Jasper J Posted March 8, 2017 Share Posted March 8, 2017 I am in awe of what Elon Musk is doing with the Gigafactory and the mass production of Li-ion batteries, but I can't help but think of some problems that I hope some of you guys can explain solutions for. 1. The relative abundance of lithium in the Earth's crust is low, is there enough lithium that is easily accessible to facilitate power storage for the Earth? And If we have to expand our mining operations how damaging would that be to the planet? 2. Recycling of degraded Li-ion batteries. When Li-ion batteries energy capacity has been depleted is there any way to recover the lithium from the spent battery with a good yield? Surely if we can't produce a very good yield of Lithium from spent batteries we are just using up another finite resource and having to dig deeper and deeper to get more of it? Is there any efficient way of covering our energy needs via renewable energy sources without the use of electrical storage? I hope these questions aren't too stupid, Josh. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EdEarl Posted March 8, 2017 Share Posted March 8, 2017 Wikipedia Worldwide identified reserves in 2008 were estimated by the US Geological Survey (USGS) to be 13 million tonnes,[43] though an accurate estimate of world lithium reserves is difficult. World production in 2014 was 36,000 tons. Wikipedia Copper mining is measured in millions of tons each year; thus, lithium mining will disturb the Earth less. Iron mining is over a thousand million tons each year; lithium mining is much less. Lithium can be recycled. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jasper J Posted March 8, 2017 Author Share Posted March 8, 2017 World production in 2014 was 36,000 tons. Wikipedia Copper mining is measured in millions of tons each year; thus, lithium mining will disturb the Earth less. Iron mining is over a thousand million tons each year; lithium mining is much less. Lithium can be recycled. Yes there is less Lithium than copper but the problem is that the demand for Lithium is increasing at rate that will exhaust all the larger reserves of lithium very quickly. It is very sparsely distributed in the Earths crust so we will have to mine many separate locations to keep up with demand, that is where I am worried about the environmental impact. I am aware you can already recycle lithium ion batteries but I was wondering if the recovery of Lithium from used batteries was efficient. I read that the SEI layer buildup of Lithium carbonate on the anode cannot be removed. Is this correct? Im guessing that if it could be removed it would take a large amount of energy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StringJunky Posted March 8, 2017 Share Posted March 8, 2017 I think, before supply becomes a problem other sources will be mainstream. It's quite a high priority because lithium batteries can be quite incendiary and thermal stability is not great, as well as the general drive for more energy-density and improving the number of charge-cycles. Potassium and sodium ions are two such avenues. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jasper J Posted March 8, 2017 Author Share Posted March 8, 2017 I think, before supply becomes a problem other sources will be mainstream. It's quite a high priority because lithium batteries can be quite incendiary and thermal stability is not great, as well as the general drive for more energy-density and improving the number of charge-cycles. Potassium and sodium ions are two such avenues. I do hope that we find better and cheaper alternatives to Lithium ion batteries, but it seems like Tesla are completely set on only using Lithium ion batteries specifically for their cars. They plan on making more Lithium ion batteries than the rest of the world combined in that factory within the next 10 years. This mass production factory will drive down the costs of Lithium ion batteries and probably create some sort of monopoly on batteries, at least in the electric vehicle market. I never hear Elon Musk discussing anything other than Lithium batteries, do you think the demand for Tesla cars alone could outpace sustainable production? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Cuthber Posted March 8, 2017 Share Posted March 8, 2017 I think, before supply becomes a problem other sources will be mainstream. It's quite a high priority because lithium batteries can be quite incendiary and thermal stability is not great, as well as the general drive for more energy-density and improving the number of charge-cycles. Potassium and sodium ions are two such avenues. The problem is that each electron transferred takes an atom/ion of the alkali metal. So, for a given charge the mass of material needed is (broadly) proportional to the atomic weight. About 7 for Li, 23 for Na and 39 for K Batteries made using lithium are lightweight. Also ( though less critically) the voltage (and thus energy) is slightly higher for Li than the other alkali metals. Fundamentally, Lithium is really good at this. One aspect of good news- the recovery of lithium from spent cells should be pretty near 100% Also this might help- though I fel sorry for the wildlife https://www.technologyreview.com/s/538036/quest-to-mine-seawater-for-lithium-advances/ 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StringJunky Posted March 8, 2017 Share Posted March 8, 2017 The problem is that each electron transferred takes an atom/ion of the alkali metal. So, for a given charge the mass of material needed is (broadly) proportional to the atomic weight. About 7 for Li, 23 for Na and 39 for K Batteries made using lithium are lightweight. Also ( though less critically) the voltage (and thus energy) is slightly higher for Li than the other alkali metals. Fundamentally, Lithium is really good at this. One aspect of good news- the recovery of lithium from spent cells should be pretty near 100% Also this might help- though I fel sorry for the wildlife https://www.technologyreview.com/s/538036/quest-to-mine-seawater-for-lithium-advances/ Interesting. Didn't realise about the weight difference; quite significant. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jasper J Posted March 9, 2017 Author Share Posted March 9, 2017 Interesting. Didn't realise about the weight difference; quite significant. Yes that is a very good point, it would be especially significant when thinking about electric cars where power to weight ratio is vital. The problem is that each electron transferred takes an atom/ion of the alkali metal. So, for a given charge the mass of material needed is (broadly) proportional to the atomic weight. About 7 for Li, 23 for Na and 39 for K Batteries made using lithium are lightweight. Also ( though less critically) the voltage (and thus energy) is slightly higher for Li than the other alkali metals. Fundamentally, Lithium is really good at this. One aspect of good news- the recovery of lithium from spent cells should be pretty near 100% Also this might help- though I fel sorry for the wildlife https://www.technologyreview.com/s/538036/quest-to-mine-seawater-for-lithium-advances/ Thanks for the information, your point about weight and energy is especially crucial when talking about electric cars where power-weight ratio is so important. I think the recovery of lithium from spent cells has to be near 100% for electric cars to be a permanent alternative, do you know of any sources that go into detail on lithium extraction from used batteries? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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