Where does consciousness come from?

[farid_slc]

Hi everybody, my name is Farid and I am new to this forum because of this question I have.

 

My question is, where does consciousness come from when we are all made from atom, which seems to be unconscious? This seems like putting piece of cloth together and getting a conscious being, is it possible?

 

I might get answers such as the brain or even heart, but are they too not made of atoms?

 

 

Thank you.

[Mokele]

It's an "emergent property", a property that's only expressed in a system due to interactions of the parts of the system, rather than a property of the parts themselves.

 

Think of a point in 3-D space. It has only one property, location. But with two points, you can have 'distance'. With 3, you can have 'area'. With four, 'volume'. All of those properties (distance, area, volume) do not exist in the points themselves, but rather as a property of their interactions as a system.

 

On a more neurobiological level, we can at the least localize it as far the a cerebrum. Destruction of the cerebrum leaves a person nothing but a vegetable, even if everything else is intact, while destruction or replacement of other body parts either has no effect or is simply instantly fatal.

 

Mokele

[farid_slc]

Thank you for replying first of all.

 

So in summary, you are saying that a bunch of unconscious (perhaps) atoms combine, interact and do some actions and we have the five senses, we feel aware and we have a sense of self? I am sorry to say, but I do not understand how that can come about. I understand the properties that can come about with interactions, but getting consciousness?

 

Thank you though for the reply

[ydoaPs]

Thank you for replying first of all.

 

So in summary, you are saying that a bunch of unconscious (perhaps) atoms combine, interact and do some actions and we have the five senses, we feel aware and we have a sense of self? I am sorry to say, but I do not understand how that can come about. I understand the properties that can come about with interactions, but getting consciousness?

 

Thank you though for the reply

Is water wet? How about a single water molecule? How about individual hydrogen and oxygen atoms? How about quarks?

[YT2095]

the same phenomenon can happen with machines, called "emergent behavior", I think what you`re failing to appreciate is the Complexity of the organic parts that make up these components as evidenced by your reference to Atoms (a whole several orders of Magnitude different).

 

in effect these Parts, are somewhat self autonomous and made to interact with other parts that are similar, as a consequence a phenomenon Emerges called consciousness.

[farid_slc]

hi, yt2095, thank you for replying.

 

As for the water being wet. Three main states of atoms are gas, liquid and solid, you know that right? Anyways, these states are not that hard to comprehend, they are just movements of atoms. They dont move much, they might be solid, move a little more and they might be liquid or wet and if they move more, they might be gas. So you see, I do not think that this should even be compared with consciousness. The way you put it is that atoms combine and interact and counter-inituitively, something called consciousness appears even though I do not see how that can ever happen. Does it just appear out of nowhere?

 

Thank you.

[bascule]

So in summary, you are saying that a bunch of unconscious (perhaps) atoms combine, interact and do some actions and we have the five senses, we feel aware and we have a sense of self? I am sorry to say, but I do not understand how that can come about. I understand the properties that can come about with interactions, but getting consciousness?

 

You're not alone, and there are other philosophies of mind which would agree. Mokele is describing the foremost scientific school of thought, which can be described as emergent materialism or functionalism depending on what philosophical slant you wish to take.

 

I would say what differentiates consciousness from other everyday processes is that consciousness operates via a feedback loop between perception and cognition. What we perceive is influenced by what we're thinking about, and what we're thinking about is influenced by what we perceive. In a biological sense this is likely manifested in the form of cortico-thalamo-cortical loops.

[YT2095]

hi, yt2095, thank you for replying.

 

As for the water being wet. Three main states of atoms are gas, liquid and solid, you know that right? Anyways, these states are not that hard to comprehend, they are just movements of atoms. They dont move much, they might be solid, move a little more and they might be liquid or wet and if they move more, they might be gas. So you see, I do not think that this should even be compared with consciousness. The way you put it is that atoms combine and interact and counter-inituitively, something called consciousness appears even though I do not see how that can ever happen. Does it just appear out of nowhere?

 

Thank you.

 

HUH???

 

my point about Atoms was simply that if you Had to mention them at all, You really do NOT understand the basics.

it, at this level has little to Nothing to do with "Atoms".

Emergent Behavior/Propert(y(ies)) are as a result of the Mechanism involved, in this case Brain parts.

[Sisyphus]

You're almost certainly not going to get an answer you find satisfying, because it's just far too complicated to be intuitive. The best you can do is satisfy yourself that "you don't see how it could happen" is not an argument that it doesn't. The whole universe is made up of a handful of different fundamental particles and forces. You could understand what these are and how they interact on a basic level and still not be able to predict any of the macro-scale structures and behaviors we see every day. Basically, everything we experience is a complex emergent property. Life, and by extension consciousness, is just an extremely complex emergent property among other complex emergent properties. Of course you "don't see how it could happen." But we're working on it...

[pioneer]

In terms of the long term storage of fixed memory, the human brain is not a good design. In other words, although the brain can store fixed data, the amount of possible data storage is extremely large, yet our reliable fixed memory is only a tiny fraction. For example, we can read a book and see all the words. Once done very few can recite it verbatim. We can summarize it and add our interpretation. A year later, even more is gone. I am not saying we don't remember, but we forget more than we remember. As time goes on, we also see the same things in a different ways.

 

What this brings to the picture for consciousness, is the changing memory grid within the brain, is conducive to conscious awareness. One is more aware of changes in a routine that when acting via a fixed routine. If you get up in the morning, you can run on radar and go through the motions of getting ready, even while half asleep or half conscious. If someone moves your toothbrush and hides the cereal, the changes wake you up to action because of the adaption needed. One has to crank up consciousness and become more aware to adapt.

 

Routine is easier to deal with, like a robot. Consciousness is heightened when we have to alter the routine of fixed memory and face the unexpected. When a person jumps out of a plane, they jump into the unknown. They feel heightened awareness.

 

If the brain was only a hard drive with perfect data storage and reproduction it could run simple routines without much need for consciousness. But by adding plenty of data errors and evolving data organization, the robot is stumped. The assemble line gets bogged down and potential increases. Once it gets high enough consciousness appears.

[YT2095]

the phrase "running on auto-pilot" is quite apt.

[Mr Skeptic]

My question is, where does consciousness come from when we are all made from atom, which seems to be unconscious? This seems like putting piece of cloth together and getting a conscious being, is it possible?

 

That is flawed reasoning. How is an elephant "big", when it is made of atoms which are not "big"? How is chlorophyll "green", when it is made of atoms that are not "green"? How can a woman be "attractive", when she is made of atoms that are not "attractive"?

 

Some properties are not due to the components of something, but because of how they are arranged. It doesn't help that the word "conscious" doesn't even have a specific meaning.

Edited January 3, 2009 by Mr Skeptic

[Sayonara]

Off-topic posts about computer consciousness moved to a new thread:

Can a computer be "conscious"?

 

In terms of the long term storage of fixed memory, the human brain is not a good design. In other words, although the brain can store fixed data, the amount of possible data storage is extremely large, yet our reliable fixed memory is only a tiny fraction. For example, we can read a book and see all the words. Once done very few can recite it verbatim. We can summarize it and add our interpretation. A year later, even more is gone. I am not saying we don't remember, but we forget more than we remember. As time goes on, we also see the same things in a different ways.

There is a difference between forgetting and "not recalling".

 

One of the problems with assessing memory reliability is that it is difficult to establish the difference between the effects of an item not being learned, and the effects of an obstacle to an item being recalled.

 

What this brings to the picture for consciousness, is the changing memory grid within the brain, is conducive to conscious awareness...

Word salad.

 

Once again, you don't appear to have any interest in addressing the OP. Reported for spamming infraction.

[bascule]

My question is, where does consciousness come from when we are all made from atom, which seems to be unconscious? This seems like putting piece of cloth together and getting a conscious being, is it possible?

 

What makes some groups of atoms "alive" when others aren't? Is there anything special about "alive" groups of atoms vs. non-"alive" groups of atoms other than their particular configuration? How can atoms which were once "alive" suddenly become "dead"? Again, it depends on changes in the overall configuration of the group.

 

This sort of reasoning applies to any collection of atoms though. What makes some collections of atoms a car? Or a computer? There is a vast inner world to a computer, albeit a different one from consciousness. However while it's ultimately a collection of atoms and electrical signals, nobody reasons about software systems at that level because it would be silly. But still, nobody doubts that underneath the rich inner world of a computer, underneath it's all just atoms and electrical signals.

 

Why is it so surprising that certain configurations of atoms can bring about a vast inner world?