7 hours ago, sethoflagos said:

I wonder if FODMAP sensitivity arises in part due to the typically impoverished diet of Western industrialised nations. Where of course, most of the limited research in the area will have been done, with all the consequent selection bias that implies.

I think that this is a good point and also a reminder that most food studies are association studies with very limited understanding of underlying mechanisms. There are also trials, which are better controlled but are generally also only limited to measurement of clinical endpoints, without mechanistic insights. This issue also extends to our understanding of the role of the gut microbiota in human health.

As such, these types of studies are frequently are associated with limited reproducibility, which, I assume, will amplify if we look at more diverse populations. Moreover, extrapolation of such data will more likely than not result in predictions that do not turn out to be true.

52 minutes ago, CharonY said:

I think that this is a good point and also a reminder that most food studies are association studies with very limited understanding of underlying mechanisms. There are also trials, which are better controlled but are generally also only limited to measurement of clinical endpoints, without mechanistic insights. This issue also extends to our understanding of the role of the gut microbiota in human health.

As such, these types of studies are frequently are associated with limited reproducibility, which, I assume, will amplify if we look at more diverse populations. Moreover, extrapolation of such data will more likely than not result in predictions that do not turn out to be true.

Yeah, there is a lot of slop, when you have five types of RS, and then also half a dozen types of soluble fiber and insoluble fiber all interacting with the gut colony in various ways. I recently was aware of some friends who were swearing off FODMAPs, as if that was a longterm diet, and I had to warn them that a lot of FODMAP foods are really good for you and you curtail them only temporarily (working with a physician ) to get relief from serious IBS symptoms. After that, the strategy is to work with probiotics and prebiotics and mechanical roughage and vitamins, etc to normalize your intestinal colony and redevelop a tolerance for FODMAPs. I used to work with a food chemist and nutritionist who related an experience treating gut problems in an Alaskan population and finding that vitamin D supplements wrought improvements in people who weren't eating fatty fishes and so were especially deficient (Alaska not being big on sunshine) in a vitamin now linked to a healthy gut microbiome.

That's just one example of another component in the complexity of gut health and where they're only beginning to understand the molecular signaling pathways with vitamin D, the gut barrier, microbiota, and the development of IBD. (Nigerians: you probably have less need to worry about vitamin D...)

17 minutes ago, TheVat said:

(Nigerians: you probably have less need to worry about vitamin D...)

It's an issue in diaspora populations, particularly northern Europe where a dark skin reduces solar vitamin D synthesis between three- and five-fold compared to the white population.

6 minutes ago, sethoflagos said:

It's an issue in diaspora populations, particularly northern Europe where a dark skin reduces solar vitamin D synthesis between three- and five-fold compared to the white population.

Yes, that can he a big adjustment. In my neighbor state of Minnesota, there's a large Somali diaspora and, aside from the overall climatic shock of being in one of the USA's coldest and snowiest locations, an issue with vitamin D absorption. (Generally, my impression is that the places with forbidding winters are often the most welcoming in the US - perhaps because the winters reinforce the idea that we all depend on each other and general good will in order to survive?)

1 hour ago, TheVat said:

Yes, that can he a big adjustment. In my neighbor state of Minnesota, there's a large Somali diaspora and, aside from the overall climatic shock of being in one of the USA's coldest and snowiest locations, an issue with vitamin D absorption. (Generally, my impression is that the places with forbidding winters are often the most welcoming in the US - perhaps because the winters reinforce the idea that we all depend on each other and general good will in order to survive?)

Btw: I couldn't resist sampling the fermented cucumber this afternoon. Delicious! And quite different to the pickled version.

2 hours ago, TheVat said:

eah, there is a lot of slop, when you have five types of RS

And even that is problematic and at best inconsistent. For example, Type I is characterized by accessibility, i.e. starch to which enzymes cannot get to. Type II otoh is based on origin (e.g. raw starch from plant species), forming resistant granules. Type III are generally spontaneously generated precipitated starches with some some-crystalline structres and then IV are or modified starches.

This classification might make sense in food sciences, but in a microbial context it is pretty much meaningless. Within each of these groups you have different chemical compositions, which will be utilized and processed differently by bacteria, for example.

On 11/18/2025 at 8:41 PM, CharonY said:

Hmm that is odd. Most ferric compounds are somewhere in the spectrum between black and yellow. The only whitish ones I can think of are some form of ferric sulfates as powder (white-yellow) but in solution it turns reddish brown or at least yellow. Does something precipitate at all?

I wonder if it could be another metal...

& @exchemist. Six or seven batches later, the 'mystery green' has only been encountered with one particular Indian brand of cane sugar. I've not been able to duplicate it with either cane jaggery or a local Nigerian brand of 'raw' cane sugar.

Given that much commercial brown sugar is (according to Wikipedia etc.) refined white sugar that has subsequently been further processed, I am unable to discount the use of a synthetic green dye.

Btw - Top Tip. Unless you're particularly fond of significantly bitter undertones, think twice before making ginger beer with jaggery.

1 hour ago, sethoflagos said:

& @exchemist. Six or seven batches later, the 'mystery green' has only been encountered with one particular Indian brand of cane sugar. I've not been able to duplicate it with either cane jaggery or a local Nigerian brand of 'raw' cane sugar.

Given that much commercial brown sugar is (according to Wikipedia etc.) refined white sugar that has subsequently been further processed, I am unable to discount the use of a synthetic green dye.

Btw - Top Tip. Unless you're particularly fond of significantly bitter undertones, think twice before making ginger beer with jaggery.

I confess I had never even heard the term jaggery until now - but I've looked it up.

It is possible that if a dye has been used, the colour may change with pH. I can't remember if we have discussed this, but does the green turn back to brown at high pH?

Or could there be 2 dyes, one red and one green, giving brown at neutral-high pH, but the red one becomes colourless at low pH, leaving just the green? Phenolphthalein does that, for instance. But I realise I may be overthinking this..........

1 minute ago, exchemist said:

I confess I had never even heard the term jaggery until now - but I've looked it up.

It is possible that if a dye has been used, the colour may change with pH. I can't remember if we have discussed this, but does the green turn back to brown at high pH?

Or could there be 2 dyes, one red and one green, giving brown at neutral-high pH, but the red one becomes colourless at low pH, leaving just the green? Phenolphthalein does that, for instance. But I realise I may be overthinking this..........

There was a bit of red apparent in the early sediment of those batches, but it cleared as fermentation progressed. Lemon juice had made it pretty acidic from the start. The green was more persistent, eventually fading a little and settling out in the bottle.

The only high pH test I did was with a dash of Domestos that bleached everything immediately.

1 hour ago, sethoflagos said:

There was a bit of red apparent in the early sediment of those batches, but it cleared as fermentation progressed. Lemon juice had made it pretty acidic from the start. The green was more persistent, eventually fading a little and settling out in the bottle.

The only high pH test I did was with a dash of Domestos that bleached everything immediately.

OK. Pity you didn't have some baking powder to hand.

11 minutes ago, exchemist said:

OK. Pity you didn't have some baking powder to hand.

I did, but forgot. Refresher for us both.

On 11/18/2025 at 1:27 AM, sethoflagos said:

Before baking soda

After baking soda

Bit of a fizz and little else.

After Domestos

Moreorless instant change. No dark precipitate.

On 12/1/2025 at 12:42 AM, StringJunky said:

Re my entrance into milk kefir making. I'm sold. Man, is it sour and fizzy! I think it's still stabilising as it's gone from sour, cheesy, creamy to a cleaner, sour/semi-fizzy taste and mouth feel. Going to try water kefir next. I've got this milk kefir on a daily routine now.

Well, I took the plunge and made my first purchase of a carton of milk in over 25 years!

Fresh milk isn't readily available (lactose intolerance etc) so I plumped for a 1 litre carton of full cream UHT knowing that it may well give me issues.

And it did. Especially since I forgot to look for a tub of live yoghurt to use as a starter. After the prescribed simmering per my dahi recipe, I opted for adding a tablespoon of brine from my fermented cucumbers, and a broken dried red chili.

18 hours later, it still hadn't made a move and my nerve broke: I gave it a quick squirt of concentrated lemon juice and a stir. Soon afterwards, the curds and whey separated and a creamy froth had developed on top. Four hours later, it was in the fridge.

Just tried a teaspoonful and... it's a decent creamy yoghurt. Not particularly acidic. Maybe a slight hint of cucumber, but since it's destined to become cucumber raita anyway that's no big issue.

Thanks for the push!

Good luck. I haven't found any cultures that make milk real digestible for me, and I was warned that most cultured milks still retain some lactose unless they specifically start with a LF milk. I think you need high temps to caramelize lactose, and the commercial ones I've seen go with adding lactase enzyme. If you simmered per a dahi recipe, then maybe you caramelized the lactose pretty well. And maybe also got some Maillard reaction as well, if there was browning at all.

I've settled with a skyr that's made from oats, or sometimes coconut and yellow pea protein. IIRC, authentic skyr differs from yoghurts by adding a yeast species during the low temperature part of the process. It also uses the common bacteria like S. thermophilus, L. bulgaricus, plus some Icelandic legacy cultures. The stuff I buy doesn't use yeast, probably due to spoilage issues with large scale commercial production and shelf life requirements.

11 hours ago, sethoflagos said:

Just tried a teaspoonful and... it's a decent creamy yoghurt. Not particularly acidic. Maybe a slight hint of cucumber,

Hint of cucumber sounds pretty good.

54 minutes ago, TheVat said:

Good luck. I haven't found any cultures that make milk real digestible for me, and I was warned that most cultured milks still retain some lactose unless they specifically start with a LF milk. I think you need high temps to caramelize lactose, and the commercial ones I've seen go with adding lactase enzyme. If you simmered per a dahi recipe, then maybe you caramelized the lactose pretty well. And maybe also got some Maillard reaction as well, if there was browning at all.

I've settled with a skyr that's made from oats, or sometimes coconut and yellow pea protein. IIRC, authentic skyr differs from yoghurts by adding a yeast species during the low temperature part of the process. It also uses the common bacteria like S. thermophilus, L. bulgaricus, plus some Icelandic legacy cultures. The stuff I buy doesn't use yeast, probably due to spoilage issues with large scale commercial production and shelf life requirements.

Hint of cucumber sounds pretty good.

To further reduce lactose, you could look into adding lactase enzyme, which converts it into galactose and glucose,

"Lactose-free yoghurts

The digestive systems of some people partly or completely lack the lactase enzyme. As a result, lactose is not broken down by the digestive process into simpler types of sugars. These people can consume only very small volumes of ordinary milk without discomfort (this is described in Chapter 11). They can, however, often consume fermented milk, in which the lactose is already partly broken down by bacterial enzymes during fermentation.

It is also possible to create completely lactose-free fermented milk by adding a lactase enzyme that hydrolyses the lactose into glucose and galactose. Hydrolysis of yoghurt milk can be performed during the fermentation by the addition of lactase to the fermentation tank. Some lactase enzymes are sensitive to low pH. Their activity decreases as fermentation progresses and the pH drops. What type and dosage of lactase enzyme to use therefore depends on how quickly the starter cultures ferment the milk."

https://dairyprocessinghandbook.tetrapak.com/chapter/fermented-milk-products

18 hours ago, StringJunky said:

To further reduce lactose, you could look into adding lactase enzyme, which converts it into galactose and glucose,

Pretty familiar with all that, but (as your industry handbook makes clear, and thanks for posting that) there would be some technical expertise involved there - possibly beyond a lazy man (me) in a home kitchen. As I said, there are commercial brands that take that extra step, but haven't seen them on the shelves hereabouts.

18 hours ago, StringJunky said:

These people can consume only very small volumes of ordinary milk without discomfort (this is described in Chapter 11).

Let me provide a summary of Chapter 11: Fart. Fart again. Keep farting. DO NOT sit down (this will trap the farts and pain will ensue).

It is my pleasure to close out the year with this public service message.

1 hour ago, TheVat said:

Pretty familiar with all that, but (as your industry handbook makes clear, and thanks for posting that) there would be some technical expertise involved there - possibly beyond a lazy man (me) in a home kitchen. As I said, there are commercial brands that take that extra step, but haven't seen them on the shelves hereabouts.

Let me provide a summary of Chapter 11: Fart. Fart again. Keep farting. DO NOT sit down (this will trap the farts and pain will ensue).

It is my pleasure to close out the year with this public service message.

Doesn't that mean your gut pals are having a party? It's a gas, Man.

19 hours ago, TheVat said:

Let me provide a summary of Chapter 11: Fart. Fart again. Keep farting. DO NOT sit down (this will trap the farts and pain will ensue).

It is my pleasure to close out the year with this public service message.

Alas, your warning went unheeded in Abuja. I'd a small onion, couple of tomatoes and radishes, and a bit of fresh coriander leftover in the fridge and, with some gherkins, fermented jalapenos, and ground cumin I made a soupbowlful of mixed veg raita that was supposed to last me all week. Chilled, it was very moreish and I scoffed the lot in one sitting.

A subsequent explosive start to the new year left me ruminating on the thought that aside from the occasional cherished cheesy treat, I've not consumed dairy in any quantity for decades...

... and wondering how many people start drawing their pension before they're weaned?