What is Bush playing at????

[CPL.Luke]

they had 48 hours warning, moving people into the city then would have been very unfortunate, as you put more people at risk from the storm.

[j_p]

YT, it is 5 days after the hurricane; most of the problems are being caused by the flood. The disaster did NOT 'occur' five days ago; it has been occurring for the last five days.

 

Check out this article from the LA Times:

http://www.latimes.com/news/nationworld/nation/la-na-levee2sep02,1,6468899.story

[YT2095]

all the more reason to haul a$$ and get it sorted, is this the 1`st hurricane the US has ever seen, do they not know what happens after or something?

sounds like alot of excuses to me.

[CPL.Luke]

normally the water goes away, this is the one unique situation where the water stays (because of the geographical location of new orleans)

 

 

 

also the army core of engineers has a plan to get the water out, they are going to seel the levi on one side and blow out the levi on the other, apparently the other side is lower than the side thats flooded now, so by blowing the other levi the water should poor out over the next couple of days.

 

on a related note, convoys of soldiers and supplies have reached the convention center through the use of amphibious vehicles.

 

also there is a line of several hundred busses entering the stadium to remove the people from that area.

[YT2095]

also the army core of engineers has a plan to get the water out' date=' they are going to seel the levi on one side and blow out the levi on the other, apparently the other side is lower than the side thats flooded now, so by blowing the other levi the water should poor out over the next couple of days.

 

on a related note, convoys of soldiers and supplies have reached the convention center through the use of amphibious vehicles.

 

also there is a line of several hundred busses entering the stadium to remove the people from that area.[/quote']

 

well for the top part of the post "About time" springs to mind.

 

now your "related notes", when is this happening? today?

[Lance]

well' date=' he had X amount of days to know it was coming, forces should have been in that area before landfall (for a start).

I should NOT be seeing ANY of what I`ve seen today on live TV after 5 days, NON of it.

sure houses smashed to matchsticks etc... will take months or years to put right, but the People, the TAX payers.... naah it`s well wrong![/quote']

 

I still don't understand, where would the troops have went? If they were in New Orleans they would have been skewered on top of telephone lines and crushed against brick walls. That's like saying we should mass our troops at a point we know a nuclear bomb is going to explode.

 

We didn't even have that much preparation time, YT2095. When Katrina passed over Florida it was a category 1.

 

The biggest problem is that we just don't have any way to get the people out. The only way would have been by helicopter which was being done until the rioting started. Now most of the New Orleans police are quiting and leaving; I can't say I blame them either. Can you Imagen trying to help the people in your home town only to have many of them shoot you? And I don't just mean random panicked shooting, a member of the national guard was shot in the leg when he was attempting to evacuate people from the superdome.

 

This is just a bad situation, one of the largest storms in history hit the most vulnerable port in the gulf. London didn't sink 20' below the ocean after it was bombed. It wasn't completely destroyed either which is why you see new buildings mixed in with the old.

[Pangloss]

Why have you ignored the points I posted earlier in response to your ranting?

 

- The aerial rescue effort has been incredible -- 5,000 people rescued via helicopter, possibly the largest number in one event ever in the history of the world

- FEMA was on the ground in Louisiana and Mississippi BEFORE THE HURRICANE STRUCK

- State AND Federally-lead rescues were being conducted the night of and the morning after the hurricane

- Alabama's power is almost fully restored

- Mississippi's power is back on to all rescue areas and any areas not destroyed

- All victims in Mississippi and Alabama are in powered shelters receiving food and water

- Half a million victims from Louisiana are in powered shelters receiving food and water

 

The national guard was on the ground THE DAY OF THE HURRICANE.

 

The only issue here appears to be the numbers and the logistics -- bigger than they thought it would be. I have no problem with saying that mistakes were made. My objection is to your drawing of POLITICAL conclusions based on a complete and utter LACK OF EVIDENCE.

 

May I just remind you of a couple of your statements in this thread?

 

where`s the Army? oh yeah my bad, Off getting Oil in Iraq

turns out that he had to cut his FIVE WEEK holliday short by 2 days as well

Bravo Mr President!

sounds like alot of excuses to me.

 

And these utter falsehoods which I have thoroughly debunked above:

 

5 days later and NOTHING has been done on any appreciable level

where`s FEMA too?

I should NOT be seeing ANY of what I`ve seen today on live TV after 5 days, NON of it.

 

I'm telling you, you need to calm down and stop leaping to conclusions based on your political ideology. The people of New Orleans need HELP, and YOU are POLITICIZING their tragedy. Why are you doing that, sir? Why?

 

Jean Charles de Menezes, YT. Jean Charles de Menezes.

 

 

By the way:

coz I know for an absolute fact that if it was the UK, it would have been seen to within 24 hours!

 

Given that the present disaster is the SIZE OF THE ENTIRE COUNTRY OF BRITAIN, I seriously doubt that's the case. But you're welcome to your illusions.

[Pangloss]

I apologize for the "Brit" comment, by the way. I didn't mean that to come across in such a perjorative fashion. I just don't understand where you're coming from in attacking Bush on this subject, or why this is on the politics board, etc. But I didn't mean to insult you.

[YT2095]

WTF are you on about this Charles de menzes for, you`re either off your rocker or off topic, which is it?

 

as for my Political agenda, I have non, so again, you`re making things up *sigh*.

 

I`ve heard of Cut`n`paste, but Cut`n`paste`n` mix is a new one to me, prolly something else you guys do to twist the truth for denial purposes

 

as for " POLITICIZING their tragedy" I`m making it Public, what`s up? Truth hurt?

yeah this is in Politics thread and why not, isn`t it your "leader" that`s supposed to sort these things at home?

isn`t he in Politics? or does his near self proclaimed "Figurehead" status suit him as an easier option?

[john5746]

Even Bush is saying he isn't happy with the results so far. I still maintain that having the full National Guard force in LA and MS would have helped the situation. This is one cost of the Iraq war. We could have another disaster tomorrow or next week. They are useful resources that need to be brought back home as soon as possible. I would say the same for relief efforts for the Tsunami situation or others. You can't just keep them there as if they have no other purpose.

 

Apparently, no one has an escape plan for a flooded city or emergency evacuation plans for a city. I guess you just tell everyone to leave and fend for themselves.

[Thomas Kirby]

This is where we had better learn the true meaning of the term "emergency preparedness." It is not like storms like this are not predictable. Last year missed only by not having such an intense storm. The federal funds were allocated to fix the levee and then Bush took a lot of that and gave it to Halliburton.

 

We've just lost the war in Iraq all over again. More people will have died than at the WTC. More of our people than died in Iraq. It was allegedly to protect American lives, although the weapons of mass destruction thing was proven to be an outright lie and Bush admits that it was somehow about oil even though he used to deny that, and a lot of people don't even think it was wrong. Saddam would have sold us oil at half price just before the invasion. We could have cheap gas and a lot of resources to help the people who need help now. We can't send in more troops because their hardware and a lot of them are over there, doing nothing of use to us. We couldn't repair the dikes because money, hardware, and manpower are over there. Some of those helicopters that we don't have here can pick up a thousand cases of bottled water at a time where it's dry and have them there in an hour or less, or pick them up in Kansas if they have to and run them down there, with refueling stops. A lot of the hardware that we sent over there can airlift bridges in.

 

Some people want to interpret this as a political agenda, but we have a President who fraudulently sent us to war, prevented a major city from getting the repairs it needed before the inevitable storm flooded it, can't even talk (I saw him on CNN yesterday, it was embarassing), and doesn't seem to understand when he messes up. There are very few ways that he could make a worse disaster than he already is, and don't anyone give him any ideas. Never mind the politics and the "no Bush bashing" thing, we're in big trouble. The poor man needs to be put back on his farm and someone who can do his job needs to do it.

[Pangloss]

WTF are you on about this Charles de menzes for' date=' you`re either off your rocker or off topic, which is it?

[/quote']

 

I'm referring to the fact that we all felt it was better to wait than to immediately condemn the London police for killing that man. You, on the other hand, have leapt right to condemning Bush over a domestic matter (which affects you not at all), without even waiting for the situation to be fully understood.

 

 

as for my Political agenda, I have non, so again, you`re making things up *sigh*.

I`ve heard of Cut`n`paste, but Cut`n`paste`n` mix is a new one to me, prolly something else you guys do to twist the truth for denial purposes

 

I'm making things up?

- You started this thread

- You started it on the politics board

- You filled this thread with comments about Iraq, Bush's vacation, and more

 

I dare you to say that again with a straight face.

 

 

as for " POLITICIZING their tragedy" I`m making it Public, what`s up? Truth hurt?

yeah this is in Politics thread and why not, isn`t it your "leader" that`s supposed to sort these things at home?

isn`t he in Politics? or does his near self proclaimed "Figurehead" status suit him as an easier option?

 

(shrug) I rest my case. I don't think you would have liked it if someone had blamed the London bombings on Tony Blair five days after they took place. Yet here you are rubbing it in about Bush (a man I didn't even vote for in 2004, yet here you are accusing me of being a Bush apologist).

 

 

 

To clarify, I have no problem with the notion that something has gone wrong. Obviously those people stuck in New Orleans have waited entirely too long for a sufficient force of guard units to arrive, and there's clearly not enough management in place.

 

My objection is to the politicization of the issue without a shred of evidence that it's a political matter. That's shameful, and I predict you will eventually be embarassed by the fact that you started this thread, probably right about the time you realize that this is a two-way street you're driving down.

[Pangloss]

For the record, I formally and strenuously object to this thread.

 

It is completely inappropriate, inhumanly crass, blatantly partisan, deeply offensive, and totally off the hook to have this discussion on the political board at this time.

[insane_alien]

its not like moving an army to where a nuclear bomb is going to go off. it like moving an army near to where a nuclear bomb is going to go off but far enough away so they will suffer no ill effects but they are prepared to move in to help survivors.

[YT2095]

1)I'm referring to the fact that we all felt it was better to wait than to immediately condemn the London police for killing that man. You' date=' on the other hand, have leapt right to condemning Bush over a domestic matter (which affects you not at all), without even waiting for the situation to be fully understood.

 

2)I'm making things up?

a)- You started this thread

b)- You started it on the [i']politics[/i] board

c)- You filled this thread with comments about Iraq, Bush's vacation, and more

I dare you to say that again with a straight face.

 

3) (shrug) I rest my case. I don't think you would have liked it if someone had blamed the London bombings on Tony Blair five days after they took place. Yet here you are rubbing it in about Bush (a man I didn't even vote for in 2004, yet here you are accusing me of being a Bush apologist).

 

4)To clarify, I have no problem with the notion that something has gone wrong. Obviously those people stuck in New Orleans have waited entirely too long for a sufficient force of guard units to arrive, and there's clearly not enough management in place.

 

5)My objection is to the politicization of the issue without a shred of evidence that it's a political matter. That's shameful, and I predict you will eventually be embarassed by the fact that you started this thread, probably right about the time you realize that this is a two-way street you're driving down.

 

1. plenty of time "Waiting" has already elapsed.

2. yes

2.a indeed I did.

2.b as above.

2.c with a straight face yes I did that also, and retract non of it (although "filled this thread" is a bit of an exageration on your part again).

 

3. no one blamed the Hurricane on Bush? get a grip will ya!

4. aha! we agree on Something

5. 2-way street??? yeah, whatever, I`m sure You understand at least

as for the rest, yes it IS a political matter, and I`ve SEEN the evidence (again I ask you, are these Actors paid to make it look bad on LIVE tv?).

as for embasasment, Naah, I think your countrys "Powers that Be" have done plenty enough of that for All of us, I don`t regret a word of it!

[Thomas Kirby]

For the record' date=' I [b']formally[/b] and strenuously object to this thread.

 

It is completely inappropriate, inhumanly crass, blatantly partisan, deeply offensive, and totally off the hook to have this discussion on the political board at this time.

 

I disagree.

 

Our government is currently refusing offers of aid from Canada. They could have saved numerous lives. There is the chance to save lives right now if someone will change their minds, and we need to know this right now. We also need to realize that the kind of incompetence that is killing the rest of New Orleans right now is an ongoing thing. We need to realize that it really is conservative policy and conservative ego that is doing this. They've known that those levees were broken for a very long time. They've known for a long time that this is the kind of thing that you don't let go of if you intend to protect lives. We've been letting New Orleans rot for a long time. The oil companies are doing fine and don't need the help that Bush has given them. New Orleans is dying and taking the country down a ways with it.

[Thomas Kirby]

The government allowed this kind of mess to happen, forced this kind of mess to happen, and by refusing aid from other countries, is still forcing it to become worse. This is a government that needs to be out of office, period, full stop, don't let the door hit them from behind on the way out, get our people home and take care of our country.

[Pangloss]

Aid was refused from Canada (and 19 other nations) temporarily because the problem is not the amount of aid, but rather the logistical difficulties of getting it into place, the security of aid workers in New Orleans, and the lack of sufficient local management on the scene.

 

It's notable that the countries affected by the tsunami did exactly the same thing, for exactly the same reasons.

 

This is not a political issue. The country is not "going down". The sky is not falling. But if it makes you and YT feel better to wear tin foil hats, you go right ahead.

 

This has nothing to do with President Bush, the problems of the oil industry, the war in Iraq, Democrats or Republicans, and you people should be ashamed of making a political issue out of people's suffering merely so that you could make an ideological, partisan statement about Bush.

 

For shame. Frankly if someone had done that about Britains 7/7 attack, that person would have had no end of scorn heaped upon them. But because it's about Bush, anything goes. Political correctness at its finest.

[Thomas Kirby]

Yes, any statement that says that Bush did wrong, to you, is a partisan political statement. This isn't about politics. This is about stopping the downhill slide.

[Pangloss]

Sure, sure, I'm a Bush partisan, in spite of the fact that I voted for Kerry in 2004, opposed the Iraq war, oppose intelligence design, favor abortion rights, oppose religion in schools, etc etc etc etc etc. Yeah, I'm just a Bush partisan, that must be it.

 

All of which cleverly obfuscates the fact that you've turned an event of massive human suffering into a crass, superficial political issue.

[Thomas Kirby]

Horse manure. Bush has been running an "anything goes" support team for big oil, Halliburton's war machine, and the religious wrong for his entire presidency. The Patriot act has mostly been used to attack pornographers, for crying out loud, sending anti-terrorist resources in to deal with some fat computer nerd and a bunch of video tapes. There is no one who he influences who I have seen employ a lick of sense about anything.

[Pangloss]

Horse manure. Bush has been running an "anything goes" support team for big oil, Halliburton's war machine, and the religious wrong for his entire presidency. The Patriot act has mostly been used to attack pornographers, for crying out loud, sending anti-terrorist resources in to deal with some fat computer nerd and a bunch of video tapes. There is no one who he influences who I have seen employ a lick of sense about anything.

 

And that has what, exactly, to do with the disaster in New Orleans?

 

Please explain to us the political "win" for President Bush to let everyone in New Orleans die horribly, alone and unaided?

 

 

 

 

"The strong are weaker than the meak

because they think before they speak."

- Mozart, The Magic Flute

[Dave]

Personally, I don't see the problem with this thread. However, this is obviously a sore point. I'm going to close it, and I expect that the topic will probably come up at a later date.