raphaelh42

dimreepr you are mistaken about what you just said but maybe you are right, and i don't want to see the truth, maybe i prefer to lie to myself, to feel less sad and less afraid maybe i'm just a frustrated person, and you, you are better than me, you, you know the truth

@swansont You forgot to mention the people in wheeling chair who can't do it either I think your life is richer in art, goods, services, entertainments, yes I don't consider the need to breath to be a barrier to freedom, unlike the need to have money to eat I said all I had to say regarding about how to reach what is in my opinion the best/raw/pure freedom I wish you all happiness

In fact it's simple, what do you think is more free, a wild animal or a human in society? With knowledge, and remoteness, a human can live like a wild animal i'm not saying to be free you have to spend your life alone in the wild, i'm saying that to reach pure freedom, you need to be able to do it that wouldn't prevent you from going in society when you want to to enjoy what it has to offer that wouldn't prevent you from staying all the time in society if you prefer to be in it

I wouldn't want to sleep in a forest owned by an individual, in France where i live there are public forests (either managed by the government, either by the municipalities), and it's forbidden to sleep there with a tent In some rare places, you're allowed to "bivouac", you have to pack up your stuff before like 8AM, and not allowed to deploy before like 9PM, and you can't do it more than like 2 days in a row I guess I don't need to precise if making a campfire is allowed or not, neither if you are allowed or not to cut trees to build shelter... I made some researches, these laws seems to be applied by all governments worldwide In fact it gets more clear to me now, I guess people don't give a damn about practicing that, so for them, freedom occurs obviously in society, like everything else fate made me take some marginal path, it has pros and cons I can just enjoy remoteness while there is still some

In my case it's mostly being able to build shelters without having to pay for the land Like make nice camps, make fire, sleep there... Fish without needing a license...

I guess we all have things we want to do when living in society but are not free to do because it's illegal what is it in your case? everyone feel free to share :)

None of the one you mentioned There is the freedom alone in the wild, where it's about knowledge to be comfortable And there is the the freedom in society, where it's about adapting to gov's rules I acknowledged in my first message that society has enjoyable art and tools to offer, and i also acknowledged that having friends and love is great. I think a lion that has no other choice but to be alone, is sad. And i believe a human that has no other choice than being with others, is not free

Did you have a bag full of tools like i had? In that case, I agree it can be quite accessible to spend the time comfortably If you didn't, i would love to hear about how you did meet your basic needs Yes unfortunately even with just a disabled arm, i don't think you could achieve the concept of freedom i evoked I know if you can somehow hack your brain/convince yourself of something, nothing is more powerful than that In my case i'm not interested about that, i think if tomorrow my body got very damaged,i would not be interested in living anymore and i would try to intentionally die, if i have the chance to even be able to move to achieve it. If i had children, i would probably want to stay alive to still try to help them I guess i should have say the "raw" freedom instead of "real"... I wanted to explain a freedom that is not a package of concessions to remain with others

If we all 8 billion suddenly wanted to go in the Amazon rainforest to do that yes i agree that would be a problem but that is not the case, most people want to live in cities and villages I totally disagree, if believe that if you have the knowledge, you can be able to live comfortably in the Amazon, without owning the land where you sleep and hunt, because it's very huge there I agree that probably regularly you could see some garimpeiros, more rarely some forest rangers, and some natives who think you are evil But you will see nobody most of the time for consecutive days If the real freedom came with no price, which a part of it is danger, that would be too easy, and when it's too easy, it doesn't seem to pay ########## ########## ########## I agree I haven't and I struggle to imagine how ones can if not knowing to live alone in the wild In fact i guess i just can't understand how you can really feel happy and free in society if you can live only thanks to it I totally agree, I shouldn't have talked about living in society, and stayed focused just on freedom Hmm in the end I guess there is two main types of freedom, the one in society which evolves according to what the others do (which imo is not really freedom but just trying to feel free) And the other one which occurs when alone in the wild, which i called real freedom here

Hmm this is something i feel I see everyday, everyone wants to be happy and free, but i feel people only want to achieve inside society/civilization And to leave in society, you need money, it's like the "pass" to be in So I conclude people want to reach freedom only thanks to money, and this is what frustrates me, and makes me feel lonely Hmm honestly no I feel more secure, less danger, when i'm in society During my experiment of the real freedom, each steps, i spent many energy to watch out for snakes not to die, but i felt really free Or no, i felt ~75% free, because if i didn't have the tools in my bagpack, obtained thanks to money, i couldn't have practice But I know that thanks to the knowledge i currently miss, i could have spend the time even more comfortably, with 0 tools, e.g. i wouldn't have need a lighter if i knew how to make friction fire I'm not sure to understand, freedom makes no sense when alone? I could try to do whatever I want, maybe i would fail and struggle for everything And i could not see people when i want to, hmm i guess it would be freedom yes, but it would be sad to know you have no choice to remain alone forever because nobody else exists I totally agree!! ^^ Btw I recommend this hilarious tv series: The Last Man on Earth

Yes I acknowledged in my first post that all lands on earth are claimed by governments, and that in some places it's so big and remote that police can't see you to enforce govs' rules, allowing you to imo reach the biggest freedom Yes I agree but my experience of the concept/way of freedom (let's call it real freedom here) I did share is not the thing to debate about, the thing is the real freedom itself I don't believe I should have shared this concept only when managing to practice it completely, with no tools at all I disagree, i think it is not, I evoked a concept, the concept is the subject, not my experience of it We can debate about the real freedom i mentioned but I will not about the fact I practice it good or bad, or not at all And i didn't say people should do it, i just shared an idea, an opinion, and until now it seems nobody offered a better/bigger concept of freedom than the one I shared And I made the sacrifice, I struggled a lot to learn the basics, and once again, the idea is not to spent your life like that, but to debate about the fact of learning to do it, to reach the real freedom

I think the most suited place to practice that is the amazon rainforest because: it's huge, you could always go further/deeper if you ever encounter police (yes you could also encounter a killer and have no signal to call them so they save you lol) you can't die from freezing no matter the period of the year (but i understood you can get hypothermia if you stay under the rain too long) there is a lot of water to fish (but beware of contaminated places because of garimpeiros) there is animals to hunt and wild edibles to find some people drink some creeks' water directly when they know it's ok (but you can and should learn to build a water filter from scratch, and recipient to boil from scratch too) if you want cleaner water, then there is alaska i guess, but it's not suited for our (new?) bodies because without fire/big clothes, you just die...... you need big preparation/knowledge to prevent troubles because of insects (and even some spiky trees it seems), i think the only animal who could/would really kill you there are snakes. I really see no better place I've slept 2 weeks in there recently, in my case i had a bagback with tools (my knowledge/skills is not the subject on this thread) But I felt so free, I could do like whatever I want, make fire, make noise to cut trees to build stuff, did fish, washed in creeks... Since, I don't feel the same anymore when I live in society because I know this place exists I agree seems to me when people think about freedom, they think about having it while being in the society But learning to meet your essential needs without money is not unobtainable, although I agree it maybe can seem very difficult... I mean it is... Freedom is so precious, that when i see people expecting to become able to reach it thanks to money, in society, that annoys/disgust me How can you expect to be really happy, feel really secure, if you can't feel free :( I hope that everyone i've hurt with this subject on Phi for All's thread are now understanding what i meant

I would like to try again to explain my opinion regarding the way to reach freedom First some facts and opinions and info mixed: If you are religious, you obey to rules others made, not to your feelings/thoughts, you can't prove a god exists and created us and wants you to apply the rules of your religion. Human creates enjoyable tools and art. Humans can help each others for entertainment, like to discover new planets, which is not vital. Humans can help each others for vitality like emergency physicians, who imo are heroes. Living in society can be satisfying, having friends, love, is great. If you have a job you like, you have a secure situation, earn a lot of money, you can live a very comfortable and satisfying life. If you have no money, there is a possibility that you are sad, and you struggle to wash yourself, find food, etc. If you have very small money, a job you don't like, there is a possibility that you are happy anyway. You can be rich today, and become poor tomorrow. You can be worried about having no money, and you can also not worry about it, maybe because you think you will always have some. A wild animal that breaks his leg, gets a disease, can't go somewhere where they get healed, because they didn't evolve in a way that provides such service. All lands on the planet are claimed by multiple organizations called governments. Governments enforces rules, if a human on its land don't apply them, he get punished. There are big places on earth that even if you don't apply these rules, you are so remote, that the people who makes the govs' rules being applied, police, will not see, then not punish you. An animal can live alone An animal can live in a group, where there can be a dominant An animal doesn't pay to eat, neither to sleep, his body is suited for his environment, and he has the knowledge to find food. Long time ago, when a human broke his leg, got a disease, he could easily die because they didn't evolve as we are today, with the services we offer. A human can learn to build tools from scratch, like snares, to hunt A human can learn to recognize wild edibles There are places on Earth where the water is so clean that you can drink it without filtering it. A human can make fire without lighter, by friction. A human can know how to meet his basic needs without money, and also enjoy living in society with money and work. A human can enjoy practicing living out of society, and also enjoy living in society. Imagine, you had the knowledge to meet your basic needs, comfortably, without money Imagine you know a big, remote, suited area to practice that I believe this is the best freedom you could get This doesn't mean you would have to spend your life alone like that It's just that if you were able to do this, you could reach the biggest freedom, when you want to. 2 questions: Can you mention a bigger/better freedom? Isn't it a shame/stupid to expect freedom on a land claimed by a government, where police can see you? #### Maybe we don't have the same expectations from freedom

^ I told you, now you are angry and you attack me because you don't want to accept that when you guys complain about freedom, it's just because the governments' rules don't match your liking, and you don't want to go live in the wild neither You can't do without the government infrastructures, you don't want to learn to do without it, yet you still complain about not being free because of their rules I forgot what you was talking about, sorry I said almost nothing in common with people We have in common interest to science, you guys are not random people I see when i go out Using a computer is not required to survive, unlike eating and staying warm Ah you thought i pretended I build a pc and i live alone in the woods?... anyway Ok i'm done reading what you sent to me, i don't want to spend no more energy for people who lie to themselves and refuse to understand what i said about where the real freedom is

It's true I don't like people a lot, I think it's because I find almost nothing in common with people Regarding leaving away from them I'm not sure, I absolutely want to know how to live away from them, to enjoy leaving with them, not as a dependency I've learned the basics, so today I feel free People in my life don't make me feel weak with their money and help though, I'm wondering what made you think that but I guess I either can't properly explain my point regarding freedom, or either living in society is so deeply inserted in peoples' mind that they can't understand what I mean

I just wanted to point out the fact that when people complain about freedom and justice, they don't see the real cause of their discontent The cause is not that the rules don't match their liking, it's because they don't know how to live free, where governments' rules don't apply They don't know that they can go live out of society, thanks to knowledge, like an animal, they live naked, with no tools, and they can eat, they can stay warm, without money, without rules. I guess the only rule of freedom is that you have to be stronger than the others

I didn't say I need freedom, I don't understand what you want/wanted to ask me exactly... I meant I believe that if you can eat and stay warm only thanks to money, or by being given from others, then you are weak My point was that imo the real freedom is to know how to live alone in the nature, only your body and the nature, not thanks to a bagpack filled with tools And yes of course even there you will not be free from breathing but i guess you understood what i mean, at least i hope so...

The problem is when you can live only thanks to human rules, i believe it makes you weak and always worried about having money for the essential needs So I disagree, i think trying and managing to live free of human rules can make you enjoy more living with human rules, less afraid of not managing to follow these rules, because you can do without Like building a cabin in a forest, making fire, hunting without a license etc: the essential needs i kinda got excessive about this part but i meant that since clothes help you stay warm and protected, then, to be free from human rules, you either need to know how to do without clothes, either know how to make them 100% by yourself

@iNow i guess i meant freedom from human rules

I've read only the 1st post and would like to say something that i believe will hurt some people because they wouldn't want to accept it's true i believe if you want real freedom, you need to learn to live naked, without money, like an animal you need a huge place: alaska, amazon rainforest... there you will be free but in society you will never be free, even the house you paid, the land you paid or inherited, is property of the government i believe complaining sucks, either try to participate in politics to change the rules, either leave the society when i hear people say stuff like "hey wtf i'm not paid enough how will i feed my children" i think it's pathetic

I appreciate your recommendations @Sensei @MigL If you imagine two persons who want to suicide, one is too afraid to do it, and the other one does it, do you think the one who "manages" to do it is just a bigger coward+more hopeless? I think a subject i wanted to bring is that death being the last step, i imagine a guy who would not want to lose time, let's imagine even not a sad guy The guy would just chose not to be a slave of its brain asking dopamine, neither of its self-preservation, he would just go straight to the final step, or maybe we can say the farthest step we know about i imagine that guy just doing the act, to go directly see the end, we could say he didn't merit the luck of being alive since he ditched it But here we can try to imagine he doesn't do it because life is too hard etc or i don't know... i think it's kinda badass and maybe even admirable to say "fu*k it i wanna see what comes next" Maybe considering solipsism a big possibility increase this way of thinking Who says you should not die because you are alive... Maybe the trap is indeed to try to grab as much time and dopamine as possible, while as fast as you leave, better it is...

Death is the final step of our lives We don't kill ourselves for 3 reasons: Responsibility: Not to abandon your family who needs you Fear: bypassing self-preservation is so scary Joy: we prefer to give dopamine to our brain than becoming unconscious (and yes religious people could say suicide = hell... (they know what we don't know)) If one ditches the 3 points mentioned above to kill himself, you might say he acted as a coward, because of point No.1 I guess we can all agree you need to have either big balls, either big hopelessness to ditch No.2, so it's not cowardice Regarding the last point, refusing giving dopamine to the brain, is not cowardice neither, imo, don't hesitate to share yours So, regarding point No.1, here is what would prevent suicide being an act of courage Imagine someone with no children, but parents, this person would make his parents sad, and would not be able to help them when they will be old and would need being washed etc ... although it seems some children pay people, for their parents to be put in some building, to be washed by employees paid to do it I consider that if you go to live so old that you need people to wash you etc, you are not honorable. So, i have no children, point No.3 i think is pathetic, and I admire point No.2 If i kill myself, would you consider i've been a coward? Why? ps: please don't tell me to go see someone, i don't want to give money to someone to obtain tips about being happy

Maybe wondering/believing in solipsism can either be illness, cowardice, but also something else? in my case i don't believe in free will at all, i don't think it's to escape responsibilities, it's just it seems obvious to me that 100% of the present is influenced by the past, not by some instant thoughts coming only from yourself regarding solipsism, i feel it could be very possible, i feel that when you die you maybe like wake up from a dream, in the other dimension Maybe in some matryoshka doll system But i don't believe in that 100%, i just can't believe the universe is not contained in something else, bigger, or different...

It could be i agree, kinda like the fact that not believing in free will could be an excuse to deny responsibilities

Lol that makes me think about maybe that's the situation of some god @Eise I struggle to understand your message, it seems to me you give arguments that solipsism can't/is not true I don't see any thought that could convince me that it is not Since (if i understand correctly) the brain has the ability to make you live in a world that don't exist, like when you dream, i think solipsism could be true ... or it could be the "simulation hypothesis" being in progress But when you wake up in the "real reality", maybe some other people like you are/were in the same state Maybe we are in a game Maybe we intentionally forget the reality when we enter to be able to fully enjoy the game... Btw maybe we are all real but our real "body" is somewhere else ......... but last time i thought about it and since we are born in this fake reality, that could mean we never existed in the real one .... SOOO maybe the only real person is in the real reality, and all the new humans in this fake one are just hmmmmmmm idk xD But i like the idea that unless you don't know 100% of all there is to know, if you just know 99.9%, then maybe the last 0.1% remaining is the info that all you think is real is in fact not