Time, Consciousness, and Unconsciousness

[Adhanom Andemicael]

Time, Consciousness, and Unconsciousness

 

 

Part I:

Let us consider the following statement:

S1: Unconsciousness can persist for at most zero seconds.

I suggest that this statement is true.

***

Argument:

Let us suppose the following:

- O_A is a conscious observer that exists in spacetime.
- O_A is the only conscious observer that exists in spacetime.
- m1 is the moment "1:00 pm, Jan. 1, 2000."
- m2 is the moment "2:00 pm, Jan. 1, 2000."
- O_A ceases to be conscious at the moment m1.
- O_A does not regain consciousness until the moment m2.
- The time dimension of spacetime does not pass.
- When O_A is unconscious, O_A's subjective time does not pass.

***

Now let us consider the following statements:

S2: Between m1 and m2, time passes for a duration greater than zero seconds.
S3: Between m1 and m2, O_A is unconscious for a duration greater than zero seconds.
S4: Between m1 and m2, O_A is unconscious for at most zero seconds.
S5: When O_A is unconscious, O_A's subjective time does not pass.
S6: O_A can remain unconscious for at most zero seconds.

***

If statement S2 is false, S3 is false. S2 is false. Therefore, S3 is false.(1)

If statement S3 is false, S4 is true. S3 is false. Therefore, S4 is true.

If statement S5 is true, S6 is true. S5 is true. Therefore, S6 is true.

If statement S6 is true, S1 is true. S6 is true. Therefore, S1 is true.(2),(3),(4)

 

Notes:

1. In order for an unconscious state to persist, time has to pass.
2. We tend to think of unconsciousness as a state that can persist. However, unconsciousness is a state that cannot persist.
3. The argument presented above forces us to rethink the nature of consciousness.
4. Unconsciousness can exist for at most one moment (i.e., for at most zero seconds).

 

 

Part II:

 

In order for time flow to occur between m1 and m2, Newton's time must exist. Newton's time does not exist. Therefore, time flow cannot occur between m1 and m2.(1)

***

If consciousness does not exist, time flow does not occur.(2) If time flow does not occur, persistence does not occur. Therefore, if consciousness does not exist, persistence does not occur.

***

If unconsciousness exists, consciousness does not exist. If consciousness does not exist, persistence does not occur. Therefore, if unconsciousness exists, persistence does not occur.

***

Can unconsciousness persist?

A necessary condition for unconsciousness to persist is the following: Persistence must occur while unconsciousness exists. Note however, persistence cannot occur while unconsciousness exists. The answer to the question posed above is therefore "no."

We must conclude that unconsciousness cannot persist.

***

Let us consider the following statements:

S1: O_A's subjective time passes if and only if O_A is conscious.
S2: Between m1 and m2, O_A is not conscious.

S3: Between m1 and m2, O_A's subjective time does not pass.

**

S4: No objective time passes between points in Einstein's time.(3),(4)
S5: m1 and m2 are points in Einstein's time.

S6: No objective time passes between m1 and m2.

**

S7: O_A's subjective time does not pass between m1 and m2.
S8: No objective time passes between m1 and m2.

S9: No time passes between m1 and m2.

***

If S1 and S2 are true, then S3 is true. S1 and S2 are true. Therefore, S3 is true.

If S4 and S5 are true, then S6 is true. S4 and S5 are true. Therefore, S6 is true.

If S7 and S8 are true, then S9 is true. S7 and S8 are true. Therefore, S9 is true.

 

Notes:

1. Newton's time is the only kind of time that can elapse between m1 and m2. Neither Einstein's time nor O_A's subjective time elapses between m1 and m2. (Note: O_A's subjective time elapses if and only if O_A is conscious.)
2. Note: I'm referring to a scenario in which only one conscious observer (i.e., O_A) exists.
3. Einstein's time is static. (It never "passes" or "flows.")
4. The terms "pass," "flow," and "elapse" are synonymous.

 

 

Clarification:

When I say "unconsciousness exists," I mean "no observer is conscious."

***

(Note: If O_A is unconscious, the statement "unconsciousness exists" is true. If O_A is conscious, the statement "unconsciousness exists" is false.)

 

 

 

Part III:

Let us suppose the following:

- O_A is a conscious observer that exists in spacetime.
- O_A is located on Earth and is at rest with respect to the Earth.
- m1 is the moment "12:00 pm, Jan. 1, 2000."
- m2 is the moment "12:00 pm, Jan. 1, 2020."
- O_A ceases to be conscious at the moment m1.
- O_A does not regain consciousness until the moment m2.
- When O_A is unconscious, O_A's subjective time does not pass.(1)
- The time dimension of spacetime does not pass.
- O_B is another conscious observer that exists in spacetime.
- O_B is located on Earth and is at rest with respect to the Earth.
- Between the moments m1 and m2, O_B experiences 20 years of elapsed (subjective) time.
- O_C is a third conscious observer that exists in spacetime.
- O_C is located on Earth and is at rest with respect to the Earth.
- At the moment m1, O_C accelerates to a velocity close to that of light.
- At the moment m2, O_C is at rest with respect to the Earth.
- Between the moments m1 and m2, O_C experiences 10 years of elapsed (subjective) time.

***

Now let us consider the following statement:

S10: Between m1 and m2, O_A is unconscious for zero seconds.

***

I claim that this statement is true.(2),(3),(4),(5),(6)

Notes:

1. O_A's subjective time passes if and only if O_A is conscious.
2. No objective time (OT) passes between the moments m1 and m2. (The total amount of OT that passes between these moments is zero seconds.)
3. O_A's subjective time (STA) does not pass between the moments m1 and m2. (The total amount of STA that passes between these moments is zero seconds.)
4. O_A experiences zero seconds of elapsed time between the moments m1 and m2.
5. O_B and O_C's experiences of temporal passage are subjective experiences.
6. O_B and O_C's subjective experiences do not affect O_A's experience of reality.

 

 

 

Part IV

Let us consider the following statements:

1: Between m1 and m2, STA passes for zero seconds.
2: Between m1 and m2, O_A experiences zero seconds of elapsed subjective time.
3: Between m1 and m2, O_A is unconscious for zero seconds.

**

4: Between m1 and m2, STB passes for 20 years.
5: Between m1 and m2, O_B experiences 20 years of elapsed subjective time.
6: Between m1 and m2, O_A is unconscious for zero seconds.

**

7: Between m1 and m2, STC passes for 10 years.
8: Between m1 and m2, O_C experiences 10 years of elapsed subjective time.
9: Between m1 and m2, O_A is unconscious for zero seconds.

***

Statements 1, 2, and 3 are true from O_A's perspective.

Statements 4, 5 and 6 are true from O_B's perspective.

Statements 7, 8 and 9 are true from O_C's perspective.(1)

***

Here are two more statements for us to consider:

10: O_A is unconscious for 20 years.
11: O_A is unconscious for 10 years.

***

Statement 10 is false from O_B's perspective.(2)

Statement 11 is false from O_C's perspective.(3)

***

 

Please note the following:

- No objective time flow exists.
- Time flow is a subjective phenomenon associated with consciousness.
- In the scenario that I describe, three subjective time flows exist: STA, STB, and STC.
- STB has nothing to say about the duration of O_A's consciousness.(4)
- STB has nothing to say about the duration of O_A's unconsciousness.
- STC has nothing to say about the duration of O_A's consciousness.
- STC has nothing to say about the duration of O_A's unconsciousness.
- Statements 1 through 9 are true from O_A's perspective.
- Statements 1 through 9 are true from O_B's perspective.
- Statements 1 through 9 are true from O_C's perspective.(5)

 

Notes:

1. All three observers claim that O_A is unconscious for zero seconds.
2. O_B has no reason to claim that O_A is unconscious for 20 years.
3. O_C has no reason to claim that O_A is unconscious for 10 years.
4. Subjective time streams exist independently of each other. (See section IV of my paper "Temporal Passage.")
5. Subjective time is an absolute quantity. It is not a quantity that varies depending on the reference frame.

 

 

Part V (Clarification)

Please note the following:

- Three subjective timelines exist: TLA, TLB, and TLC.(1)
- Statements 3, 10, and 11 make claims about TLA.
- Statement 10 makes a claim about TLA that is false from O_B's perspective.
- Statement 10 does not make a claim about TLB.
- Statement 11 does not make a claim about TLC.

***

New statements

Here are two new statements for us to consider:

12: O_B is unconscious for 20 years.
13: O_C is unconscious for 10 years.

***

Statement 12 makes a claim about TLB.

Statement 13 makes a claim about TLC.

Notes:

1. I discuss subjective timelines in my paper "Temporal Passage."

 

 

 

 

Re: Situations and Consciousness

Let us define two situations:

S1: A situation in which consciousness exists.(1)
S2: A situation in which consciousness does not exist.

***

Now let us consider the following two statements:

A. If consciousness exists, S1 exists.(2)
B. If consciousness does not exist, S2 exists.(3),(4),(5)

***

I claim that these two statements are true. 

Notes:

1. The terms "situation," "scenario," and "state of affairs" are synonymous.
2. Suppose consciousness exists. Then a situation exists. (The situation that exists is that consciousness exists.)
3. Suppose consciousness does not exist. Then a situation exists. (The situation that exists is that consciousness does not exist.)
4. In my articles, I refer to situation S2 as "unconsciousness."
5. S2 (i.e., "unconsciousness") can persist for at most zero seconds.

 

 

 

Unconsciousness

What is "unconsciousness"?

"Unconsciousness" is by definition a situation. It is a situation in which consciousness does not exist.(1)

Notes:

1. The situation we call "unconsciousness" can persist for at most zero seconds.

 

 

 

Please don't advertise your website here!

 

Adhanom Andemicael
andemicaela@yahoo.com

Edited December 10, 2022 by Phi for All
commercial link removed by moderator

[Markus Hanke]

3 hours ago, Adhanom Andemicael said:

- The time dimension of spacetime does not pass.

Yes it does - he ages into the future regardless of whether he is aware of that or not. Even if the subject in question is the only observer, all he needs to do is measure the ratio of naturally occurring radioisotopes in his very own body before and after the period of unconsciousness, and it will be obvious to him that objective time has passed while he was ‘out’. The human body is essentially a giant clock in that sense, and this is an easy experiment to perform. Also, if he was out for long enough (eg in a long-term coma after serious head trauma), the fact will be rather obvious to him from the deterioration of muscle and bone when he reawakens, even without isotope measurements.

From a physics point of view, all particles trace out world lines in spacetime, meaning they always age into the future, even if they remain static and stationary with respect to some reference point.

PS. It is quite unwise to post your email address publicly on the Internet for anyone to read and any bot to harvest, unless you want your inbox to get inundated with spam.

[Adhanom Andemicael]

31 minutes ago, Markus Hanke said:

Yes it does - he ages into the future regardless of whether he is aware of that or not. Even if the subject in question is the only observer, all he needs to do is measure the ratio of naturally occurring radioisotopes in his very own body before and after the period of unconsciousness, and it will be obvious to him that objective time has passed while he was ‘out’. The human body is essentially a giant clock in that sense, and this is an easy experiment to perform. Also, if he was out for long enough (eg in a long-term coma after serious head trauma), the fact will be rather obvious to him from the deterioration of muscle and bone when he reawakens, even without isotope measurements.

From a physics point of view, all particles trace out world lines in spacetime, meaning they always age into the future, even if they remain static and stationary with respect to some reference point.

PS. It is quite unwise to post your email address publicly on the Internet for anyone to read and any bot to harvest, unless you want your inbox to get inundated with spam.

Physical time cannot pass.

***

Dates (e.g., Jan. 1, Jan. 2, etc.) are simply locations in time. Dates do not move through time. And as we know, time itself does not "move" or "go" anywhere.

It is conceivable that consciousness somehow flows relative to physical time. However, physical time itself cannot flow or pass.

I suggest a model for time flow in my paper "Temporal Passage."

 

 

Adhanom Andemicael

[studiot]

5 hours ago, Adhanom Andemicael said:

Time, Consciousness, and Unconsciousness

 

Quote

exist and existence

 

I fail to see a definition or explanation of what you mean by any of these four terms you are playing with words with.

 

5 hours ago, Adhanom Andemicael said:

Let us suppose the following:

- O_A is a conscious observer that exists in spacetime.
- O_A is the only conscious observer that exists in spacetime.

You start of with the premise that spacetime and by implication time exists.

Yet in your second post you claim

27 minutes ago, Adhanom Andemicael said:

Physical time cannot pass.

***

Dates (e.g., Jan. 1, Jan. 2, etc.) are simply locations in time. Dates do not move through time. And as we know, time itself does not "move" or "go" anywhere.

It is conceivable that consciousness somehow flows relative to physical time. However, physical time itself cannot flow or pass.

I suggest a model for time flow in my paper "Temporal Passage."

You need to post proper derivation and discussion of this claim here not on any linked website  -  Those are the rules here.

Are you claiming that time does not exist ?

What is the difference between what you call 'time' and what you call 'physical time'  ?

Since you have distinguished 'physical time' are there any other sorts of time and, if so, are they relevant to your argument ?

Edited December 10, 2022 by studiot

[Adhanom Andemicael]

1 hour ago, studiot said:

 

 

I fail to see a definition or explanation of what you mean by any of these four terms you are playing with words with.

 

You start of with the premise that spacetime and by implication time exists.

Yet in your second post you claim

You need to post proper derivation and discussion of this claim here not on any linked website  -  Those are the rules here.

Are you claiming that time does not exist ?

What is the difference between what you call 'time' and what you call 'physical time'  ?

Since you have distinguished 'physical time' are there any other sorts of time and, if so, are they relevant to your argument ?

I refer to the "fourth dimension of spacetime" as "Einstein's time," "physical time," "objective time," and "time." (I use these terms interchangeably.) 

Dates (e.g., Jan. 1, Jan. 2, etc.) are points in the fourth dimension of spacetime. (They are points in Einstein's time.)

Einstein's time exists. However, it does not pass. (It is static.)

Einstein's time isn't the only type of time that exists. A second type of time exists: Subjective (mental) time.

Unlike Einstein's time, subjective (mental) time passes (flows). 

By "time flow" and "temporal passage," I mean the "flow of subjective (mental) time."

 

 

Adhanom Andemicael

[studiot]

15 minutes ago, Adhanom Andemicael said:

I refer to the "fourth dimension of spacetime" as "Einstein's time," "physical time," "objective time," and "time." (I use these terms interchangeably.) 

That's a good way to confuse you readers, but thank you for the reply.

Talking of reading, I listed four undefined terms, you have only answered about one of them.

 

15 minutes ago, Adhanom Andemicael said:

Dates (e.g., Jan. 1, Jan. 2, etc.) are points in the fourth dimension of spacetime. (They are points in Einstein's time.)

No they can't be. Dates have a reference zero.

It is one of the basics of relativity that there is no such thing as a reference zero.

 

By the way, welcome and please note new members are allowed a total of 5 posts in their first 24 hours as a very effictive anti spam measure.

So use your last one wisely, (I can happily wait another day for my next answer).

[Markus Hanke]

2 hours ago, Adhanom Andemicael said:

Physical time cannot pass.

I think you are using a different definition of ‘time’.

In physics, not only can it pass, but it must do so by definition - time in this particular context is simply what clocks measure, and this is the definition I am using here. As such, everything always ages into the future, always and inevitably. That is precisely what “time passes” refers to in this context - the ageing of a physical system into the future, as measured by a comoving clock in its own reference frame. Thus, the body (as a physical system) is no longer in the same state when your subject awakens as it was when they fell unconscious. Time “passing” means that the co-moving clock has advanced.

If you are using a different definition of time than physics does, then that’s fine (I know there are a few other possibilities), but you need to be explicit about which one it is you are using, because these concepts are not interchangeable.

2 hours ago, Adhanom Andemicael said:

Dates (e.g., Jan. 1, Jan. 2, etc.) are simply locations in time. Dates do not move through time.

Of course. No one would claim such a thing. Your birthday is in the past, isn’t it? It hasn’t “moved through time” with you. 

The point though is that physical systems evolve (age) into the future irrespective of whether they are conscious or not, in the sense that a clock comoving with that system will inevitably advance. 

41 minutes ago, Adhanom Andemicael said:

A second type of time exists: Subjective (mental) time.

Yes, but this is useless for the purpose of doing physics, because there’s no physical instrument that can measure this in a repeatable and objective way. It isn’t even reliable for the observer himself, because the sense of subjective time is just a model constructed by the brain (as is the entirety of the “flow of experience”), and as such it can get distorted or fail in all manner of ways, eg through disturbances in brain chemistry, or as the result of particular types of brain injury (dyschronometria). The same is true for the sense of space, btw.

3 hours ago, Adhanom Andemicael said:

It is conceivable that consciousness somehow flows relative to physical time.

I don’t know what this means, because physical time isn’t a ‘thing’ or a valid point of reference relative to which anything could flow; it’s just part of a map of events that we call ‘spacetime’. Are you claiming that consciousness is an ontological entity separate from spacetime and the particles/fields that live on it?

[Adhanom Andemicael]

5 hours ago, studiot said:

That's a good way to confuse you readers, but thank you for the reply.

Talking of reading, I listed four undefined terms, you have only answered about one of them.

 

No they can't be. Dates have a reference zero.

It is one of the basics of relativity that there is no such thing as a reference zero.

 

By the way, welcome and please note new members are allowed a total of 5 posts in their first 24 hours as a very effictive anti spam measure.

So use your last one wisely, (I can happily wait another day for my next answer).

Thank you for your questions. 

Several readers asked questions requiring long, detailed answers.

The best way for me to address these questions is to do the following:

- Post the text of my paper "Temporal Passage" in this forum.
- Upload the pdf version of the paper to this forum so that readers can view the three (simple) line-diagrams that appear in the text/paper.
- Post some additional clarifying text.

***

I'd like to post this material in this forum. 

***

May I post this material? (The forum rules seem to allow it.)

 

 

Adhanom Andemicael

[swansont]

14 minutes ago, Adhanom Andemicael said:

May I post this material? (The forum rules seem to allow it.)

 

!

Moderator Note

The rules require that you post the material for discussion.