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About cladking

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  1. No. Science doesn't even have a working definition of "consciousness". This is as far removed from experiment as is "soul". "Consciousness" at this time is in the realm of philosophy.
  2. You're assuming you know what consciousness and free will are and that it takes place in the brain. The nature of living things is predetermined but not the behavior. Given the exact same conditions two individuals will behave differently. Certainly the individual being born had few choices but the kicking and screaming are more about the rigors of birth than the horror of conception. And then we each always have an out even where that out runs contrary to our natures.
  3. Any free will expressed by spermatozoa or ova is wholly independent of us or our consciousness. We didn't and wouldn't exist until we actually did when two specific ones became a zygote. They no longer existed at all by this time.
  4. You seem to be assuming a spermatozoon has no consciousness and no free will. You are also assuming that ova drop by mere chance alone. I'm guessing you also think that babies are born when they're "done" rather than by consensus.
  5. cladking


    It's been tough but I've survived so far.
  6. What any individual believes has no bearing on whether or not free will exists. It's irrelevant whether or not a Deity exists. If there's no free will what is stopping people from harming themselves? There are plenty of miserable people yet very few wait for the train on its tracks.
  7. You can be quite certain there is free will. Reality is an infinite number of orders of magnitude too chaotic for consciousness to be driven by any sort of chemical reaction or mechanical process. The belief in preordination and predeterminism is caused by a belief in perception and physical "law". Apropos of nothing in particular you'll never see anyone who believes there is no free will lie down in front of a train to prove his point.
  8. The schools have failed due to lack of responsibility and lack of standards. This means many individuals are less capable of understanding or recognizing real science. This even applies to scientists to greater or lesser extent depending on the specific individual. Far worse is that specialization occurs earlier and earlier so those individuals who become journalists (entertainers) often can't tell real science from the latest fad among the educated. They often don't care if something is actual science or something that will generate ad revenue so "soup of the day science" was born. It is called "science" to give it a mystique among their uneducated readers but it is no more real science than most of the other Look and See Science that is derived from opinion and the belief in the correctness of expert opinion. I don't believe the real threat here is ignorance and belief in silly science. The real threat is most of these people would have had a religion to provide some sort of moral compass a century ago. Now they are adrift believing in any nonsense that comes down the pike and ripe for some leader who might use them for his own ends. Real science won every battle and lost the war.
  9. Theory can only be overruled or disproven by experiment. There is always ample evidence against theory to question it but it requires experiment to show it is wrong. For instance a stone rolling down a hill doesn't fall straight down as theory predicts. An experiment showing something doesn't fall straight to the center of gravity without intervening forces or objects would disprove our theory of gravity. Of course such a thing has never been never observed under controlled conditions.
  10. Could natural selection tell us the purpose of our motivations and instincts? Far more likely is motivations and instincts could tell us the purpose of evolution.
  11. Metaphysics is expressed in words and models. Anything beyond metaphysics necessarily must consider these words and models as well as their meanings and perspectives.
  12. How can words be off topic in a discussion about meta metaphysics? I suppose to the degree words affect actions in other people they are "real". Words are deconstructed. Ideas are not... ...at least until they are communicated in words.
  13. Eise referred to "vague ideas" and I know no other words to describe the subject than i am using. If anyone has other ideas about metaphysics and metametaphysics then I'm all ears. I believe we must assume NOTHING in reality is "magical" or we would get bogged down in lines of research that are dead-ends or not reproducible. This even applies to all things for which we lack even a working definition like "consciousness" and our ability to communicate ideas through language. We tend to assume others take our meaning on all things but this is never the case. Every sentence is deconstructed differently by every individual.
  14. Yes. Exactly. Words and abstractions have no real existence. They are to help us think and communicate. But I would maintain that "ideas" are a product of the brain that are "real". Ideas are a product of consciousness which can underlie the invention of hypothesis, experiment formation, and invention. They can be made manifest in the concrete world while mere words can be immaterial and irrelevant to all of reality. You can say the sun goes down art 4:22 today but the world will still be turning just before and just after it "does". Definitions and axioms are reasonably well defined in science so "metaphysics" isn't so much an issue. But we do tend to forget that there is some individual variation in understanding these terms and much more variation in model formation. We believe there is a tendency for those who build the most realistic models to be more likely to devise good hypothesis and experiment but this is hardly a certainty in the last half century. I simply believe this might no longer be true because we've reached a point that our models are overly dependent on perspective. It is this perspective which is a product of language (the way we think and communicate) that is meta metaphysics. Rather than seeing reality our models are increasingly dependent on the perspective of the "builder". The model is the perspective of the builder. There are numerous ways to deal with this but it requires a recognition of the problem to even begin. I should have used the word "idea". I meant words in the sense of a "thought". All life uses ideas to maintain its existence. Whether it is fleeing a predator or looking for a place to build a nest an individual can invent an idea that will save its life or assure the continuation of its genes in its offspring. I'd certainly agree most scientists are in reasonably close agreement. I don't think this applies well to laymen.
  15. You believe some abstraction lies at the root of metaphysics but this can't be true because we each have different ideas and even different definitions for words. "Abstractions" don't exist in the real world and even numbers are abstractions. We know what "metaphysics" is. So what is beyond "metaphysics? Someone can claim it is some abstraction like "consciousness" or "God" but the only thing that is real and palpable that lies beyond metaphysics are the very words we each must use to understand, think about, or communicate ideas about metaphysics. It is the words we use to define what it is and how even these words have slightly different meanings to every thinker, speaker, and listener. If we hardly agree on why science works or on the means by which the process of science works then what is the meaning of science at all? Perhaps the problem here is as often the case that we are talking about different definitions for "metaphysics". There is no "magic" and no abstraction that makes science work. It is a mere tool that works because the real world, that which is palpable, discloses itself in well crafted experiment. Experiment certainly isn't magic either. We must use words to speak of this tool and why it works. Somebody needed words to invent the tool. Before that somebody invented the words.
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