NavajoEverclear Posted July 29, 2004 Share Posted July 29, 2004 This is derived from an idea that started on a thread on immortality. Look it up if you care how it relates. Anyway, the idea is this, a machine (small device of some type) hooks onto the base of the brainstem- right where all the nerves root (they do all go back to one place right?) to the brain. This device is remote controlled by a computer type thing, or another human with a corresponding device--- like switching bodies,, whatever, thats not the important part. The question is, say this device was activated early in the life of the person, inserted into the womb if possible. The brain of this person is not dead, but it is cut off from actual input. If it was not fed simulated input (like the Matrix, except of coarse that the body is being used for something other than a battery) how would it develop, and if given the opportunity at some point in it's life, would it ever be capable of taking control of the body? What kind of dreams and experiences would it have without interaction with the real world? Would it have wakeful brainwaves, and sleeping waves, alternating acording to circadian rythm? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MolecularMan14 Posted July 29, 2004 Share Posted July 29, 2004 I suppose if you could squeeze every brain function into a small box and then plant it on someones brainstem, well, I really REALLY dont know. Its a good question tho Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
J'Dona Posted July 29, 2004 Share Posted July 29, 2004 If it was cut off from input, wouldn't the person not know when they needed to breathe, or how, and then fall asleep and die from oxygen deprivation? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MolecularMan14 Posted July 29, 2004 Share Posted July 29, 2004 well, you have to remember that this box would control EVERY brain function...so until someone figures out how to program another human, I consider it a "magic box". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
J'Dona Posted July 29, 2004 Share Posted July 29, 2004 Ah, so it controls things like the heart and lungs, so that the person stays alive? Sorry, hadn't read that part. Um... I'm not sure what they'd think. If you think about it, to them they would be the only thing in the universe, so as far as they're concerned they might be God. They just couldn't do anything... or maybe they could; they would have no concept of movement, sight, sound, smell, touch, and so forth, but only thought, so in their own mind they could do whatever they wished through thought, whatever it might be (I've certainly no idea). That's actually a rather interesting philosphical situation. It's either that or they'd go insane. I don't think humans would cope too well cooped up in their mind like that, because of instincts running against it; they'd be trying to do things that they couldn't and they might get confused. Or I'm just not being objective enough. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ydoaPs Posted July 29, 2004 Share Posted July 29, 2004 the body would be extremely weak from lack of use. extreme atrophy exept it wasn't all that developed to begin with. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MolecularMan14 Posted July 29, 2004 Share Posted July 29, 2004 Thats a good point. It is an interesting philosphical situation! If only we could simulate it. Im sure we could find some matrix fanatic who would be happy to try, lol Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
badchad Posted July 29, 2004 Share Posted July 29, 2004 I don't think the brain would develop normally. The brain is dynamic and constantly forming new neural connections, while destroying others "synaptic pruning". I think it would be impossible to simulate real-life experiences, and without them the brain would not develop. It may be able to support basic life functions, but thats about it IMO. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ydoaPs Posted July 29, 2004 Share Posted July 29, 2004 I JUST saw, on the science channel, this guy hooked his brain up to a computer and could control the mouse. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MolecularMan14 Posted July 29, 2004 Share Posted July 29, 2004 was it that one, about the 50 year old, roof builder, who got the stroke, and they hooked him up to a computer, out of his brain stem? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tesseract Posted July 29, 2004 Share Posted July 29, 2004 I JUST saw, on the science channel, this guy hooked his brain up to a computer and could control the mouse. You just saw that now its an old episode.I made a thread about that when i first joined sfn. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ydoaPs Posted July 29, 2004 Share Posted July 29, 2004 probly. they are always showin old crap Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tesseract Posted July 29, 2004 Share Posted July 29, 2004 probly. they are always showin old crap Probably by now theyre already making home versions. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ydoaPs Posted July 29, 2004 Share Posted July 29, 2004 y wouldn't it make new connections if it was cut off from the body? the "magic box" could input fake senses (like a "matrix" if u will) and then it should develop normally. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
badchad Posted July 29, 2004 Share Posted July 29, 2004 y wouldn't it make new connections if it was cut off from the body? the "magic box" could input fake senses (like a "matrix" if u will) and then it should develop normally. Right, I just assumed that "real life" couldn't be accurately simulated. Everyone's life is so different it would be near impossible to replicate it IMO. Of course, then again, we're talking about hooking a device into the brainstem "matrix style" so I guess it's possible... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NavajoEverclear Posted July 30, 2004 Author Share Posted July 30, 2004 well, you have to remember that this box would control EVERY brain function...so until someone figures out how to program another human, I consider it a "magic box". yes, it would do everything the normal brain would, it could even be controlled by another brain, but like i said thats not the important part.----- True it would be near impossible to make such a device. But perhaps there would be a way you wouldn't neccisarily need to make it. Make the components that make it, but not understand how it works (cause such would be possible). What i mean is maybe a machine could originally just monitor all the output from the brainstem, until it adapts to figure out how to take over all those functions. The machine would figure out how to program itself, all we'd have to program is its capibility to understand the electrical impulse somehow. Mold it's own port, than you hook it up the the remote controlling source.---- if that makes sense Ah, so it controls things like the heart and lungs, so that the person stays alive? Sorry, hadn't read that part. Um... I'm not sure what they'd think. If you think about it, to them they would be the only thing in the universe, so as far as they're concerned they might be God. They just couldn't do anything... or maybe they could; they would have no concept of movement, sight, sound, smell, touch, and so forth, but only thought, so in their own mind they could do whatever they wished through thought, whatever it might be (I've certainly no idea). That's actually a rather interesting philosphical situation. It's either that or they'd go insane. I don't think humans would cope too well cooped up in their mind like that, because of instincts running against it; they'd be trying to do things that they couldn't and they might get confused. Or I'm just not being objective enough. That's the essense of the question, would the brain just go through random meaningless electrical flows, or would it create it's own reality? I think theres enough evolutionary instinctive wiring that it would so to say, run on the memories of its ancestors. I think it would have all the senses, because its all just a matter of the final stimulation in the brain. You have senses when you dream, and thats not real. Since the final destination of all physical function is the brain, i think it would have a sense of its own body. You've heard of people who lose limbs and then have phantom itches and such? sensations that come from where there is no longer any physical base. The brain might have a phantom body. And to since it would be so lonely to have no social interaction, the brain would likely split into several personalities. (tho thats completely my own guess). I don't know WHAT detail of sensual simulations the brain would create. Depends on how much is evolutionarily engrained. y wouldn't it make new connections if it was cut off from the body? the "magic box" could input fake senses (like a "matrix" if u will) and then it should develop normally. it would make new connections, but they'd probably be strange nueral relationships and patterns we have no way to comprehend. . . . . well i guess thats the opposite point i've just been writing about. I cant decide if theres enough in common with the fact that we all have similar brains, or the fact that i have no idea how a cut off brain would develop. Simulated input is an option, but that was the point of the question, what would the brain do without any simulation? What kind of reality would it create for itself? What kind of emotions would it feel? What kind of skills could it develop? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
badchad Posted July 30, 2004 Share Posted July 30, 2004 Simulated input is an option, but that was the point of the question, what would the brain do without any simulation? What kind of reality would it create for itself? What kind of emotions would it feel? What kind of skills could it develop? By stimulating particular areas of the brain you could probably trigger some type of emotion, happiness, sadness, etc. Would we even know of "reality" if we hadn't experienced it? Could a person spontaneously create a "reality" if they had never been exposed to it?. How would the concept of yourself, or another person even be initiated if you weren't exposed to anyone else? I think that person would just lay there, in a vegetative state. You might be able to make them "happy", but it would be a somewhat non specific state. If you didn't have a simulated reality, who would you learn skills from? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MolecularMan14 Posted August 5, 2004 Share Posted August 5, 2004 But once again...first we must fully understand what EVERY function of the brain is, before we can control it; program it. plus how to stimulate it with the right force, to where the subject doesn't over-emphasise that particular motion, or emotion Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MolecularMan14 Posted August 12, 2004 Share Posted August 12, 2004 so how would one begin to do something like that? the basic programming of the human? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nevermore Posted September 20, 2004 Share Posted September 20, 2004 I know I have a bad reputation on this network, for not knowing what I'm talking about, but please hear me out. I have a second hand experiance with the brain being cut off from the real world. Allow me to explain; My grandmother is blind, has almost no sense of taste/smell, can barley walk on her own, and over-all, her brain doesn't have much to do. She also has delusions, hallucinations, and elaborate imaginary friends. These provide her brain with somthing to process. When we visit her, she rarly comes out of her delusions, IMO for the reason that in the real world, her brain has nothing to do, there is almost no info coming in from her senserory organs. So, hooked up to NavajoEverclear's box, I think the brain would most likely create it's own reality. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AzurePhoenix Posted September 20, 2004 Share Posted September 20, 2004 Sure, that's how it works with someone who went blind, but how could a brain, cut off from post birth, develop such a reality without any input with which to base a reality? Without any sensory input whatsoever, nil, nada, nothin', wouldn't it be more likely that the brain would fail to develop at all, and eventually atrophy? Humans demand input to develope at all. The more input, the better developed the kid (or so it is theorized.) All of our memory is based on past experience of input, and all of our thoughts are born of memory to most of its extent. Locked away within itself, I have no doubt the undeveloped human mind would wither to the point that if eventually released, let's say thirty years later, there wouldn't be anything to show for it, because the conscious entity of the body would have died long before. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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