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Democracy and sustainability Rate Topic: -----

#21 CaptainPanic 


Icon
Usually himself

View PostiNow, on 7 February 2012 - 03:54 PM, said:

As with anything else, there are some who display consistently accurate results, and others who make up explanations to suit their ideology.

Those who have ignored econ 101 to suit an ideology have been wrong practically every time.

Econ 101?

Which one from this list is "Econ 101"?

(source: Wikipedia page on "Schools for economics").

1 Ancient economic thought
2 Islamic economics
3 Scholasticism
4 Mercantilism
5 Physiocrats
6 Classical political economy
7 American (National) School
8 French liberal school
9 German historical school
10 English historical school
11 French historical school
12 Utopian economics
13 Marxian economics
14 State socialism
15 Ricardian socialism
16 Anarchist economics
17 Distributism
18 Institutional economics
19 New institutional economics
20 Neoclassical economics
21 Lausanne school
22 Austrian school
23 Stockholm school
24 Keynesian economics
25 Chicago school
26 Carnegie school
27 Neo-Ricardianism
28 Modern schools
29 Current heterodox schools
30 Other 20th century schools
(And #30 splits up again into: )
Public Choice school
Marxian (Marxist) and neo-Marxist economics
Keynesian economics
New Keynesian economics
Post-Keynesian economics
New classical macroeconomics
Austrian School
Neo-Ricardianism
Chicago School
Freiburg School
School of Lausanne
Stockholm school
Institutional economics
Evolutionary economics
Constitutional economics

Is there just 1 belief? Are there more beliefs?
I think it's all a big guess. They have developed models that describe history quite well, but they all fail to describe the future. Every time that the world took a new step, they had to develop a new school of economics. That's not a science. And it's all equally worthless to predict even the economy of tomorrow.

I will preach the School of Common Sense. And it's just as good as any.

Sorry to push this thread so far towards schools of economics. Perhaps we should consider to split it off.
Veni, vidi, modeli - I came, I saw, and I modeled it
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#22 iNow 


SuperNerd

View PostCaptainPanic, on 7 February 2012 - 04:58 PM, said:

Econ 101?

Which one from this list is "Econ 101"?
<snip>
Sorry to push this thread so far towards schools of economics. Perhaps we should consider to split it off.

I'm doubtful I'll make much progress getting you to agree, but if a thread split is in order, we touched on similar themes recently here: http://www.sciencefo...conomic-theory/
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#23 calabi 


Quark
Here's a great quote from Richard Feyman on Economics.

Quote

<br class="Apple-interchange-newline">One of my favourite people of the 20th century is Richard Feynman, the Nobel Prize winning physicist who, among other things, pioneered the study of quantum electrodynamics. In a fantastic documentary about him for BBC's Horizon show called "The Pleasure of Finding Things Out" he said something I found moving and profound. He was talking about the "experts" he saw on TV and how although he didn't have any expertise in the area they claimed to have expertise in, he felt quite sure that they didn't know what they were talking about. He said this:

"There are myths and pseudo-science all over the place. I might be quite wrong, maybe they do know all this ... but I don't think I'm wrong, you see I have the advantage of having found out how difficult it is to really know something. How careful you have to be about checking the experiments, how easy it is to make mistakes and fool yourself. I know what it means to know something. And therefore, I see how they get their information and I can't believe that they know it. They haven't done the work necessary, they haven't done the checks necessary, they haven't taken the care necessary. I have a great suspicion that they don't know and that they're intimidating people."

So if I apply Feynman's test and ask myself how hard most economists worked for their knowledge, I can't help thinking they haven't worked hard for it at all. I don't think they've worked hard to know what inflation is, or whether it can or should be targeted. I think they've just assumed it, and anyone can do that. As Feynman warned, they've fallen into the trap of fooling themselves. They've assumed that inflation can be proxied by the CPI because it's easier to do that, they've assumed that 2% is somehow the right rate for it, and they've assumed they're capable of setting interest rates at the 'appropriate' level

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#24 iNow 


SuperNerd
How is that a valid argument? "I think economists haven't taken time to understand inflation, that they just assume stuff... so that's why I don't trust them!"

Seriously?
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#25 TruthSleuth 


Lepton
First off, my agenda is our survival--yours and mine. Seriously. My observations tell me that the government, academics and the media are the reason for the economic mis-education of American voters and similarly in other countries. They have accomplished it like this:
  • Academia sold the Government on an economic doctrine (e.g. monetary policy 1913 & later added Keynesianism after WWII) and trains new economists (or engineers in my case) in the same economic philosophy
  • The Government hires academics as employees and many others (80%+) as consultants and research grants.
  • The media also hires academics to write columns or put on a retainer as subject matter experts to translate economics for the public
  • The media interviews The Fed Chairman or a surrogate from the Fed board or academia.
  • The public is indoctrinated into the government's doctrine and the circle is completed. The majority have swallowed the blue pill. I'm hoping the readers of this forum have taken the red pill ("embracing the sometimes painful truth of reality"). =)

Without going into the philosophies of the various economics in CaptainPanic's excellent list in my already long post, let's follow the dollar. It should fit in with this forum, because it involves mathematics. First let's stipulate that both political doctrines have participated in getting us to this crisis point over forty years. Second, let's stipulate that Presidents are at best cheerleaders as far as tax and spend are concerned. Article I, Section 7 of the U.S. constitution says: "All bills for raising revenue shall originate in the House of Representatives; but the Senate may propose or concur with amendments as on other Bills." The President may recommend tax increases or decreases or veto Congress' proposals. But Congress can ignore a President's veto or recommendations. Therefore, ignore any academics or media blaming Presidents for tax increases or Presidents saying they won't increase (or will decrease) taxes. So, the people need to control Congress. Third, let's stipulate that all Americans (and the world) are in the same ship of state. What happens to the dollar happens to all of us. Fourth, let's stipulate that if the government confiscated (not tax) every penny owned by every millionaire or billionaire in the US, it would only pay one-tenth of the US's total indebtedness.

The behind the scenes facilitator for this crisis since its inception in 1913 is The Federal Reserve System of the US (The Fed). Despite the name it's a private banking cartel. In fact one of the share holders is the Queen of England, but that's another story. It creates money by printing dollars and loaning them to its affiliate banks. This creates inflation of the money supply, which causes prices to rise and allows governments to deficit spend. Looking at the Bureau of Labor Statistics's own data (bls.gov) the dollar has lost 95% of it's value since 1913 and 82% since 1971. The Minneapolis Fed's data (www.minneapolisfed.org) shows the CPI virtually flat from 1800 until a bump up about 1914 (WWI), back down, and up again for WWII, where it kept increasing, then it really took off in 1971 creating the hockey stick (exponential like) we see today. Nixon took the US off the gold standard in 1971. Prior to that, The Fed had to have enough gold or silver on hand to cover any amount that the citizens might want to trade their silver or gold certificates for. Therefore, The Fed can't inflate certificate money beyond its current inventory of physical gold or silver. For the same reason, the government can't deficit spend. This forces the government to 'live within its means' just as individuals and corporations must do. There's nothing magical about gold or silver. They are limited in availability, have commercial uses, and unless prevented by governments can be traded for goods and services worldwide. (I fear we'll need to use this barter ability in the near future.)

The US debt is indicative of a government consuming too many resources. European governments consume about 49% of their country's GDP. The US federal government currently consumes about 25% of GDP. Even the CBO projects it to grow to 43% by 2050. State and local governments currently consume 10% to 15%. So, the US will have a larger government than any European government today except Ireland. The chronically high unemployment rates and slow economic growth in most of Europe portend what's in store for the US if it stays on its current trajectory.

How can the government continue to borrow without revenues (a.k.a. taxes) to service that debt? Or how can the government do what an individual or corporation can't do without going bankrupt? There's no free lunch.

Since the US dollar is the world's reserve currency (for now) other countries have been willing to lend us money cheaply. As our creditor countries realize the reality of the situation, they will raise their interest rates and the US will be in Greece's situation. More of the US budget will be spent to service the increased interest rate. Somewhere in this process the US could decide to default on its debts, which will make those holding US Treasury debt instruments upset. We've already seen from the debt ceiling issue in 2011 that there's no political will for the US to default. So, The Fed will create more fiat money creating more debt. All of this will ramp up exponentially and we'll be in hyperinflation. The average inflation rate over the last forty years is about 3.4%, but ln(2)/ln(1+.034) = 21 years. The loan amount will double in 21 years. But that's without an increasing deficit interest, which will make the curve an exponential. People and corporations can't pay suppliers. Suppliers won't accept the worthless fiat money, so, water, food, and gas stop flowing.

How bad will it get before an enlightened majority controls Congress to allow sound money and produce a balanced budget? Or will the majority let it get much worse and collapse on its own? All our futures depend on getting this right.
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#26 iNow 


SuperNerd
Except, we're not seeing hyperinflation... in fact, inflation is intensely low right now by historical standards... and a return to the gold standard would only work if we were an isolated nation instead of a global economy. In a global economy, such an event would equivalent to offering rocks as trade for computers. All a gold standard would do would be to make business cycles more extreme. We would no longer be able to soften the shocks of inflation and deflation. We would be unable to deal with unemployment, the negative trends of the business cycle would merely be reinforced, and I haven't even touched on the challenges with the tiny gold reserves in existence. Your approach would exacerbate the problems, not resolve them.

You are sharing ideas from a school of economics that has been REPEATEDLY and consistently shown to make false predictions... a school that has NOT altered their view DESPITE evidence showing that view to be wrong. Why do you continue to listen to that view? Is ideology perhaps more important to you than evidence and facts?
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#27 TruthSleuth 


Lepton
No, we're not in hyperinflation yet, because the Fed is pumping dollars into the system. This pumping may stave off the inevitable for five or maybe ten years. No one can predict that--not even the Keynesians. But exponentials go up very fast in a short period of time toward the end of their curve. Look at the CPI curve I referenced using the Fed's own data. And the debt is increasing as we speak. We're on the Titanic and Congress is arguing about the bar tab.

Your rebuttals are right out of the government/Keynesian doctrine. Those are the folks that created this situation.

Again, what magic allows the government to inflate the currency and deficit spend without going bankrupt while everyone else would go bankrupt? The Fed's monopoly of the fiat money system depends on growth to offset the interest paid to its affiliate banks. The fact is the US is already insoluble from an NPV standpoint. If you need more facts, look up USA, Inc. My link compiled by a bipartisan group.

As for reality, Bernanke said there wasn't a housing bubble, but there was. The Fed kept the interest rates artificially low and that increased the bubble by bringing more speculators and home owners into the bubble. Higher interest rates would have stopped the speculation, the misallocation of resources and encouraged people to save. In an October 4, 2010 speech, even Bernanke said the federal budget is on an unsustainable path. The Austrians got it right, not the monetarists/Keynesians.

But here's the bottom line. If a majority don't recognize that the US's current economic trajectory is unsustainable or expect the same doctrine that got us here to get us out, then things are going to get much worse than they would if correction were done sooner. Unfortunately, the majority will take the minority down with them. =(
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#28 calabi 


Quark

View PostiNow, on 8 February 2012 - 01:37 AM, said:

How is that a valid argument? "I think economists haven't taken time to understand inflation, that they just assume stuff... so that's why I don't trust them!"

Seriously?


Have you looked at their evidence? How is that not a valid question? How can they even accurately record inflation? There whole theory is based on fallacious assumptions. If you assume too much then you end up looking like an idiot.

http://unlearningeco...ogy-a-critique/
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#29 CaptainPanic 


Icon
Usually himself

View Postcalabi, on 8 February 2012 - 02:25 PM, said:

Have you looked at their evidence? How is that not a valid question? How can they even accurately record inflation? There whole theory is based on fallacious assumptions. If you assume too much then you end up looking like an idiot.

http://unlearningeco...ogy-a-critique/

Well... I think that we have pretty much nailed down what inflation is. But we don't exactly know why it is. And certainly not where it's going to.
Inflation is the increase of the average price level of pretty much everything. And that's being measured as you would expect: By looking at price levels of a lot of things, and taking a weighted average of their relative changes.

But I do think you have some kind of a point (and I risk repeating myself). There are multiple theories on why inflation is... and in fact, there are probably multiple good answers as well as multiple wrong ones. And we cannot seem to agree on which one is correct.
But it gets only really vague if we try to predict what the inflation will do in a few months from now... we're better at predicting the weather in 10 days from now than the inflation or the stock market.
Veni, vidi, modeli - I came, I saw, and I modeled it
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#30 CharonY 


Icon
Biology Expert
However, not all economics is about predicting outcomes. If that was the case a lot of natural sciences would be considered useless, too. Try to predict complex cellular behavior with some level of accuracy, for instance.
Economics deals with relative fuzzy mechanisms and these often allow the existence of competing theoretical framework within which they are explained. One could draw a parallel, to say biochemistry. The micromechanisms (i.e. biochemical reactions/individual transactions) can be explained/described relatively accurately, e.g. in terms of reaction kinetics or economical constraints. However, the combination of all these mechanisms results in new and complex traits that are not easily explained and much less predicted.
It does not mean that trying to understand them is worthless, though. However, one could accuse economists, especially those own economic interests and ties with decision-makers that they may be pandering to certain theories despite inconsistencies with data. This is something that (should) happen with less frequency in natural sciences. Not necessarily because we are better people, but likely because that there are fewer ties with companies, partisan think-tanks, etc.


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#31 calabi 


Quark

View PostCaptainPanic, on 8 February 2012 - 02:53 PM, said:

Well... I think that we have pretty much nailed down what inflation is. But we don't exactly know why it is. And certainly not where it's going to.
Inflation is the increase of the average price level of pretty much everything. And that's being measured as you would expect: By looking at price levels of a lot of things, and taking a weighted average of their relative changes.

But I do think you have some kind of a point (and I risk repeating myself). There are multiple theories on why inflation is... and in fact, there are probably multiple good answers as well as multiple wrong ones. And we cannot seem to agree on which one is correct.
But it gets only really vague if we try to predict what the inflation will do in a few months from now... we're better at predicting the weather in 10 days from now than the inflation or the stock market.


We havent got an accurate measure of inflation.

http://news.bbc.co.u...ess/6266733.stm
http://en.wikipedia....mer_price_index

They still arent certain about exactly what they should measure. I know there are lots of arguments about it. There shouldnt be any questions, if they are going to decide policies on it. Look where we are today, peoples wages are far behind inflation.

http://www.thisismon...anged-1900.html

They cant have been calculating it that well.
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#32 iNow 


SuperNerd
Jebus, man... You act like they're reading tea leaves or practicing astrology. You need to review what the prominent economists are actually sharing and doing and discussing when it comes to inflation.

http://krugman.blogs.../26/core-notes/
http://macroblog.typ...then-again.html

http://krugman.blogs.../26/core-logic/

Here's my problem, in a nutshell. You're not arguing against what people are actually saying and doing. You're arguing against what you THINK they're saying and doing.
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#33 calabi 


Quark

View PostiNow, on 8 February 2012 - 06:35 PM, said:

Jebus, man... You act like they're reading tea leaves or practicing astrology. You need to review what the prominent economists are actually sharing and doing and discussing when it comes to inflation.

http://krugman.blogs.../26/core-notes/
http://macroblog.typ...then-again.html

http://krugman.blogs.../26/core-logic/

Here's my problem, in a nutshell. You're not arguing against what people are actually saying and doing. You're arguing against what you THINK they're saying and doing.


I know exactly what I'm arguing about. In fact your posts support my argument that inflation isnt settled or clear.
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#34 iNow 


SuperNerd
I thought your argument was:

Quote

[If I] ask myself how hard most economists worked for their knowledge, I can't help thinking they haven't worked hard for it at all. I don't think they've worked hard to know what inflation is, or whether it can or should be targeted. I think they've just assumed it, and anyone can do that.

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#35 CaptainPanic 


Icon
Usually himself

View PostCharonY, on 8 February 2012 - 04:41 PM, said:

However, not all economics is about predicting outcomes. If that was the case a lot of natural sciences would be considered useless, too. Try to predict complex cellular behavior with some level of accuracy, for instance.
Economics deals with relative fuzzy mechanisms and these often allow the existence of competing theoretical framework within which they are explained. One could draw a parallel, to say biochemistry. The micromechanisms (i.e. biochemical reactions/individual transactions) can be explained/described relatively accurately, e.g. in terms of reaction kinetics or economical constraints. However, the combination of all these mechanisms results in new and complex traits that are not easily explained and much less predicted.

I disagree. We can build biochemical factories that produce reliably. We can predict the working of the microorganisms to such an extent that we can tell a customer to the day and hour when their order can be produced and delivered. So, we understand some micromechanisms, but we can also successfully blackbox the whole thing, and still get a reliable prediction. Even some complex ecosystem like a rainforest can be blackboxed and simplified so that we can make predictions... and getting more data will improve predictions.

Physics and chemistry will always stick to the same rules of nature. Biology slowly changes as ecosystems evolve... But economics tries to describe human financial behavior. That changes so fast that by the time a model is developed, the boundary conditions of that model will have stopped to exist.

So, yes, there is some point in studying economics... just like studying history can be useful. We can learn from history. But we cannot simply extrapolate our current society into the future solely based on historical facts. Unfortunately, economists who predict future trends do exactly that (if they aren't completely biased, and even ignore history altogether).

I agree that not all economics is about predicting outcomes... but the economists that have the power all predict the future. I am talking about economists that advise governments, or those in the national banks, those in Moody's and other rating agencies, those in a company's board of directors. None of them are really interested in the past. They all gamble about the future.

This post has been edited by CaptainPanic: 9 February 2012 - 08:41 AM

Veni, vidi, modeli - I came, I saw, and I modeled it
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#36 calabi 


Quark

View PostiNow, on 8 February 2012 - 11:23 PM, said:

I thought your argument was:




That wasnt my argument thats a quote from someone else, but its true what they are saying, how do we know inflation is important, and they have the best way to measure it?

http://en.wikipedia....United_Kingdom)

Here it looks like they are calculating an average of the products. Thats not going to be clear or accurate, its being question and they are deciding policies on it. In my opinion using inaccurate or not fully understood information is worse than just going with your gut.

But what about business's making decisions on wages to do with inflation. One of those figures isnt actual inflation its the flow of inflation or whatever. When your deciding wages surely you need to be really clear about inflation, what exactly has went up and by how much, also you have to add all of them together. If inflation is 5percent across the board(which I know is highly unlikely, but just serves as an example). You cant just increase wages by 5 percent or a certain amount. You would have to increase wages by 15percent at least or some other higher number if all the things people buy has gone up by five percent. Otherwise your just asking for a gradual decline in living standards like we have now.

In my opinion there are simpler ways instead of tracking all the products, just track individual peoples incomes and outcomes. Get a distribution of people and find out the median values of the amounts they spend on bills food and essentials and how much disposable income, and track how much they change over time.

This post has been edited by calabi: 9 February 2012 - 12:51 PM

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#37 CharonY 


Icon
Biology Expert

Quote

We can predict the working of the microorganisms to such an extent that we can tell a customer to the day and hour when their order can be produced and delivered. So, we understand some micromechanisms, but we can also successfully blackbox the whole thing, and still get a reliable prediction.


I disagree with that. The blackboxing is based on empirical data and very rough statistical inference, i.e. we know that they grow at roughly that particular rate and then expect them to be ready in roughly the same time frame. The key here is that normal biological noise is being suppressed (i.e. using chemostats or standardized batch-techniques, for instance) so that fairly rough models that use little if any biological information and mechanism can give out (simple) parameters with a certain degree of accuracy.

The equivalent in economics would look at the same resource distributions and roughly predict flow under the very same conditions and predict the outcome, which is somewhat feasible. But as with biological behavior under realistic conditions the data is usually much, much noisier.

Now I challenge you to predict the growth rate of a cell population with a new sugar source with any degree of accuracy. Now with several parameters changed. Now add a stress and try to predict metabolic changes. Now with several varying parameters and a given mutation. Now let us add gradients and microenvironments and complex populations. And how about predicting behavior of single cells?

We are not able to predict e.g. the proteome or metabolome changes in an organism upon environmental changes, nor are we able to use that data to accurately predict the current state of a given cell. Predictive biological models are really very very unreliable.

This post has been edited by CharonY: 9 February 2012 - 08:15 PM

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#38 iNow 


SuperNerd

View PostCaptainPanic, on 7 February 2012 - 04:58 PM, said:

Econ 101?

Which one from this list is "Econ 101"?

I thought I'd share this article I read this morning which touches on this theme a bit:


http://mainlymacro.b...of-thought.html

Quote

The microfoundation of macroeconomics does logically imply that mainstream macro should be as free from alternative schools as microeconomics. This would require freshwater macroeconomists to recognise that New Keynesian models are essentially RBC models plus sticky prices, and that the addition of price rigidity was not that offensive. All would recognise that the conditions in which fiscal policy was a major stabilisation tool were either rather unusual (the zero bound), or geographically remote (monetary union), and so not something to get so worked up about. Freshwater economists would come to realise that demand denial just did not make academic sense.
I fear a more realistic conclusion is that the Keynesian/Anti-Keynesian division is always going to be with us, because it reflects an ideological divide about state intervention. (For some supporting evidence, see here.) That divide occurs all the time in microeconomics, but because it involves arguing about many different externalities or imperfections it does not lend itself to fragmentation into schools. In macro, however, there is one critical externality to do with price rigidity, and so disagreements about policy can easily be mapped into differences about theory. Demand denial is attractive because it gives a non-ideological justification for what is essentially an ideological position about economic policy.






View Postcalabi, on 9 February 2012 - 12:50 PM, said:

In my opinion there are simpler ways instead of tracking all the products, just track individual peoples incomes and outcomes. Get a distribution of people and find out the median values of the amounts they spend on bills food and essentials and how much disposable income, and track how much they change over time.

The challenge with this is you're likely to over react to temporary headline inflation... short term shocks to things like oil prices or corn prices... while the background core inflation is rather steady or even declining. I understand that simple one-dimensional answers are attractive, but they're very often rather limited and need to be understood as such.




View PostCharonY, on 8 February 2012 - 04:41 PM, said:

However, not all economics is about predicting outcomes. If that was the case a lot of natural sciences would be considered useless, too. Try to predict complex cellular behavior with some level of accuracy, for instance.
Economics deals with relative fuzzy mechanisms and these often allow the existence of competing theoretical framework within which they are explained. One could draw a parallel, to say biochemistry.

Indeed.


http://noahpinionblo...els-can-be.html

Quote

Conditional predictions are different than unconditional predictions. If your modeling goal is to say with confidence that "A financial crisis will occur at 9:01 A.M. on February 17, 2012," then Levine is right; you are probably not going to succeed. However, if your modeling goal is to say: "Unless X policy is taken first, a financial crisis will occur at 9:01 A.M. on February 17, 2012," then you have a chance of succeeding. Why? Because unless investors can predict whether policy X will be taken, then knowing that the model is correct doesn't allow them to make riskless profits. And of course, conditional predictions are the kind policymakers usually care about. So Levine is wrong in cases where policy is decisive.

As a side note, even in cases where Levine is right, this does not make modeling crises a useless exercise. It may be that increasing our understanding of the causes of crises leads to a decrease in the amount of crises rather than an increase in our ability to predict the timing of the crises that do occur. But that's fine! It means that the benefit of better crisis modeling accrued to society instead of to the modelers. That just means that research into the causes of crises generates a positive externality, and should therefore be subsidized by the government and/or some other collective public-goods provision mechanism.

And it means that critics of the econ profession who say "You economists didn't pay enough attention to models of financial crises" can still be right, even if Levine is right!

This post has been edited by iNow: 9 February 2012 - 11:09 PM

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