Ant Sinclair Posted August 20, 2015 Share Posted August 20, 2015 (edited) Below is an Harvard paper, in it it's mentioning H2O & OH Mega-Masers and also Star-Formation. Could the EXPERTS explain what they are meaning in this paper, is Water and Hydroxide actually present, are they meaning these two Mega-Masers are a component in Star-Formation, if there are more Water Masers to One Hydroxide Maser would this lead to the creation of a larger star etc? Link to paper; http://articles.adsabs.harvard.edu/cgi-bin/nph-iarticle_query?bibcode=1993ApJ...402L..69M&db_key=AST&page_ind=1&plate_select=NO&data_type=GIF&type=SCREEN_GIF&classic=YES Edited August 20, 2015 by Ant Sinclair Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Strange Posted August 20, 2015 Share Posted August 20, 2015 (edited) Yes, water and OH ions are present. (Note that the page you link to doesn't seem to mention star formation, but the first page does.) These masers are associated with star formation. I assume this is because the conditions required to create masers are the same as those where stars are likely to be created (density of gas, etc). Particularly as they suggest that the cause of the required population inversion may be shock waves in the gas clouds, which I think can also trigger star formation. Or, as they say, it may be that the creation of large stars creates the shock wave that forms the maser. Edited August 20, 2015 by Strange Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ant Sinclair Posted August 20, 2015 Author Share Posted August 20, 2015 Yes, water and OH ions are present. (Note that the page you link to doesn't seem to mention star formation, but the first page does.) These masers are associated with star formation. I assume this is because the conditions required to create masers are the same as those where stars are likely to be created (density of gas, etc). Particularly as they suggest that the cause of the required population inversion may be shock waves in the gas clouds, which I think can also trigger star formation. Or, as they say, it may be that the creation of large stars creates the shock wave that forms the maser. Where do these shock-waves You mention originate from?, could it be beause of some kind of Ion exchange between the H2O & OH? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Strange Posted August 20, 2015 Share Posted August 20, 2015 Where do these shock-waves You mention originate from?, could it be beause of some kind of Ion exchange between the H2O & OH? As they say, some could be from star formation. You also get shock waves from supernova explosions, galaxy collisions, quasar jets, young pulsars and various other sources. My (limited) understanding is that these can all trigger star formation in clouds. I doubt there is enough energy in the exchange of electrons between ions to trigger shock waves. But I may be wrong. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ant Sinclair Posted August 20, 2015 Author Share Posted August 20, 2015 As they say, some could be from star formation. You also get shock waves from supernova explosions, galaxy collisions, quasar jets, young pulsars and various other sources. My (limited) understanding is that these can all trigger star formation in clouds. I doubt there is enough energy in the exchange of electrons between ions to trigger shock waves. But I may be wrong. You said You doubt there would be enough energy in the exchange of electrons Strange, WOULDN'T that depend quite a lot on the densities present? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Strange Posted August 20, 2015 Share Posted August 20, 2015 You said You doubt there would be enough energy in the exchange of electrons Strange, WOULDN'T that depend quite a lot on the densities present? Maybe. But if the gas is denser then more energy would required to generate a shock wave. I really have no idea but the energy involved in creating hydroxyl ions in a near vacuum seems rather small compared to the known mechanisms (which involve the creation or destruction of entire stars). I have never seen this mentioned as a source of shockwaves. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ant Sinclair Posted August 20, 2015 Author Share Posted August 20, 2015 (edited) Can I Please Call On A Resident Expert To Clear This Up; What Exactly are the roles of Water & Hydroxide Mega-Masers - Are They A Key Process in Star-Formation and Could These Shock-Waves Be Caused By H2O/OH Ion Exchange? Edited August 20, 2015 by Ant Sinclair Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Strange Posted August 20, 2015 Share Posted August 20, 2015 (edited) Are They A Key Process in Star-Formation Apparently not: "Although associated with the complex activity of star formation, the role of masers in the building of a new star is thought to be minor" https://www.cfa.harvard.edu/news/su201244 That page talks about methanol masers as well. I never knew about any of this stuff. Ain't the universe amazing! Also, according to the paper mentioned on that page(*), one of the main sources of shock waves is the heating and ionization of hydrogen by newly formed stars. This process is explained quite clearly here: http://astronomy.swin.edu.au/cosmos/H/HII+Region (*) This, I think: http://arxiv.org/abs/1210.3366 Edited August 20, 2015 by Strange 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ant Sinclair Posted August 20, 2015 Author Share Posted August 20, 2015 (edited) Below strange is an extract and below it a link to the Astronomy Monthly News Letter, when this link is clicked it gives access to all their News Letters, click on No.272 the August 2015 Edition - this is this below. The current paradigm of star formation through accretion disks, and magnetohydrodynamically driven gas ejections, predicts the development of collimated outflows, rather than expansion without any preferential direction. We present radio continuum observations of the massive protostar W75N(B)-VLA 2, showing that it is a thermal, collimated ionized wind and that it has evolved in 18 years from a compact source into an elongated one. This is consistent with the evolution of the associated expanding water-vapor maser shell, which changed from a nearly circular morphology, tracing an almost isotropic outflow, to an elliptical one outlining collimated motions. We model this behavior in terms of an episodic, short-lived, originally isotropic, ionized wind whose morphology evolves as it moves within a toroidal density stratification. Accepted by Science (vol.348, p.114) http://arxiv.org/pdf/1507.05285 http://www.ifa.hawaii.edu/~reipurth/newsletter.htm We model this behavior in terms of an episodic, short-lived, originally isotropic, ionized wind whose morphology evolves as it moves within a toroidal density stratification. Ion Exchange has to be the Spark-Plug Firing Up The Star surely! Edited August 20, 2015 by Ant Sinclair Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Strange Posted August 20, 2015 Share Posted August 20, 2015 And once again, we are back to posting random papers and articles with no explanation of their relevance ... click on No.272 the August 2015 Edition Why? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
swansont Posted August 20, 2015 Share Posted August 20, 2015 You can't sort through papers looking for key words and expect to find anything useful. You have to actually delve into the physics to know if it has relevance. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ant Sinclair Posted August 21, 2015 Author Share Posted August 21, 2015 Of the two types of fusion reactor the reactions are initiated differently, the older type by a fission explosion and the later type by lasers if I remember correctly. Either way these reactions are initiated by Energy! OH + H2O > H2O + OH with an Ion Exchange, is this correct? If this is correct so far then water and hydroxide moving at high velocities 60km/s+ and at high densities could be exchanging a 'decent ammount' of Ions - could this be correct? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Strange Posted August 21, 2015 Share Posted August 21, 2015 OH + H2O > H2O + OH with an Ion Exchange, is this correct? If this is correct so far then water and hydroxide moving at high velocities 60km/s+ and at high densities could be exchanging a 'decent ammount' of Ions - could this be correct? I'm not sure that there would be a release of energy in such a process. Maybe you should create a thread to ask that in the chemistry sub-forum. Is this useful: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hydroxyl_radical#Astronomical_importance ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ant Sinclair Posted August 21, 2015 Author Share Posted August 21, 2015 I'm not sure that there would be a release of energy in such a process. Maybe you should create a thread to ask that in the chemistry sub-forum. Is this useful: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hydroxyl_radical#Astronomical_importance ? Seeing as this thread is concerning H2O & OH Mega-Masers maybe a chemistry expert could come on thread and enlighten Us to the questions asked above. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Strange Posted August 21, 2015 Share Posted August 21, 2015 Maybe no one with expertise in chemistry is reading threads in "Astronomy and Cosmology" ... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ant Sinclair Posted August 21, 2015 Author Share Posted August 21, 2015 Maybe no one with expertise in chemistry is reading threads in "Astronomy and Cosmology" ... On that note strange Iam now 'parking' this thread untill such an expert shares his thoughts on Post No.12 of this thread! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Strange Posted August 21, 2015 Share Posted August 21, 2015 Is this yet another "I'm not getting the answer I want so I am ignoring the answers" thread? On that note strange Iam now 'parking' this thread untill such an expert shares his thoughts on Post No.12 of this thread! If there are no such experts reading the thread, you could have a long wait ... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ant Sinclair Posted August 21, 2015 Author Share Posted August 21, 2015 Iam patient ;-) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Strange Posted August 21, 2015 Share Posted August 21, 2015 But you could post the question the appropriate forum, then you might not need to be ... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ant Sinclair Posted August 21, 2015 Author Share Posted August 21, 2015 But you could post the question the appropriate forum, then you might not need to be ... I could or I could which I already have, mailed such experts supplying a link to said post, so thanks for Your tip strange Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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