and isn't that what makes the real difference? Not whether or not he follows the rules set up by whatever sect that's judging him, but whether or not he's basing it off of the same thing that sect bases its own "fill-in-the-blank" and "pick-and-choose" ideals on? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Severian Posted August 30, 2006 Share Posted August 30, 2006 schpaw After all, what we're after is the motivation for behavior. If Hitler thought of himself as a vegitarian (even if we wasn't a 'true vegitarian'), then those beliefs he held would have had a role in influencing his behavior. (Sorry I took so long to respond - I had overlooked your pithy reply.) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
john5746 Posted August 31, 2006 Share Posted August 31, 2006 I wrote an article about something and a person told me that Hitler wasn't actually christian. And he despised christianity. I searched about it and couldn't find any article about his religion. Most of htem give me about the crimes he committed and how he got to power. So could anyone help me' date=' and please dont refer to wikipedia.. i really dont trust it. And apologies to the admin/mods if this is posted in wrong section Thanks.[/quote'] Haven't read much about Hitler and don't intend to anytime soon. I don't recall the Nazi party praising Christ all the time. The important point I think is that Germany commited these attrocities in spite of(or because of) their Christian traditions. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
why? Posted August 31, 2006 Author Share Posted August 31, 2006 This might be a little irrelevant and completely wrong But i remember my global teacher mentioning that the anti-semetism was first startd by the church itself. As christians could not take interest on loans given to others ( mostly christian) and Jewish people could, they had an anti-semitic feeling. MAybe this is where hte stereotype comes from. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bascule Posted September 1, 2006 Share Posted September 1, 2006 My God doesn't like it either. But a perfect God is infintely forgiving if the repentance is genuine. How can you claim God is "infinitely forgiving" if he's unwilling to forgive those who don't ascribe to the Christianity meme? Why does this gift of infinite forgiveness come with strings attached? How would America be looked upon if the only Iraqis we offered aid to were ones who swore allegiance to America? Or what if Church-run homeless shelters were to turn away those who didn't swear they were members of the Christian religion? Why does God command humans to do so much work to spread his word, to be charitable to the unsaved until they come around, when he could solve the whole mess by simply being equally as charitable as his followers? Isn't it evil to put strings on a gift like salvation from eternal damnation? If you were God, wouldn't you want to save everyone, regardless of whether they accept you, reject you, love you, hate you, blaspheme you, etc. There's something almost nihilistic and Nietzsche-esque about God's attitude. The sort of "long live the strong, screw the weak and let them die" about the entire thing. From a Utilitarian perspective, God is terribly immoral and a hypocrite for posing such a quandry. The right thing to do would be to save everyone, since that's in the greatest interest of the most number of people. IMM is right. What kind of monsterious, sadistic God would let Hitler into heaven while condemning the 6 million Jews Hitler vicariously murdered to eternal damnation? Isn't this example an excellent illustration of what a horrible metric swearing allegience to an idea is for offering a charitable gift, especially one so important as salvation from eternal damnation. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Severian Posted September 1, 2006 Share Posted September 1, 2006 How can you claim God is "infinitely forgiving" if he's unwilling to forgive those who don't ascribe to the Christianity meme? Why does this gift of infinite forgiveness come with strings attached? If they ask for forgiveness they are given it. That doesn't seem to be a terribly onerous 'string' does it? How would America be looked upon if the only Iraqis we offered aid to were ones who swore allegiance to America? Do you think the world would approve if you forced your aid upon Iraqis who wanted nothing to do with you? Or what if Church-run homeless shelters were to turn away those who didn't swear they were members of the Christian religion? God turns no-one away. They only have to come to him. Isn't it evil to put strings on a gift like salvation from eternal damnation? If you were God' date=' wouldn't you want to save everyone, regardless of whether they accept you, reject you, love you, hate you, blaspheme you, etc. [/quote'] Absolutely not. I think it would be evil to force people to do what you want. That would make a mockery of the whole idea of free-will. There's something almost nihilistic and Nietzsche-esque about God's attitude. The sort of "long live the strong, screw the weak and let them die" about the entire thing. I am rather amazed by that. That is entirely the opposite of the Christian perspective: Blessed are the meek' date=' for they will inherit the earth. [/quote'] IMM is right. What kind of monsterious, sadistic God would let Hitler into heaven while condemning the 6 million Jews Hitler vicariously murdered to eternal damnation? The Jews who wouldn't be allowed into heaven would be the Jews who didn't deserve to go to heaven because they had sin. Anyone who asks Jesus to take their sin away, will be let in. Imagine going to a football game, which is alcohol-free. The bouncers on the gate will ask you to discard that bottle of vodka you are carrying. If you refuse, you won't get in. Meanwhile the alcoholic to your left gives up his alcohol and is allowed in. Do you think this is unfair? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JHAQ Posted September 1, 2006 Share Posted September 1, 2006 More to the point was Torquemada a Christian ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mooeypoo Posted September 1, 2006 Share Posted September 1, 2006 Hitler denied the church, though he was very comfortable to take atvantage of the church at the time in finding his prospected victims and bringing them into the death camps. He declared himself an atheist, and claimed he goes by science to prove the Aryan race was superior, through twisting the theory of evolution to fit his goals (the strongest prevail..). He mocked the idea of church, and claimed that ""The government of the Reich ... regards Christianity as the unshakable foundation of the morals and moral code of the nation." (here is one place I saw it quoted). However, his views on the Aryanism actually was derived of religion (which is specifically ironic), since his claims were that the Aryan race was the only one designed purely by god. God was "in the blood" of the Aryan, Hitler claimed, not represented by a church. Though I wouldn't suggest reading it without a tutor (it is a very difficult book, in all terms) here is a page that quotes from Hitler's "Mein Kampf": http://www.mtfreethinkers.org/essays_stories/religion/adolph_hitler.htm Here are a few articles I found out of a very quick search in google: http://www.boundless.org/2001/regulars/kaufman/a0000541.html http://www.bede.org.uk/hitler.htm http://constitutionalistnc.tripod.com/hitler-leftist/nazchris.html ~moo Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
doG Posted September 1, 2006 Share Posted September 1, 2006 this whole thing is obviously pointless to argue about... It's nice to see that someone else got it right Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mike90 Posted September 2, 2006 Share Posted September 2, 2006 One of the hardest things for me to swallow about christianity is this whole beileve in it or your eternally damned concept. So in this day in age with all these different religions your supposed to find the "correct" one or your doomed. This is the concept a divine creator came up with? I dont buy it. what if your jewish, or a buddist, or any one of the many other options? then you are just damned for guessing wrong essentially? And there is more then one religion that tells you if you don't subscribe to their beliefs your screwed. What makes any of these concepts more valid then any other? It cant be how many people beileve in it because then its just a popularity contest. What kind of omnipotent being what put you on earth to spin a roulette wheel, and if your numbers not the lucky one you get fire and brimstone. That is just a beyond idiotic concept imo. On another note i follow no organized religion, but I have my own set of spiritual beliefs and they are important to me. One of those is there are some acts that are just fundamentally evil, and once commited put a stain on your soul that nothing could erase. I don't care how sorry someone is how can you be forgiven for killing millions of people. How could a religion teach that you can basically do whatever you want while in this world as long as you own up and say sorry before you die. what in the **** is that supposed to do. It doesn't bring back those millions of innocent people. And again a supposedly all knowing being came up with these rules? The logic of which a child could poke holes in? It just doesn't seem to make any sense. It all seems rather egocentric to me. "Well feel free to do whatever you want as long as you beileve in me and are really sorry you did it" How can there be any morality then, if any act can be forgiven. Isn't the whole point of morality that you DON'T do certain things because it is wrong to do them. The whole thing smacks of " relative morality" which I just dont beileve in. Some things are just wrong and unforgivable, and you'd tihnk if anything was one of them killing millions would be. Please don't anyone take this as an attack on their religious beliefs btw, as that's not my intent. I am just legitimately confused about how the whole thing is supposed to make any logical sense Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bascule Posted September 3, 2006 Share Posted September 3, 2006 If they ask for forgiveness they are given it. That doesn't seem to be a terribly onerous 'string' does it? Well, I guess I'm going to heaven then, because long ago, I truthfully accepted Jesus Christ into my heart as my personal savior. Do you think the world would approve if you forced your aid upon Iraqis who wanted nothing to do with you? The concept of forcing aid upon people is silly. You think starving people are going to turn down free food, fresh water, and new clothing? God turns no-one away. They only have to come to him. Those who ask, receive. Those who fail to ask, well, **** them, let them burn in hell. Absolutely not. I think it would be evil to force people to do what you want. That would make a mockery of the whole idea of free-will. Okay, the dichotomy we have here is this: 1) Save people from eternal damnation even if they don't want to be saved. If they want to suffer for all eternity, well, you're just going to foist not suffering upon them because you, God, in your infinite wisdom, think that eventually they'll become of the opition that eternal suffering is a Bad Thing 2) Let the people who want to suffer for all eternity suffer for all eternity because you, in your infinite wisdom, decide that the choices they make now reflect upon them forever, and that they should've fallen in line and believed if they really wanted to be saved. And if after 100 years of suffering they realise "Oh my horribly beaten body, I can't imagine an entire eternity like this", well, too bad for them. So what's the greater evil: saving those who don't want it from eternal damnation, or failing to save everyone from eternal damnation? I'm, uhh, gonna go with the latter... The Jews who wouldn't be allowed into heaven would be the Jews who didn't deserve to go to heaven because they had sin. You have sin. Hitler had a hell of a lot of sin. But I guess, per the "join the club if you want in" attitude, Hitler deserves heaven and all the jews he killed deserve hell, because Hitler was an exclusive VIP and the jews, well, they just weren't hip to the trend. Anyone who asks Jesus to take their sin away, will be let in. But only if you ask for forgiveness before you're trying to get in and have, in front of you, absolute proof that the whole proposition isn't just an artefact of superstitious beliefs from an earlier time. It's kind of like the Statue of Liberty... want to go inside? Well you need a ticket you can only get before you took the ferry ride over here. Don't have the ticket? Too bad, you can't get it here. Imagine going to a football game, which is alcohol-free. The bouncers on the gate will ask you to discard that bottle of vodka you are carrying. If you refuse, you won't get in. It's more like you get to a football game, and outside, you run into some college-age types who tell you "Dude, you can't get in with a beer. Here, let me hold it for you, and when you're finished watching the game, I'll give it back to you. I swear that's the case. I'm not going to steal your beer" Meanwhile the alcoholic to your left gives up his alcohol and is allowed in. What if he's not actually a dry alcoholic, but a narc, wanting you to divulge the existence of your open container so they can charge you? Metaphors are fun. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
1veedo Posted September 4, 2006 Share Posted September 4, 2006 George W. Bush is Christian, and he's much worse than Hitler. Ergo, Christians are stupid but maybe not fascist? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aardvark Posted September 5, 2006 Share Posted September 5, 2006 George W. Bush is Christian' date=' and he's much worse than Hitler.[/quote'] Sense of perspective a little skewed today? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mooeypoo Posted September 5, 2006 Share Posted September 5, 2006 George W. Bush is Christian' date=' and he's much worse than Hitler.[/quote']Sense of perspective a little skewed today? Wow, I'd say... that's quite inappropriate, too. ~moo Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
doG Posted September 5, 2006 Share Posted September 5, 2006 George W. Bush is Christian, and he's much worse than Hitler. Just because you failed history class doesn't mean you have to advertise it. Hitler killed millions in gas chambers simply because of their race. That Bush is a moron doesn't equate to this at all. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
1veedo Posted September 6, 2006 Share Posted September 6, 2006 Jesus I wasn't being serious. It was alluding to GutZ's and a couple other peoples' posts earlier in the thread. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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