Could we hit Mars with this comet?

[Moontanman]

A a dress rehearsal for deflecting a comet from Earth do we currently have the ability to affect the course of this comet so it actually hits Mars? It has a 1/2000 chance of hitting the red planet but it will pass very close for sure. Should we if we could? It could be the first step in terraforming Mars.

 

Edited June 12, 2013 by Moontanman

[EdEarl]

Plans have been developed to deflect comets and asteroids away from Earth. It makes sense that the same technology might be used to deflect them into another planet. However, it is not been tried; thus, we do not know which of the plans, if any, would actually work. My guess is that at least one of the plans will work. Thus, the answer is yes, we can deflect something into Mars. Whether the technology is ready now is another good question. My guess is no it is not.

[Bignose]

It could be the first step in terraforming Mars.

Not sure what good hitting it with a comet would do towards terraforming Mars.......

[Moontanman]

Not sure what good hitting it with a comet would do towards terraforming Mars.......

 

 

That neg point was a mistake bignose, someone please give him a pos rep to cancel it out.

 

Hitting Mars with comets is a way to add volatiles to the planet which is one thing it lacks and makes it inhospitable to earth life. Additional CO2, water, ammonia, and methane ices are one way to terraform Mars.

[EdEarl]

That neg point was a mistake bignose, someone please give him a pos rep to cancel it out.

 

Hitting Mars with comets is a way to add volatiles to the planet which is one thing it lacks and makes it inhospitable to earth life. Additional CO2, water, ammonia, and methane ices are one way to terraform Mars.

Seems like a good idea to me, too. And, the additional mass would make it a tiny bit more like earth. But, big impacts like that might not be all good. I wouldn't want it to destroy Curiosity.

[SplitInfinity]

That neg point was a mistake bignose, someone please give him a pos rep to cancel it out.

 

Hitting Mars with comets is a way to add volatiles to the planet which is one thing it lacks and makes it inhospitable to earth life. Additional CO2, water, ammonia, and methane ices are one way to terraform Mars.

 

Mars already has a lot of Water Ice just below the surface and this has been seen bubbling out and freezing from within Impact Craters upon the Martian Surface.

 

The problem with attempts to Terraform Mars is that Mars no longer has the ability to generate a Magnetic Field and such fields like the one Earth generates...are responsible for protecting the planet and any life or atmosphere or water on a planet.

 

Mars lost it's at one time vast oceans to Solar and Cosmic Radiation that burned off those oceans as a result of a lack of a protective magnetic field. Any attempts at developing a Martian Atmosphere or developing large surface lakes of water would be a failure as without a protective magnetic fields such atmosphere and water would again be lost due to such radiation.

 

Even if a way to continually regenerate an atmosphere or waters upon Mars were possible...Life would be killed off due to radiation and a Human Being would last but a very short time on a Martian surface with such radiation bombardment.

 

Split Infinity

[Moontanman]

Mars already has a lot of Water Ice just below the surface and this has been seen bubbling out and freezing from within Impact Craters upon the Martian Surface.

 

The problem with attempts to Terraform Mars is that Mars no longer has the ability to generate a Magnetic Field and such fields like the one Earth generates...are responsible for protecting the planet and any life or atmosphere or water on a planet.

 

Mars lost it's at one time vast oceans to Solar and Cosmic Radiation that burned off those oceans as a result of a lack of a protective magnetic field. Any attempts at developing a Martian Atmosphere or developing large surface lakes of water would be a failure as without a protective magnetic fields such atmosphere and water would again be lost due to such radiation.

 

Even if a way to continually regenerate an atmosphere or waters upon Mars were possible...Life would be killed off due to radiation and a Human Being would last but a very short time on a Martian surface with such radiation bombardment.

 

Split Infinity

 

 

Think again... how long do you think it would take Mars to lose it's atmosphere? One comet would of course be a drop in the bucket, but just for shits and giggles lets say we could magically transfer an atmosphere equal to Earths instantly to Mars.

 

First of all it would take Mars hundreds of thousands of years to lose such an atmosphere, maybe millions. Secondly such an atmosphere is considerable protection from solar radiation, in fact more than enough to allow humans to live on the surface, the Earths poles is where solar particle radiation is deposited on the Earth, doesn't seem to keep humans or animals from living there but it makes for a beautiful aurora display...

[EdEarl]

Think again... how long do you think it would take Mars to lose it's atmosphere? One comet would of course be a drop in the bucket, but just for shits and giggles lets say we could magically transfer an atmosphere equal to Earths instantly to Mars.

 

First of all it would take Mars hundreds of thousands of years to lose such an atmosphere, maybe millions. Secondly such an atmosphere is considerable protection from solar radiation, in fact more than enough to allow humans to live on the surface, the Earths poles is where solar particle radiation is deposited on the Earth, doesn't seem to keep humans or animals from living there but it makes for a beautiful aurora display...

Also, astronauts survive on the ISS and have been to the moon. Solar radiation is dangerous, but the danger varies depending on sunspot activity.

[SplitInfinity]

Think again... how long do you think it would take Mars to lose it's atmosphere? One comet would of course be a drop in the bucket, but just for shits and giggles lets say we could magically transfer an atmosphere equal to Earths instantly to Mars.

 

First of all it would take Mars hundreds of thousands of years to lose such an atmosphere, maybe millions. Secondly such an atmosphere is considerable protection from solar radiation, in fact more than enough to allow humans to live on the surface, the Earths poles is where solar particle radiation is deposited on the Earth, doesn't seem to keep humans or animals from living there but it makes for a beautiful aurora display...

 

What good is having an atmosphere if a person cannot walk around the surface of Mars without a shielded suit?

 

Even with an atmosphere without proper protection Solar and Cosmic Radiation would Microwave your body to a state of...VERY DEAD...in short order.

 

Split Infinity

 

Also, astronauts survive on the ISS and have been to the moon. Solar radiation is dangerous, but the danger varies depending on sunspot activity.

 

Ed...if the ISS was not properly shielded and even if the astronauts did not encounter any massive Solar Flares...they would be ZAPPED DEAD without such shielding very quickly.

 

Split Infinity

[Moontanman]

What good is having an atmosphere if a person cannot walk around the surface of Mars without a shielded suit?

 

Even with an atmosphere without proper protection Solar and Cosmic Radiation would Microwave your body to a state of...VERY DEAD...in short order.

 

Split Infinity

 

Again I'll try to clue you in, the earths magnetic field is not the main shielding, the magnetic field helps and it prevents loss of the atmosphere but a thick atmosphere is more than enough shielding to allow us to walk around on the surface. Charged particles from the sun are directed to the poles by the magnetic field and it's safe to walk around there...

 

Ed...if the ISS was not properly shielded and even if the astronauts did not encounter any massive Solar Flares...they would be ZAPPED DEAD without such shielding very quickly.

 

Split Infinity

 

Actually the ISS is inside the earths magnetic field, it's material shielding is minimal...

 

[SplitInfinity]

 

Again I'll try to clue you in, the earths magnetic field is not the main shielding, the magnetic field helps and it prevents loss of the atmosphere but a thick atmosphere is more than enough shielding to allow us to walk around on the surface. Charged particles from the sun are directed to the poles by the magnetic field and it's safe to walk around there...

 

 

Actually the ISS is inside the earths magnetic field, it's material shielding is minimal...

 

 

You should take a look at how long Life on Earth would survive in the even Earth Magnetic Field Collapsed. It is NOT a very long time...and if such a thing happened it would be considered an Extinction Level Event for ALL LIFE on the Earth Surface all the way down tens of meters deep.

 

Even with Earth's Atmosphere...Solar and Cosmic Radiation...never mind Solar Flares...would penetrate our Atmosphere well enough to kill us all if we were not shielded. Shielding itself would not even be sufficient during high solar flare activity and atmospheric Warm Up would be a disaster.

 

Split Infinity

[Ophiolite]

Split Infinity, provide citations please to justify your unwarranted claim that the absence of a magnetic field would be disastrous for Earth life. Repeating popular mythology on this point is not convincing. Moontanman's points are, in my understanding valid. To change that understanding you need to come up with facts.

 

Moontanman, I have seen estimates that an Earth type atmosphere would be eroded in around 50,000 years, rather than the possible millions you proposed. I cannot currently find a copy of the research paper I read that in. However, we might reasonably anticipate that the technological advances possible in, say, 10,000 years would provide us with a solution.

 

(A neat trick would be to direct the comets to hit from a specific angle to reduce the rotational speed of the planet. I haven't done the calculations, but it might be possible to slow it down so the Martian day matched the Earth's precisely, rather than being half an hour longer. )

[SplitInfinity]

Split Infinity, provide citations please to justify your unwarranted claim that the absence of a magnetic field would be disastrous for Earth life. Repeating popular mythology on this point is not convincing. Moontanman's points are, in my understanding valid. To change that understanding you need to come up with facts.

 

Moontanman, I have seen estimates that an Earth type atmosphere would be eroded in around 50,000 years, rather than the possible millions you proposed. I cannot currently find a copy of the research paper I read that in. However, we might reasonably anticipate that the technological advances possible in, say, 10,000 years would provide us with a solution.

 

(A neat trick would be to direct the comets to hit from a specific angle to reduce the rotational speed of the planet. I haven't done the calculations, but it might be possible to slow it down so the Martian day matched the Earth's precisely, rather than being half an hour longer. )

 

Split Infinity, provide citations please to justify your unwarranted claim that the absence of a magnetic field would be disastrous for Earth life. Repeating popular mythology on this point is not convincing. Moontanman's points are, in my understanding valid. To change that understanding you need to come up with facts.

 

Moontanman, I have seen estimates that an Earth type atmosphere would be eroded in around 50,000 years, rather than the possible millions you proposed. I cannot currently find a copy of the research paper I read that in. However, we might reasonably anticipate that the technological advances possible in, say, 10,000 years would provide us with a solution.

 

(A neat trick would be to direct the comets to hit from a specific angle to reduce the rotational speed of the planet. I haven't done the calculations, but it might be possible to slow it down so the Martian day matched the Earth's precisely, rather than being half an hour longer. )

 

Here is just one link of many...http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2002/nov/10/science.research

 

Split Infinity

[CaptainPanic]

Split Infinity, that link merely says that satellites would be destroyed. I cannot find where it says we all die. It does suggest that the atmosphere "boiled off" on Mars, suggesting it has had a liquid atmosphere... which is nonsense. As a scientific article therefore this is not the most convincing. Wouldn't it be easier to admit you were probably exaggerating things a bit?

Sure, radiation is dangerous, and possibly the life span of humans on Mars would be shorter than on earth. And possibly cancer would be an even higher risk there. But life would not be impossible.

On a sidenote, as others have said already: the atmosphere itself blocks a lot of radiation too. This is why commercial pilots actually get a measurably higher dose of radiation. They aren't toast either.

 

On another sidenote: the Earth's atmosphere has a mass of around 5*10^18 kg. Because Mars is smaller, it would need less atmosphere. Also, you could possibly do without all that useless nitrogen. But you'd still want at least, say, 1*10^17 kg of atmosphere (50 times less than we have). Estimates say this particular comet is 1 to 50 km in diameter. Let's assume it's 50 km in diameter (and let's assume it's a cube, lol). Assuming a density of 1000 kg/m3, this means it has a mass of 1.25*10^17 kg, which is surprisingly close to the weight of our Martian atmosphere. I admit this is all very much simplified. That comet is not made of gases only. It's probably a lot of rock and water too. But it would add a significant amount of potentially atmospheric material.

 

(A neat trick would be to direct the comets to hit from a specific angle to reduce the rotational speed of the planet. I haven't done the calculations, but it might be possible to slow it down so the Martian day matched the Earth's precisely, rather than being half an hour longer. )

 

I'd propose a 28-hour day instead. I can never get out of bed, meaning the night is too short. And in the evening I don't want to go to sleep, meaning the daytime is too short as well. That means that 24 hours is just too short.

[Ophiolite]

Here is just one link of many...http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2002/nov/10/science.research

 

Split Infinity

Two points.

 

1. When one asks for a citation on a science forum one generally refers to a peer reviewed research paper, not a popular science treatment, even if it is from a paper as reputable as the Observer. Please provide such a citation from the 'many' you have available.

 

2. The link provides absolutely nothing to support your argument. Here, specifically, is what they say would happen during the reduction in magnetic field we could expect during a pole reversal.

 

"The effects could be catastrophic. Powerful radiation bursts, which normally never touch the atmosphere, would heat up its upper layers, triggering climatic disruption. Navigation and communication satellites, Earth's eyes and ears, would be destroyed and migrating animals left unable to navigate."

 

Did you get that? Climate disruption, satellites destroyed and migratory animals unable to navigate. Absolutely nothing about radiation damage to the biosphere. Let me adapt Captain Panic's question. Wouldn't it be easier to accept you are mistaken?

[Moontanman]

Ophiolite I used to have a link to a site that allowed that calculation to be made just by plugging in the parameters of molecular weight of the gasses and the gravity but it is long gone. I was basing my estimate on what i remembered from that site. Earths Moon, by that sites figures, could hold onto an atmosphere in the range of 50,000 years for a half life, Mars was considerably longer and it's half life was in the hundreds of thousands of years. But I no longer have that info and I have no idea how accurate the site was...

The idea of changing the rotation of mars is interesting, would such a change have a chance of restoring a magnetic field? maybe speeding the planet up a little? if we are going to slow it down lets go for a 36 hour day, no need to stop at 28. I used to work 12 hour shifts, 12 hours of work, 8 hours of sleep and 16 hours of play, sounds good to me...

[EdEarl]

The idea of changing the rotation of mars is interesting, .... if we are going to slow it down lets go for a 36 hour day, ..., sounds good to me..

I like it, only 2/3s as many birthdays

[CaptainPanic]

I like it, only 2/3s as many birthdays

 

Following that logic, you can leave Earth an adult, and arrive on Mars a teenager, and creative bookkeeping is the only trick you need. But we're going off topic now

[Moontanman]

What good is having an atmosphere if a person cannot walk around the surface of Mars without a shielded suit?

 

Even with an atmosphere without proper protection Solar and Cosmic Radiation would Microwave your body to a state of...VERY DEAD...in short order.

 

btw, are you suggesting that a magnetic field can block electromagnetic radiation?

[SplitInfinity]

Split Infinity, that link merely says that satellites would be destroyed. I cannot find where it says we all die. It does suggest that the atmosphere "boiled off" on Mars, suggesting it has had a liquid atmosphere... which is nonsense. As a scientific article therefore this is not the most convincing. Wouldn't it be easier to admit you were probably exaggerating things a bit?

 

Sure, radiation is dangerous, and possibly the life span of humans on Mars would be shorter than on earth. And possibly cancer would be an even higher risk there. But life would not be impossible.

 

On a sidenote, as others have said already: the atmosphere itself blocks a lot of radiation too. This is why commercial pilots actually get a measurably higher dose of radiation. They aren't toast either.

 

On another sidenote: the Earth's atmosphere has a mass of around 5*10^18 kg. Because Mars is smaller, it would need less atmosphere. Also, you could possibly do without all that useless nitrogen. But you'd still want at least, say, 1*10^17 kg of atmosphere (50 times less than we have). Estimates say this particular comet is 1 to 50 km in diameter. Let's assume it's 50 km in diameter (and let's assume it's a cube, lol). Assuming a density of 1000 kg/m3, this means it has a mass of 1.25*10^17 kg, which is surprisingly close to the weight of our Martian atmosphere. I admit this is all very much simplified. That comet is not made of gases only. It's probably a lot of rock and water too. But it would add a significant amount of potentially atmospheric material.

 

 

I'd propose a 28-hour day instead. I can never get out of bed, meaning the night is too short. And in the evening I don't want to go to sleep, meaning the daytime is too short as well. That means that 24 hours is just too short.

 

My statements detailing a person being killed QUICKLY by Solar and Cosmic Radiation...and I did not even go into Solar Flares...were replies to being on Mars as it was Terraformed...as well as being aboard the ISS without the benefit of Radiation Shielding.

 

In both cases without protection a person would quickly be dead.

 

Now I said something to the nature of...What good is an atmosphere if a planet has no magnetic field so a person would have to wear a protective suit?

 

Without a magnetic field Solar and Cosmic Radiation would breakdown the atmosphere being created probably close to...at or to a greater extent and rate than such an atmosphere could be created. As well people would have to wear protective shielding even with an atmosphere and in the event of Solar Flares...well...Forget It!

 

As far as Earth's magnetic field failing...the atmosphere would protect us for a period but as such things as the Ozone Layer decayed as well Solar and Cosmic Radiation would cause Atmospheric Warm Up...which would have incredible potential to create destructive reactions. Crops would die off and so would life in our oceans.

 

It would be just a matter of 5 to 10 years before Humanity would face mass deaths by starvation, radiation based cancer and disease and mutation.

 

Animal life would be impacted immediately as birds and ocean life depend upon the magnetic fields for orientation.

 

Anyway you look at this the Earth would be dying.

 

Split Infinity

 

btw, are you suggesting that a magnetic field can block electromagnetic radiation?

 

The Earth's Magnetic Field deflects Solar Wind which is comprised of High Energy Particles...mostly Protons and Electrons...which are generated by our Sun.

 

Also Earth's Magnetic Field deflects Cosmic Rays which are also High Energy Particles of both Mass and Energy. The Cosmic Rays specific to energy are at the X-Ray and above upon the EM Spectrum . The particles of mass are mostly Protons.

 

Split Infinity

[CaptainPanic]

My statements detailing a person being killed QUICKLY by Solar and Cosmic Radiation...and I did not even go into Solar Flares...were replies to being on Mars as it was Terraformed...as well as being aboard the ISS without the benefit of Radiation Shielding.

 

In both cases without protection a person would quickly be dead.

 

And we have pointed out multiple reasons why this is not true. So, it is now time for you to provide us with a link of a research that shows this. All you are doing is repeating yourself, and that is not good enough anymore.

 

Just show us what the radiation protection of the ISS is made of (hint: thin aluminium).

 

Here is an article about the ISS. It says the "shielding is disappointing", and a 3-month stay is equal to 10% of the cancer risk of long term smokers. In my book, that is not "being killed quickly".

And here is a list of materials and how much shielding they provide. Notice that air is on that list too, suggesting that the atmosphere itself will shield you.

[SplitInfinity]

And we have pointed out multiple reasons why this is not true. So, it is now time for you to provide us with a link of a research that shows this. All you are doing is repeating yourself, and that is not good enough anymore.

 

Just show us what the radiation protection of the ISS is made of (hint: thin aluminium).

 

Here is an article about the ISS. It says the "shielding is disappointing", and a 3-month stay is equal to 10% of the cancer risk of long term smokers. In my book, that is not "being killed quickly".

And here is a list of materials and how much shielding they provide. Notice that air is on that list too, suggesting that the atmosphere itself will shield you.

 

You know...I was wrong about part of this...and if I am wrong I will admit it.

 

Because the ISS is in Low Earth Orbit and thus is protected to an extent by Earth's Magnetic Field...as long as there are no Solar Flares or Massive Cosmic Ray Bursts...even an unshielded astronaut will not get irradiated to the point they will die in short order.

 

Now this is different if there is a Solar Flare or a Cosmic Radiation Burst or Event. In this case even if the ISS Astronauts go to the most shielded area of the station it is not a guarantee they will survive large Radiation events. An UNSHIELDED ASTRONAUT would instantly receive a LETHAL DOSE OF RADIATION...but as I said...I was wrong about a non-Solar Flare Event or a Non-Cosmic Ray Burst Event.

 

As far as an Unshielded Astronaut in interplanetary space...they will die for certain but to radiation.

 

Split Infinity