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obtaining sodium azide


chilled_fluorine

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Last time I checked, sodium azide was the "active" ingredient in car airbags. Synthesis is dangerous, and uses hard to obtain ingredients (sodium metal, hydrazoic acid). Shouldn't we be able to go down to the car junkyard, cut open a few airbags, and get ourselves a nice pile of sodium azide? Controlled thermal decomposition could yield quite a bit of powdered sodium, and some nitrogen gas. I think anyone reading this knows what they would do with a pile of powdered sodium blink.gifMy questions for you: How would I go about doing this "safely"? What tools would I need to get at the good stuff? How do I find a local car junkyard?

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Last time I checked, sodium azide was the "active" ingredient in car airbags. Synthesis is dangerous, and uses hard to obtain ingredients (sodium metal, hydrazoic acid). Shouldn't we be able to go down to the car junkyard, cut open a few airbags, and get ourselves a nice pile of sodium azide?

For liability reasons, at least in my state in the US, no. They won't let you remove a potentially explosive part on their property since you aren't covered by their insurance. If the junkyard is licensed to remove it and allowed to sell it, it will probably won't be cheap (but cheaper than new, of course).

 

Many US states make it illegal to sell airbags that haven't been rebuilt to certain specifications. They assume you want it to put in a vehicle, not get the chemicals out of it. You could let them know that's what you want it for, and then you would be subject to a whole different set of laws.

 

How do I find a local car junkyard?

I think they purposely hide them from people who can't figure out how to find them.

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For liability reasons, at least in my state in the US, no. They won't let you remove a potentially explosive part on their property since you aren't covered by their insurance. If the junkyard is licensed to remove it and allowed to sell it, it will probably won't be cheap (but cheaper than new, of course).

 

Many US states make it illegal to sell airbags that haven't been rebuilt to certain specifications. They assume you want it to put in a vehicle, not get the chemicals out of it. You could let them know that's what you want it for, and then you would be subject to a whole different set of laws.

 

 

I think they purposely hide them from people who can't figure out how to find them.

 

I suppose I could find one, but I wouldn't know where to start. With a little bit of research, I'm sure it would be easy enough. I've heard there are websites out there for finding them. May I ask what state that is? Laws about potentially dangerous chems. are notoriously less strict here than in other parts of the usa. Couldn't I just sign one of their fancy waivers that say you can't sue them? To get into regular junkyards here, they make you sign one anyways. And in case anyone was going to ask, I don't want to make a bomb.laugh.gif

 

Check the obituary columns for people who died from azide poisoning, then contact their next of kin.

 

If you're trying to imply I don't know how to handle azides, you're wrong. If you actually want me to try that, that's really morbid, and I don't think there's been an azide poisoning in my state since the 90's.

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I suppose I could find one, but I wouldn't know where to start.

Yellow pages, Auto Salvage Yards or Auto Junkyards. Or Google the same in your city or zip code.

 

May I ask what state that is?

My state is CO. NY is one state that requires an airbag to be rebuilt to certain specs by a licensed rebuilder. I'm sure there are others, but they all assume you want the airbags to reinstall in a car. They will want to sell them to you if they've already removed them. It won't be cheap. Junkyards don't just let you come in and remove stuff without payment. They have dogs trained to prevent that.

 

Laws about potentially dangerous chems. are notoriously less strict here than in other parts of the usa. Couldn't I just sign one of their fancy waivers that say you can't sue them? To get into regular junkyards here, they make you sign one anyways.

The problem with those waivers is that they're worthless against a negligence suit (you really can't waive your right to sue someone who doesn't take the proper precautions), and it would be easy to prove the junkyard was negligent if they let you go poking around airbags that explode and have noxious chemicals in them.

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John, let's just agree that you can never be too careful. You have to take some risks in life, but I agree this one is not absolutely necessary. Are you per chance one of those people who is to afraid to cross the street, because they "might" get hit by a car

 

Phi, I thought you might say something about negligence. All though I've only gone to one, it seems like our junkyard is open to scrappers and the general public, and the man in charge let's me have whatever I want, no payment required. They are a bit cluttered, and just want to get rid of all that stuff. I never even considered they would make you pay for all that "garbage". Sounds like I have things luckier than most.

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Phi, I thought you might say something about negligence. All though I've only gone to one, it seems like our junkyard is open to scrappers and the general public, and the man in charge let's me have whatever I want, no payment required. They are a bit cluttered, and just want to get rid of all that stuff. I never even considered they would make you pay for all that "garbage". Sounds like I have things luckier than most.

Weeeeell, glad we could... help. :huh:

 

You shouldn't have any problems finding some free sodium azide, then. I wish you more luck than most.

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"John, let's just agree that you can never be too careful. You have to take some risks in life, but I agree this one is not absolutely necessary. Are you per chance one of those people who is to afraid to cross the street, because they "might" get hit by a car"

 

Nope, I'm someone who works with explosives from time to time: but I'm still alive.

I'm the sort of person who doesn't try to make something quite hazardous (like Na) by starting with something even more hazardous (like the azide).

It's a bit like wanting to cross the street but choosing to be fired from a cannon, because that way you are in transit for only a short time and are less likely to be hit by a car.

 

Good luck finding any sort of validation data for gloves + respirators for this stuff.

Also, you might want to look up the rate of transdermal absorption (if you can find any data for that).

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Weeeeell, glad we could... help. :huh:

 

You shouldn't have any problems finding some free sodium azide, then. I wish you more luck than most.

 

:chuckles: Thanks phi, it's the comments like that which make my day.laugh.gifSeriously though, they make you pay to take their garbage? I'll have to take my fill of stuff before they change their policies.

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Seriously though, they make you pay to take their garbage? I'll have to take my fill of stuff before they change their policies.

Well, it cost them money to get that "garbage" there in the first place, so they usually try to recoup those costs and then some. I think you're confusing an auto salvage yard with a landfill. Auto salvage yards strip everything that's still in decent condition off the cars and then either compact it or shred it to sell for scrap metal. It's a great place to go if you're looking for headlights and mechanisms like steering linkages and alternators that are often still usable even after accidents.

 

But make no mistake, these places are in it for the money. One man's garbage is another man's treasure, especially if another man is trying to restore his classic 60's muscle car. And brand new airbags sell for upwards of $1500 just for the parts, with a couple hours labor to install.

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"John, let's just agree that you can never be too careful. You have to take some risks in life, but I agree this one is not absolutely necessary. Are you per chance one of those people who is to afraid to cross the street, because they "might" get hit by a car"

 

Nope, I'm someone who works with explosives from time to time: but I'm still alive. Likewise.

I'm the sort of person who doesn't try to make something quite hazardous (like Na) by starting with something even more hazardous (like the azide). I agree there are safer ways of making sodium, but the powder specifically? Do you have any safer ideas for doing that? Please tell me if you do.

It's a bit like wanting to cross the street but choosing to be fired from a cannon, because that way you are in transit for only a short time and are less likely to be hit by a car. Because I want sodium powder, until you can come up with a safer way to make sodium powder, your metaphor is invalid, albeit clever.

 

Good luck finding any sort of validation data for gloves + respirators for this stuff.

Also, you might want to look up the rate of transdermal absorption (if you can find any data for that). Remember that the stuff is in a sealed compartment, so there is no reason you can't take it out and open it up in a glove box, or even under mineral oil. Why would the stuff get on my dermis? Maybe if it exploded? If it exploded, there wouldn't be any more azide, because it exploded.

 

Well, it cost them money to get that "garbage" there in the first place, so they usually try to recoup those costs and then some. I think you're confusing an auto salvage yard with a landfill. Auto salvage yards strip everything that's still in decent condition off the cars and then either compact it or shred it to sell for scrap metal. It's a great place to go if you're looking for headlights and mechanisms like steering linkages and alternators that are often still usable even after accidents.

 

But make no mistake, these places are in it for the money. One man's garbage is another man's treasure, especially if another man is trying to restore his classic 60's muscle car. And brand new airbags sell for upwards of $1500 just for the parts, with a couple hours labor to install.

 

I'm not sure what the place is called, I'm just glad I get free stuff!

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  • 1 month later...

Sodium azide decomposes at 275 degrees Celsius (according to Wikipedia).

Sodium metal melts at around 95-100 degrees celsius (lower than the boiling point of water)

The decomposition reaction is very exothermic.

 

 

So instead of powdered sodium, you would instead get a blob (or a few blobs) of molten sodium. And it will probably spatter due to the expanding nitrogen gases. At such a high temperature, the sodium could catch fire. Commercial airbags uses an electric shock to detonate the azide, but the exotherm of the reaction could be enough to liquefy the sodium formed by larger batches of sodium azide, not to mention that it would be exceptionally dangerous. I also expect sodium powder to be pyrophoric, especially at slightly elevated temperatures. So making sodium powder from the azide without any specialised equipment/inert gas would be improbable, almost impossible.

Edited by weiming1998
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