I don't understand Zero or Negative Numbers - Teach Me the Basics

[Klaplunk]

0 / 2 = Half of 0

Half of 0 / 2 = Quarter of 0

 

.5----------5----------5

...4--------4--------4.

.....3------3------3....

.......2----2----2.......

...........1-1-1...........

5-4-3-2-1-0-1-2-3-4-5

...........1-1-1...........

.......2----2----2........

.....3------3------3.....

...4--------4--------4..

.5----------5----------5

 

I don't understand why '0' is the end. 0 is open to each way, it shouldn't only move forwards "0 1 2 3 4" in this fashion. We created that system, it's not the natural system.

[DJBruce]

0 / 2 = Half of 0

Half of 0 / 2 = Quarter of 0

 

Zero divided by any number other than 0 is 0, end of story.

 

.5----------5----------5

...4--------4--------4.

.....3------3------3....

.......2----2----2.......

...........1-1-1...........

5-4-3-2-1-0-1-2-3-4-5

...........1-1-1...........

.......2----2----2........

.....3------3------3.....

...4--------4--------4..

.5----------5----------5

 

I have no idea what this little diagram is supposed to represent.

 

I don't understand why '0' is the end. 0 is open to each way, it shouldn't only move forwards "0 1 2 3 4" in this fashion. We created that system, it's not the natural system.

 

Who ever said zero was the end of anything. If you consider the set of real numbers the {-6,-5.-e, -1, 0, 1, 2...}.

[Klaplunk]

You also believe - 1 x - 1 = 1

 

Let's use a timescale.

 

-5 -4 -3 -2 -1 0 1 2 3 4 5

 

-1 x -1 = -1

1 x 1 = 1

 

Why would we jump from the left side to the right side?

[insane_alien]

i suppose you also believe double negatives in english still reult in negatives too right?

[DJBruce]

You also believe - 1 x - 1 = 1

 

Why would we jump from the left side to the right side?

 

Yes, yes I do believe a negative times a negative yields a positive. You say that say if it is a bad thing, but it is the generally accepted convention.

 

If you wish to know why this is here.

 

However, that is completely outside the point of this thread, and the only reason you brought it up was to use it as an ad hom.

[Klaplunk]

Are we talking mathmatics of life or educated nonsensemath?

It's not outside of the thread at all. I said dividing 0 by 2 would equal half of 0. That's my opinion, you disagreed; I then began building on my point.

Edited July 25, 2010 by Klaplunk

[DJBruce]

Are we talking mathmatics of life or educated nonsensemath?

It's not outside of the thread at all. I said dividing 0 by 2 would equal half of 0. That's my opinion, you disagreed; I then began building on my point.

 

Mathematics is mathematics regardless of the context. Just like 0 divided by anything other than zero is 0 regardless of the name it is given.

[Cap'n Refsmmat]

It's not outside of the thread at all. I said dividing 0 by 2 would equal half of 0. That's my opinion, you disagreed; I then began building on my point.

 

And what decimal value does "half of 0" have?

[Klaynos]

I have no sausages, I give half of these to you, how many do you have? (I'll give you a clue, you don't have any)

[Klaplunk]

0 = duality

 

 

This line.

______________________________________________

= 0

 

<-------------------------------------------------------------->

 

That line, is a duality.

 

Divide that line by 2 and you get:

 

______________________ ______________________

2 Dualities.

 

 

 

 

1 / 2 =? 0.5

 

_____________________________________________ 1

_____________________ 0.5

 

2 / 2 = ? 1

 

______________________________________________ 2

_____________________ 1

[insane_alien]

and how xactly is 0 a duality?

 

saying it is does not make it so

[Klaplunk]

If I had -1 oranges, and I multiplied that by -1 oranges, I wouldn't suddenly gain an orange.

 

This is for the other thread, just delete this otherwise it's going to be another thread resulting in the same debate.

[insane_alien]

sweet bejebus have you not read the links posted that offer explicit mathematical proofs that -1 squared is 1?

 

if its anything else then lots of other things break and you can let any number equal any other number.

 

you never answered the duality question.

[Klaynos]

The line cannot be 0, 0 is nothing, there is no line if the line is 0.

[Klaplunk]

Look, I have no opinion of this - to me the mathmatics we're educated are wrong. I'm working on proving that; so no I don't agree with it. I know why it does equate 1, I know the academic rules, yes. I don't agree with them.

[Klaynos]

Look, I have no opinion of this - to me the mathmatics we're educated are wrong. I'm working on proving that; so no I don't agree with it. I know why it does equate 1, I know the academic rules, yes. I don't agree with them.

 

That's akin to saying "I don't agree with the rules of the English language I'm going to use my own and expect everyone to still understand me" it's just crazy. Or to put it another way. Iytz'asr cj uts. Which is the same sentence but using my own rules of English...

[pioneer]

I have a atom with zero charge. From this zero charge, I will give you an electron and a cation. I made two things out of zero. Out of nothing, something can appear.

 

To make those two things appear, I needed to create another math concept called negative. Since it came from nothing, it has to have some very special properties. I have negative one apples on the table, so help yourself. This makes even less sense than no apple on the table, since no apples can occur in reality (in the winter). If I eat that negative apple, does it take away calories and vitamins? Does it also dehydrate me? If I take the square root of this negative apple, it now gets imaginary, as though the negative apple was not already imaginary enough.

 

Division can also allow us to escape reality. If we have 2 apples and divide by 1/2 we get 4 apples.. Could someone demonstrate this in reality. What we do is take the two apples and cut both of them half way through and 2 more apples appear. We don't actually split them. Why bother farming? This illogic allows math art, where the math artist can create a math image, that is not part of physical reality but it may look like it does.

 

Math is based on logic and follows the principles of logic. Instead of math symbols, say we used word logic and use words to follow the principles of logic. On that table is nothing. I will now make a negative and positive apple. We will throw away the real apple and keep the negative one. Since negative apples have all the opposite properties of a normal apple, if you eat it, it will have the opposite impact. If you eat a bushel of negative apples one can lose weight. My logic is quite sound, but it escapes reality, since one of the premises for my logic is even not part of reality. But if you cut me slack, and we all agree this premise is OK, then it has to be real? So we will allow my negative apple premise. Let us continue our logic. Anyone wishing to start a negative apple food business for losing weight can start with one negative apple, cut it half the way through to make two; repeat again and again.

[Klaplunk]

What are you trying to achieve by telling me this? I understand the 'rules', I don't agree with them. Let's leave this now. 'Word World' is not 'Real World' it's just a way of toying with peoples emotions and controlling the masses.

[insane_alien]

well, why don't you agree with the rules of mathematics then?

 

or more specifically, why don't you agree that a negative times a negative is a positive?

 

is it because it's counter-intuitive to you?

[Sayonara]

I have a atom with zero charge. From this zero charge, I will give you an electron and a cation. I made two things out of zero. Out of nothing, something can appear.

Correction, you haven't created a cation and an electron from nothing, nor have you successfully multiplied or divided zero, or multiplied or divided by zero. You have simply observed that when they are combined into an atom their charges sum to zero.

 

To make those two things appear, I needed to create another math concept called negative. Since it came from nothing, it has to have some very special properties. I have negative one apples on the table, so help yourself. This makes even less sense than no apple on the table, since no apples can occur in reality (in the winter). If I eat that negative apple, does it take away calories and vitamins? Does it also dehydrate me?

Having negative one apples could be owing X apples to somebody when you only have (X-1) apples. You can't eat a negative apple, but you can not eat an apple that you would have done were it in your possession. So you could in fact say that having a negative apple deducts the relevant calories and vitamins from your potential intake.

 

If I take the square root of this negative apple, it now gets imaginary, as though the negative apple was not already imaginary enough.

A negative apple is not imaginary though; it's just a cumbersome way of describing a debt.

 

Division can also allow us to escape reality. If we have 2 apples and divide by 1/2 we get 4 apples.. Could someone demonstrate this in reality.

Division is a means of scaling a quantity. That's all. Funnily enough, the Wikipedia entry on division uses apples as an example.

Dividing by a half is the same as multiplying by two, or doubling the quantity. It's not difficult to understand unless someone like you comes along and tries to describe it in way that makes it look like occult magic.

 

What we do is take the two apples and cut both of them half way through and 2 more apples appear. We don't actually split them. Why bother farming? This illogic allows math art, where the math artist can create a math image, that is not part of physical reality but it may look like it does.

No, what you do is scale up your quantity by 2. You do this by acquiring more apples. Multiplication is a process of iterative addition.

 

What are you trying to achieve by telling me this? I understand the 'rules', I don't agree with them. Let's leave this now. 'Word World' is not 'Real World' it's just a way of toying with peoples emotions and controlling the masses.

As if this wasn't enough of a mess, Klaplunk, Pioneer is one of those people who posts gibberish in threads with no intention of addressing the discussion that is already in progress. I suggest you ignore him as he will just confuse matters further.

[Klaplunk]

well, why don't you agree with the rules of mathematics then?

 

or more specifically, why don't you agree that a negative times a negative is a positive?

 

is it because it's counter-intuitive to you?

 

I have a big problem with this way of life; however, I'm fine with living it, and I'm accustomed to it - I can't really do much about it. I don't believe we should be living in this way, and I believe that everything we're educated with is to essentially make us stupid/less intelligent. It all fits together perfect, you read one book, it agrees with another. You have -1 apples in your hand, you multiply it by itself, you gain an apple, whatever you want to believe.

 

I personally think word is a virus - can you delete a word from memory? Do you often learn a new word and suddenly you start hearing it everywhere? Do you not think mass media has an effect on what words are in the flow of life? Everything we're typing is not nessisary, it's used to essentially toy with out emotions.

 

You're in the streets, someone falls over, you laugh.

You're sitting in your house, you come across a funny thread, you laugh.

[Mr Skeptic]

No no no, an negative apple times a negative apple is an apple squared. Whatever that means, but regardless it's the same as a positive apple times a positive apple. Are you upset because you can't understand negative numbers? A long time ago mathematicians felt the same way. Negative numbers have real meaning in the real world only when you find an appropriate analogy to them, same as with positive numbers. Fractions for example make no sense if you're talking about people, but make sense when talking about pies. Negative numbers make sense if you compare them to borrowing, for example, or in physics where it can mean "in the opposite direction". Numbers of any kind have nothing to do with the real world, be they positive negative or imaginary. We just use them as analogies, some more easily than others.

 

As for words, we use them both for thinking and for communicating. Without words we'd be barbarians (actually, worse than barbarians). Also, without words you wouldn't be annoying.

[Klaplunk]

You closed that other thread because you know it was true, and you couldn't prove it wrong. If it can't be proved right, but everything said is true, and can't be proved wrong, then it's true.

 

You wouldn't gain an apple from a negative apple.

 

Dark and Light

 

 

D5 D4 D3 D2 D1 0 L1 L2 L3 L4 L5

 

D1 x D1 = L1?

Edited July 25, 2010 by Klaplunk

[Klaynos]

Dark is a 0, not a -1... (assuming intensity here, but it doesn't really matter)

[Mr Skeptic]

I didn't close your thread, and threads of that sort are closed because they were already closed long ago (rather the mind of the poster was already closed so it just makes sense to close the thread too).

 

And you have yet to tell me how to get an apple squared from an apple, if you are going to complain that others cannot give you an apple squared from a negative apple.