Itoero
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On 2/12/2019 at 6:13 PM, swansont said:
They are not related. The HUP is an inherent property of nature. The observer effect depends on how you do a measurement.
The observer effect and HUP are basically 2 constrains on how we interpret/observe/study reality/nature. The measurement effect is only when you use measuring devices...the Observer effect in physics is mostly a measurement effect. You have several kinds of observer effects: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Observer_effect
The Hawthorne effect (also referred to as the observer effect) is a type of reactivity in which individuals (this can be any kind off lifeform) modify an aspect of their behavior in response to their awareness of being observed. This is for example why placebo controlled clinical trials are 'invented'. Or why people often have to hide themselves and use strong lenses when they film wildlife….it's to prevent wildlife from changing its behavior because it's observed.
Another: In information technology, the observer effect is the impact on the behavior of a computer process caused by the act of observing the process while it is running.
In physics, the observer effect is the theory that simply observing a situation or phenomenon necessarily changes that phenomenon. This is often the result of instruments that, by necessity, alter the state of what they measure in some manner. In the double slit experiment, the detectors and the screen are the instruments that alter the state of what they measure in some manner. (like transforming energy and destroying wave behavior.
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On 1/15/2019 at 8:40 PM, sci-man said:
why is it that some people act differently online versus in real life.
Interesting article concerning this topic: http://www.bbc.com/future/story/20180403-why-do-people-become-trolls-online-and-in-social-media
"New research is revealing that trolls live inside all of us – but that there are ways to defeat them and build more cooperative digital societies."
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The decline of nature (cutting of trees, extinction of animals) is related to global warming and I find the most urgent environmental crisis.
According to some estimates, 100 million sharks may be killed annually, mostly to feed China's demand for shark fin soup. Most sharks are predatory fish. Killing so many sharks messes up the ecosystem. Predators have an important role.
The killing of all wolves in greater Yellowstone changed the natural landscape....The absence of wolves enabled ungulates to increase in population and live semi-sedentair which enabled them to eat flora (mostly close to rivers) until it's all eaten. This caused local plants and trees to be extinct or reduce in population which caused for example the beaver to be locally extinct.
The same happens in oceans due to killing of sharks and in many continental places due the killing of predators.
I hope I made myself clear.
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2 hours ago, Circles0 said:
But hear me out. Over the years many people have been seeing bizzare objects In the sky to convince themselves that there are others out there
I fail to see the causal connection between strange objects in the sky and extraterrestrial life.
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After exploring for 15 years across 45 kilometres of the Meridiani Planum region of Mars, NASA’s Opportunity rover is officially dead.https://www.nature.com/articles/d41586-019-00575-2
R.I.P.
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15 hours ago, Ken Fabian said:
don't see climate change as being about socialism or capitalism - much as many wish to make it about those - but about responsibility and accountability
Climate change is also due to methane release of livestock. I immediately think about the sheep farming in Patagonia.https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Patagonian_sheep_farming_boom This has a big economic impact.
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Isn't a wave a description of the indeterministic behavior when the 'particle' is not measured?
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4 hours ago, zapatos said:
How does melting ice result in less water in rivers?
The ‘third pole’ is the planet’s largest reservoir of ice and snow after the Arctic and Antarctic. It encompasses the Himalaya–Hindu Kush mountain ranges and the Tibetan Plateau. Meltwater feeds ten great rivers, including the Indus, Brahmaputra, Ganges, Yellow and Yangtze, on which almost one-fifth of the world’s population depends.
Climate change threatens this vast frozen reservoir For the past 50 years, glaciers in the Himalayas and Tibetan Plateau have been shrinking.https://www.nature.com/articles/d41586-018-07838-4 The meltwater of the third pole feeds a lot of rivers if the third pole is nearly gone, then it can't feed rivers sufficiently. Basically, due to the warming, glaciers melt more in the summer then they grow in the winter. The third pole: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Third_Pole
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2 minutes ago, Eise said:
won't discuss that, but what the essential difference between the general observer effect is, and the HUP. The general observer effect is between physical objects: the object that is measured, and the object that measures. This is not so with the HUP. The wave function is not a physical object as other physical objects. And the HUP follows from the fact already mentioned by Swansont, that e.g. position and momentum are Fourier transformations of each other. It is not so that have some unknown physical effect on a physical system: their combination is not precise, independent from the fact if we measure it or not. And in not-measuring is definitely not an observer effect.
Ok but Hup is about the relationship between 2 measurements of one phenomenon and both measurements are subject to the observer effect. HUP and Observer effect are related but not causal.
21 minutes ago, Eise said:You really think that Strange does not know that a photon has an energy according to E = hf?
The question here is if you can call it kinetic energy. I am not sure, so I let it to him argue about this with you. But at least one difference is that you can make the kinetic energy of moving bodies 0 by slowing it down. You cannot do that with a photon. It always travels at c.
No, I just don't understand why she denies it's kinetic. Photons are always on the move (at c)and can scatter so it imo has kinetic/potential energy.
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18 minutes ago, dimreepr said:
who us???
?
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3 minutes ago, dimreepr said:
no, us...
Due to global warming there will be less water in many rivers because the melting of glaciers which will cause water crises.
Global warming speeds up insect decline….
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2 hours ago, studiot said:
Many think that there are multiple environmental crises assailing the planet.
But aren't those crises strongly related to global warming?
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On 2/10/2019 at 6:17 PM, Mordred said:
HUP doesn't depend on measurement to be a cause, it is a fundamental constraint that is present even without the object being measured.
Observer effect is also a 'fundamental' constraint. Placebo controlled clinical trails are made to deal with the observer effect. When for example wild animals are studied people make necessary arrangements to prevent animals from changing their behavior because they feel the are observed.https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Observer_effect
On 2/10/2019 at 11:06 PM, Strange said:by "relativistic mass" you mean energy, then obviously they do have energy. But, once again, you have moved the goalposts. No one denies that photons have energy. But they do not have kinetic energy and they do not have mass.
Why do you deny they have kinetic energy?
The energy of a photon, E (which can be considered as all kinetic energy since the proper energy = E0 = 0 and E = K + E0 = K), is related to the photon's frequency, f, by E = hf where h = Planck's constant = 6.626068 × 10-34m2kg/s.
Reference https://www.physicsforums.com/threads/photon-kinetic-energy.232106/
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Pesticides, pollution and climate change are all wiping out insects at an alarming rate – so much, that a new global review says they could vanish within a century, threatening a “catastrophic collapse of nature’s ecosystems”.
The scientists are calling for an urgent overhaul of the agricultural industry, warning that “unless we change our ways of producing food, insects as a whole will go down the path of extinction in a few decades”.https://www.channel4.com/news/insects-decline-threatens-catastrophic-collapse-of-natures-ecosystems
The rate of insect extinction is eight times faster than that of mammals, birds and reptiles.https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2019/feb/10/plummeting-insect-numbers-threaten-collapse-of-nature
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1 hour ago, Strange said:
As far as I know, quantum theory is (completely?) deterministic.
In an sense yes but many people believe the indeterminism in QT shows the indeterministic nature of the universe.
There is a lot indeterministic in QT.https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quantum_indeterminacy
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23 hours ago, Strange said:
While trivially and obviously true, that has nothing to do with the double slit experiment. (And photons don't have kinetic energy because they are massless.)
You are wrong, it's odd that you believe that. Have you never heard about frequency or wavelength of photons? And you can deny it's validity but not its existence...photons have relativistic mass.
23 hours ago, Strange said:Nope.
lol, you are faithing. You talk with your emotions.
19 hours ago, swansont said:Energy is conserved regardless. It doesn’t matter if one worries about the observer effect, or if there is a superposition, or not. Neither of those depend on energy conservation. Energy conservation does not predict if those situations are in play.
Ok, but energy is conserved in the system. Photons in detectors or on the screen don't release their energy in the atmosphere.
19 hours ago, swansont said:They both can refer to posion and momentum, but they are distinct phenomena
Observer effect is a lot more general. If measurement did not alter the phenomenon then you could measure momentum and position of one phenomenon as precise as possible and HUP would not exist.
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On 1/15/2019 at 6:23 PM, Phi for All said:On 1/15/2019 at 5:56 PM, iNow said:
I completely agree. It's one of the hallmarks of an unreasonable argument. It's lazy, dishonest, confusing, misleading, and unscientific.
OMG Many of you people are very inconsequent and unscientific. You acknowledge physics concerns what people say of the universe via experimental evidence. Physics concerns what we say about Nature. Yet many people believe the 'randomness' in Quantum theory shows the indeterministic nature of the universe.
I once made a thread concerning determinism...all people that replied believed the randomness in QT shows an indeterministic nature. I remember Eise backed up her opinions with imaginary consensus (all scientists believe in indeterminism) like she does often, yet you people seem to like it.
And yes, I know you will deny this and pretend I'm the unscientific one...that's what you do. It doesn't matter how much science backs me up....
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When you support charity, is it for animals or humans?
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A straight line from A until C.
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Electrical stimulation can be used for the relief of pain. Maybe pain can cause electrical stimulation as a stress reaction.
It seems electrical stimulation can be causal related to a metallic taste. https://academic.oup.com/chemse/article/30/3/185/284585
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On 2/6/2019 at 7:59 AM, Strange said:
But that has nothing to do with entanglement. You just weren't very clear what you meant.
So the photon that is detected / destroyed is not the one that went the slits. So that second photon is not affected by the observer effect.
Entanglement?
Superposition is not the same as entanglement.
Photons that hit the screen are also subject to the observer effect...
On 2/6/2019 at 11:46 AM, swansont said:Energy is conserved. This is irrelevant to the discussion.
It is relevant. When photons are detected or hit the screen there kinetic/potential energy is transformed. A photon is destroyed but its energy is not.
On 2/6/2019 at 11:46 AM, swansont said:Your opinion is also irrelevant. The PEE is a well-defined interaction. It does not cover all photon absorptions. Excitation, for example, is not the PEE.
Whether it's PEE or not depends on the material off the photon detectors or how they work.
On 2/6/2019 at 10:47 AM, Eise said:And last but not least:
Observer effect and HUP are not the same thing but they are very much related. When you measure the position or momentum then you apply a form of force which changes the position or momentum. The observer effect is not necessary only about physics...or about science...
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On 2/7/2019 at 8:19 PM, StringJunky said:
Yes, I think a superbrain has a greater neural density rather than outright size; rather like the evolution of computers.
21 hours ago, Mordred said:I don't think that is adequate either, the size of different regions that process certain senses such as smell etc also vary in size depending on how critical that sense is to the animals survival. Brain size is a poor measure of a creatures ability to problem solve, as much of the brain is used in other processes such as senses.
Correct but is it known or assumed what sort of neural density in what parts of the brain, people like Albert Einstein had? The neural density can increase (or decrease) the amount of information which can be stored.
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A hungry mosquito is at best a nuisance; at worst, it is a transmitter of deadly diseases.
Now, researchers have discovered a way to stop mosquitoes biting — by using human ‘diet’ drugs to trick them into feeling full. The scientists suggest that the drugs could one day be used to control the spread of diseases. Their results are reported in Cell on 7 February.https://www.nature.com/articles/d41586-019-00511-4
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how people act online versus irl
in Psychiatry and Psychology
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They are young dogs?