hoola

my (admittedly weak) "evidence" is our ability to build things such as transistors and have some understanding of why they work as they do, inferring some "quantumlike" functional analogue within the minds that created them, specifically, those individuals who "paid attention" to their outputs...A relevant question would be : could quantum devices be conceived and constructed without quantum assisted thinking?

I am also arguing that the quantum processes were "always there", but only with an internal ability to respond to and begin to understand their outputs, do they become "macroscopic" in our worlds.

I can only suggest evidence that is readily avialable on the web....and some seemingly credible things are said that tend to suggest that the submicron size of dna components of neurons turning on and off, may have some assist in accomplishing the thought process. So, thought is not a "normal biochemical process"? In no way am I suggesting any mystical elements into the discussion, but why would the brain be off limits to quantum effects which the rest of the body seems, by your own admission, to employ? If a houseplant can use quantum effects in improving efficiency in the chlorophyll cycle as has been suggested, couldn't the effects have aided the mind's ability to forsee dangers and make human survival more likely, within individuals who "paid attention" to it's novel outputs? .

it would seem possible that some of the process of human thought occurs on the sub-micron level, so within some quantum influence, although the "output" only appears classically

I see the universe as composed of two components, classical and quantum, with the mind a meeting of those two elements. Being a component of the universe, the mind has no choice in the matter, and that meeting generates conversations in our "event horizon" which we can see from the classical side...and attempt to repeat within the calculus of the moment...

strange....yes, some time ago reality imagined us, and we are now being expressed as one form of logical possibility, once reality had sufficient time to arrange certain geometric actualization prototocols. Ten Oz...reality was singular at the fundamental "one void" time in history, well prior to BB. The culmination of that event is the point in time that the "hardware" was begun construction as directed by the "software" of prior BB states...

We cannot imagine reality..only the other way around...or else reality becomes less real than it could be, within it's simplest form...and becomes a religious misperception...and burdensomely complex.

mind is a function of the Powerful Imagination...

I apologize for the OT issue, as the detailed original post I was "cleaning up" with a series of edits suddenly turned blue and disappeared...and that included a conclusionary statement as to the "speed of gravitation waves". The, rather long post was a set up for my my more detailed concluding remark as to the speed issue. Pardon, but it was 3am and I had worked on the lost post for 2 hrs, and I forgot to include the conclusion in my haste to rewrite the central ideas : The speed issue, based upon the fundamentals I propose, is a function of the speed of calculations involved with the quantum phenomena, which having a common genesis to the classic world, shares that speed, hence the speed of light and the speed of gravity are alike. Plus, in post #1, I did address the speed issue with the concluding sentence stating a "common harmonic oscillator generator driving both functions". The original post# 3 was an amplification of that particular "speed equivalency" issue that I was, and still am, attempting to address. And yes, I am trying to figure out virtual particles. I see we know a little about how they function, but nothing as to why they do so, as a subset of the "why anything" question.

I am not sure how well defined the idea of a virtual particle is. I see the pairs as artifacts from a competing logic system(s), one in which sq.rt -1 has some functionality. I see our universe as based on a more durable form of logic, along with many less durable logic systems organized from a "central white noise generator", or chaos, that allows various realities to exist within a common universe. Ours having enough "durability" for a stable math structure to evolve within our "logic boundary", and allowing enough time for interactions within that structure to take place. In places these boundaries may intersect in certain ways, and that is what I see as allowing the appearance of the particle pairs, and of quantum properties in general. In this way I see a multi-reality occurring in a common universe, instead of the multi-universe idea.

I have been thinking that gravitation is caused by distortions in the orbits of the virtual particles, and that they are not just in space, but are space. They "make and break" at a certain frequency, just as light goes electric and then magnetic at a certain frequency, but somehow mass elongates virtual pair orbits so that they are in existence slightly longer than when not proximate to mass. That extra duration of existence manifests itself as the warpage issue with an actual geometric change of orbits. If pair A disappear in one certain geometric area of space, pair B might occur within the spatial boundary area of the prior A particle's orbital area...and when a third pair, pair C attempt to position near the A orbital boundary as well, with pair B haven't collapsed as of yet, this causes a repulsive force as these things "elbow to elbow their way into existence", leading to the dark energy. The longer a particular pair "hang around", the more likely it will have time to bump into the new arrivals, hence dark energy as averaged on the grand scale, and as gravitation on the local. With this I think the force of gravitation is not due to particle exchange, and information from gravity waves is due to variations within the internal pressures of space caused by unequal dark energy local expressions, with the gravity waves themselves as strictly mathematical constructs and have no physical or "particle" form. The pairs respond to "inputs" from their neighbors, and that input changes the equations that describe particle properties. They are after all called "virtual" particles, so the idea seems rather natural. The speed at which they exchange information does seem to be equivalent to C, and could point to a common harmonic oscillator driving both functions...of course, the main question is why are the pairs showing up in the first place, regardless if they have much to do with the gravity function.

could sentience, given enough knowledge of the "why anything" question, take that knowledge and affix a meaning to the word "spiritual" that would infer a way of changing (upgrade) the spiritual environment of the observer, given that the knowledge acquired allowed a spiritual realm to have a plausible reason to exist? If the start of the universe was 13.7b years ago, then everything from that microsecond after the big bang is second hand news. So, an upgraded religion would take the central idea of that there is a physics, or proto-physics of a prior era, and that it will eventually be ascertained.

I agree with the d theoist to the degree that a definition of the word real needs to be adjusted.....if you consider what is "real" in the conventional sense, that implies a definition before the discovery of quantum mechanics. And with nothing else in the content of the post...

what would happen to entangled particles as a gravity wave passes through one of the particles and not the other? Would this place a stress on the entanglement phenomena with a weak wave, and with a strong wave disrupt it totally?

and what would happen to two entangled particles that eventually get separated past their "light cone" distance from each other, through the expansion of space?
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nixie tubes show up at ham fests, and can be scavenged from obsolete equipment rather cheaply. There was a guy in the AudioKarma online electronics diy club who talked about getting some.....I can't remember his username, but a search of that site should come up with someone who can help.

Hi arc, yes I am slowly getting off the grid, but plan on keeping the meter hooked up so when my batteries run low, a relay kicks in the utility company power to keep them up. I asked 2 years ago to get a grid-tie meter put in but the local utility made sure I wouldn't, as they quickly wrote up new regulations with 5 pages of stuff I had to do, including buying a $100K insurance policy if my electricity could be shown to have hurt anyone or their property on the town's grid...(!)....I imagine I could fight it with a threatening letter from a lawyer (you'd be surprised how often that simple tactic works), but I won't. I will proceed with a home system that can handle most of the house load. I already have the garage self-sufficient, so I am making progress. I have had the air conditioning idea for years....why can't the huge amount of heat coming off the exhaust maniford work.?..the thing practically glows in the dark! I haven't researched it yet, but I suspect that the absorption type refrigerants are toxic, unlike conventional freon, and it's a liability thing, especially with a car accident.

I had a small refrigerator that used an electric heating element to expand the freon, without the use of a pump or any other moving part and it worked quite well, it even made ice. With all the excess heat of a car engine going to waste, why couldn't a similar setup be used in cars for the air conditioning, making it as free as the heater is in winter?

I am anticipating getting the next solar 500 watts shortly, and will combine that with upping the efficiency of my shower with a heat exchanger. I plan on adding a helical coil of 1/2" copper, tightly wrapped around a couple feet of the 2" tub drainline. This coil will be added between the main supply line and the inlet of the water heater for that bathroom. This should recycle some btu's going down the drain, back into the tank.

further efficiency upgrades with happen when I install a small (3 gals) electric heater in the kitchen under the sink. The main heater will no longer supply the heat to the kitchen this way, with saving the loss of heat due cold water not being dumped into the main tank, as it takes a full minute for the water to warm up in the kitchen, and I usually only need it for a few seconds. A further savings could be by adding a heat exchanger there too, with the 2" drainline/coil idea...but since I use little hot water there, I probably won't bother with it.

I am wondering which end of the shower heat exchanger should have the cold water going in....at the hottest (nearest the drain), or at the other end of the coil... it seems that by coupling the hottest part of the drainpipe with the coldest water would allow a maximum heat transfer.....and hooking it up the other way would be a more linear heat extraction over the length...possibly delivering the same btu transfer amount...I imagine this question is a settled issue with the mechanical engineers out there..

that amusing....I see that as somewhat of what long hauls have triggered in me, when I am in the last 50 miles of a 600 mile nonstop......part of my mind thinks it already is home in bed and turns on dreamstate. A very dangerous thing indeed. I have to slap myself around a little when my visual field has a frame or two of a dream, like a pop up ad, flash every few minutes, as the will to keep the state suppressed runs out of steam, or glucose, as the case may be. The willpower to push the X button to rid the ad is taxing, like lifting a leaden finger to do it in real life. In the driving experience, the pop up takes over the visual field, not just a strip. Once I thought I noticed some normal visual, in narrow horizontal bands at the top and bottom of the pop-up...

Still dreamin, still dreamin, Dream your life away... and let the sun take a holiday A rarer category of dreams seem to allow the awareness to escape from the limitations of physical self...to merge with and interact with other conscious beings on an sentience to sentience basis. I have had a few dreams in that category. Usually they involve listening to music with a few others, and the music ascends through my human limitation to understand it, yet still somehow remembered, as a logical extension of what I know, with the listening group awarenesses merging on the other side of that musical "event horizon". As far as "official" daydreaming goes..when I was a kid I was an avid SWL listener. The weird, complicated chaotic droning sound of the loran ADF system was on loud and clear at several locations on the SW dial, and a real favorite to sit and trance out on alpha waves with. I would enter a very enjoyable waking dream state, and at the early age of 4 and 5 believed it was martians communicating with me directly....funny, huh?....I was pretty let-down about 6 when I discovered out it wasn't really martians, and had given up on sustaining the illusion that is could be martians by the age of 12 or so. Some of the early trances lasted for quite some time and got pretty involved with what seemed at the time as information sharing...real questions of logical substance in the first half, followed by answers at the last, and I would wake up after the last resolve. The problem was interruptions....I had only a few SWL daydreams that were complete. Usually the dog barked or some common thing like that would interrupt me. Today I remember them as very delicate states, and the interruptions as a "breaking entanglement" of sorts ...I group together these two types, the loran induced childhood daydreams and the adult escape dreams, as they feel similar in structure to me, and leave a similar emotional state when coming out, or waking up from...they both engendered me to feel my existence as being "worth all the trouble"...and therefore accept totally that fact that I am stuck in a physical body, which part of my consciousness seems to rebel against. The feeling of total acceptance would fade as that rebel re-establishes itself, back to a normal day-to-day partial acceptance, that other people seem to have. Some other categories, such as waking up mentally, but the body is frozen is very unpleasant, and I have to struggle to move my body. Only if I can move any part, which takes a huge force of will to do, can I get out of this trap, so I group them with nightmares. I have never tried a sensory deprivation tank, but imagine the experience is somewhat similar. The rarest type (once around 6)) was a dream that continued on, even though I had "woken up"....and as long as I didn't open my eyes, the dream continued, outside my will to control, like watching a movie. I laid there watching the dream for a minute or so, then I carefully opened my right eye just a little, and the movie vanished.

are massless particles forms of light?

yes, fm modulation and decoding are more complex, however my analogy gives them equal treatment until the end of the inflation period when the classic logic broke with quantum logic. It's not a matter of who came first, they both were expressed at the initial moment. The choice of which mod system represents which form of logic is unimportant...partly I chose the way I did as fm is a superior system, just as classical world seems a better place to live in than on the head of a pin with 5 other angels who can't quite get it together...

In the middle ages, catholic priests would pontificate as to how many angels could dance on the head of a pin..........the agreed number, according to the story I heard, was 6. The story as related to me was to ridicule the church, but I think it was the cleverest thing I ever heard about them....by their discussion, what were they really talking about but the size of a point, where a massless angel might be, anywhere in the world? I think there is a minimum size, expressed as a massless point, with enough data in the description to have some level of existence, but not enough to register a geometric size...and the reason the 5 angels "can't get it together" is that they are illogical entities stuck in their illogical universe...

yes, I am pretty sure it means nothing too in a factual sense, as it is an analogy. If I may repeat .......The electronics-based reference is due to reading space described as a "harmonic oscillator as every point", and the fact that virtual particle behavior allows an analysis (casimir exp.) as to selective reducing of bandwidth energies. The "bandwidth" being yet another electronic reference. I agree I take it past where it makes any sense, by extending the analogy to classical reality being based on a differing logic underpinning than quantum reality, but at the same time, extracting those different logic systems from a common source, mathematics. My extended analogy lists FM as the classical determinant universe, and AM as the quantum indeterminant universe. Differing systems, both built on the same device, the electron.

The analogy can be extended even further to a purely physical system, a river. The flow (mathematics), causing 2 whirlpools (great attractors), spinning in different directions. The river bisects the equator, one appearing in the northern hemisphere going counter clockwise, the other in the southern hemisphere, going clockwise...as the river travels, the river snakes north and the counter clockwise whirlpool becomes stronger and more well defined. The clockwise whirlpool becomes more attenuated and chaotic. Ripples of interference occur within the water between the two whirlpools...At that moment, we happen to float by in a canoe as the clockwise whirlpool is in the process of disintegration, and feel vibrations of "complex" patterns that shouldn't be there in northern hemisphere waters, as all whirlpools normally rotate in one direction only.

the electronic analogy to quantum/classic phenomena seems appropriate at this point, as space has been referred to as a "harmonic oscillator at every point". This implies a signal of some sort, with virtual particles as the developing "interference pattern output". This output seems variable in proximity to baryonic matter, as with the casimir test results showing restrictions of certain portions of the overall bandwidth, with measurable effects, as between the narrow gap of the plates. The spectrum energy of the unperturbed output, that would occur in empty space, seems partially transferred to a force to squeeze the plates. The limitation of unperturbed output in space of virtual particles seems set by them being anti-particles of each other. What would be the energy level of a mono-virtual particle (hawking radiation?), if one were to exist without it's antiparticle to subdue it's output and it's lifespan? There seems to be a casual analogy to the proposed magnetic monopole having once existed in the early universe as hawking radiation existing only at special places.

An imaginary number is a complex number that can be written as a real number, multiplied by the imaginary unit i, which is defined by it's property i sq.= -1. The square of an imaginary number b i is -b sq. Example 5 i = -25 (wiki)

A complex number can be expressed in the form of a + b i, where a and b are real numbers and the i is the imaginary unit that satisfies the equation i sq. = -1. In this expression, a is the real part, and b is the imaginary part of the complex number. (wiki)

complex numbers and variables can be useful in classical physics, but are not essential. All forces, positions, momenta, potentials, electric and magnetic fields are all real quantities, and the equations that describe them, Newtons laws, Maxwell's equations, etc, are all differential equations involving strictly real quantities. Quantum mechanics are different. Factors of sq.rt-1 are everywhere. The wave function is complex, as so is practically every other quantity needed to formulate quantum mechanics. Granted that classical mechanics fails at distances of a micrometer or less, why is it necessary that everything be complex? (from an online course, not my question)

I do have a question as regards to the factor (sq.rt -1 ) which seems to be a standard notation.......does the real number matter in the factor? Would the factor value remain the same whether the number is sq.rt -2, or sq.rt - 5, or any other real number you might insert?

at this point, the i factor seems a representative component of an interference pattern that develops between the formal (narrow band width) strict logic of classic mechanics, with sideband interference from a differing logic system's potential input (wide-band) signal...as a sort of weak, random AM static on a clear FM radio channel...