Just now, swansont said:

You were asked to start with the math

Whilst a couldn't agree more that we need some maths, you can't have maths until there is something to calculate.

And until the descriptions stop changing and make some sense there can be nothing to calculate.

Just now, OlegMarchenkov said:

Microphotons pass through them.

You said that the black dots are microparticles and that a bunch of these make up a photon.

Just now, OlegMarchenkov said:

The particles move in a specific formation (see the Figure). A particle with momentum pushes the next particle in the line and bounces back to its previous position after transferring momentum. The two highlighted lines (two momentum transfers) contain disturbed particles. We will call these formations photons.

In you picture it seems to take different numbers of microparticles to make up one photon.

Further the photons appear to be sevaral times larger than a microparticle.

So how can a photon 'pass though' a microparticle ?

The whole setup is making ever less sense to me.

4 hours ago, OlegMarchenkov said:

Particles are the fundamental building blocks. It seems reasonable to fill all space with moving particles and see what happens next.

I'm out.

3 hours ago, swansont said:

You were asked to start with the math, and haven’t posted it. Is there any?

Not much math really (plenty of tests though). Actually, I was hoping you could give me a nudge in the right direction with math. It is certainly possible to derive any constant and formula with this. But so far I have only derived relativistic formulas, the Schrodinger equation and some other well-known expressions (not exactly derived, more like proved their applicability to this model).

3 hours ago, swansont said:

Is this a spatial dimension? There are very good reasons why we think there are only three “macroscopic” ones - the 1/r^2 behavior of things from a point source, e.g. light intensity or the strength of gravity

The fourth dimension is a spatial dimension. The thing is, light propagates only in three dimensions of our space (it does not spread in all four dimensions). Gravitational interactions rely on light, as I will show later.

3 hours ago, studiot said:

You said that the black dots are microparticles and that a bunch of these make up a photon.

I did not mean that microparticles make up a photon. Photon is a propagating interaction, ie propagating momentum.

3 hours ago, studiot said:

So how can a photon 'pass though' a microparticle ?

The same way momentum can pass through a microparticle

Edited July 3Jul 3 by OlegMarchenkov

Just now, OlegMarchenkov said:

Not microparticles make up a photon.

Why do you contradict me?

I quoted from where you said exactly what I said, not the opposite.

If you meant something different, please make the necessary amendments.

9 minutes ago, studiot said:

Why do you contradict me?

I clarified what I've written. I'm a bit confused. What is the problem?

Just now, OlegMarchenkov said:

I clarified what I've written. I'm a bit confused. What is the problem?

Someone has changed what you wrote after I posted this quote and the timings on the posts are not wotking properly.

Just now, studiot said:

43 minutes ago, OlegMarchenkov said:

The particles move in a specific formation (see the Figure). A particle with momentum pushes the next particle in the line and bounces back to its previous position after transferring momentum. The two highlighted lines (two momentum transfers) contain disturbed particles. We will call these formations photons.

All I want to say is that a photon is a formation of microparticles, ie compressed and rarefied propagating regions. Microparticles do not propagate. Momentum propagates through these microparticles (one microparticle pushes the next and so on).

36 minutes ago, OlegMarchenkov said:

All I want to say is that a photon is a formation of microparticles, ie compressed and rarefied propagating regions. Microparticles do not propagate. Momentum propagates through these microparticles (one microparticle pushes the next and so on).

Sounds a bit like a backdoor way to bring back the luminiferous aether.

2 hours ago, OlegMarchenkov said:

Not much math really (plenty of tests though). Actually, I was hoping you could give me a nudge in the right direction with math. It is certainly possible to derive any constant and formula with this. But so far I have only derived relativistic formulas, the Schrodinger equation and some other well-known expressions (not exactly derived, more like proved their applicability to this model).

Without math, how do you make specific predictions? Lots of models of e.g. gravity would say it’s attractive. That it varies inversely with distance. But 1/r, 1/r^2, or some fractional power? All have different implications. You need math to weed out the incorrect ones.

2 hours ago, OlegMarchenkov said:

The fourth dimension is a spatial dimension. The thing is, light propagates only in three dimensions of our space (it does not spread in all four dimensions). Gravitational interactions rely on light, as I will show later.

How does light know to restrict itself to three dimensions? What’s special about the fourth one?

2 hours ago, OlegMarchenkov said:

The same way momentum can pass through a microparticle

Momentum is a property, not a substance.

Which brings me back to my question

2 hours ago, OlegMarchenkov said:

Quote

Why are these particle moving?

Microphotons pass through them.

But then we have

Just now, OlegMarchenkov said:

All I want to say is that a photon is a formation of microparticles, ie compressed and rarefied propagating regions. Microparticles do not propagate. Momentum propagates through these microparticles (one microparticle pushes the next and so on).

Which strikes me as a circular argument

So why are the photons 'passing therough them' ?

Because momentum passes through them ?

Just now, TheVat said:

Sounds a bit like a backdoor way to bring back the luminiferous aether.

Nothing backdoor about it.

@OlegMarchenkov

The ideas of momentum flux and particle flux is perfectly reasonable and conventional if handled correctly.

Such models appear in the subjects 'continuum mechanics' and 'transport phenomena' which have very wide application in science and technology

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Transport_phenomena

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Continuum_mechanics

I suggest you need to get your concepts lined up correctly to make anything of your model.

They are useful techniques, but certainly do not amount to a theory of everything.

4 hours ago, OlegMarchenkov said:

All I want to say is that a photon is a formation of microparticles, ie compressed and rarefied propagating regions. Microparticles do not propagate. Momentum propagates through these microparticles (one microparticle pushes the next and so on).

How can you have compressed and rarified regions in a completely filled space?

You did Hardwork.
maybe my theory which is in development phase can tell u something more gravity.V1 of theory is already published but it doesnt deeply explain things and have gaps in explaining,which will be fixed in V2.I would appreciate if you take a look.I would clarify any problem if you have or any doubt.i have solved all current problems pointed by seniors.

9 hours ago, swansont said:

Without math, how do you make specific predictions? Lots of models of e.g. gravity would say it’s attractive. That it varies inversely with distance. But 1/r, 1/r^2, or some fractional power? All have different implications. You need math to weed out the incorrect ones.

I derived that gravity varies 1/r^2. Once we there, I would be able to show you the derivation. It is quite simple.

9 hours ago, swansont said:

How does light know to restrict itself to three dimensions? What’s special about the fourth one?

If we take two dimensions from our space (any plane in our view) and add to them the fourth dimension instead of the third, we will see something similar to this Figure:

The oscillating trajectories are photon paths. I don't want to go too far now, let us just say microparticles are pressed to the central plane, ie central line in the Figure. The density gradually increases closer to the plane. Photons are forced to oscillate along the plane (along 3D space in our 4D universe), as in a waveguide with a gradual distribution of refractive index. The fourth dimension is vertical in the Figure, it is quite special as we see.

9 hours ago, swansont said:

Momentum is a property, not a substance.

In this case, the property (momentum) is passed from microparticle to microparticle. I try to explain this as clearly as possible.

8 hours ago, studiot said:

Which strikes me as a circular argument

I think I understood you at last. Microparticles just oscillate around their positions because of the microphotons. But if gravity acts on them, they do move in certain direction.

8 hours ago, studiot said:

So why are the photons 'passing therough them' ?

Because momentum passes through them ?

Yes. Momentum is p=mv (we all know what it is). A photon is a propagating configuration of compressed and rarefied regions.

8 hours ago, studiot said:

I suggest you need to get your concepts lined up correctly to make anything of your model.

I certainly need to learn how to explain it better. I'll look into it.

7 hours ago, swansont said:

How can you have compressed and rarified regions in a completely filled space?

Good question. I was thinking about it yesterday. Apparently, some vacuum exists in the model between microparticles. I don't know why I decided to discard vacuum earlier.

3 hours ago, Dhillon1724X said:

You did Hardwork.
maybe my theory which is in development phase can tell u something more gravity.V1 of theory is already published but it doesnt deeply explain things and have gaps in explaining,which will be fixed in V2.I would appreciate if you take a look.I would clarify any problem if you have or any doubt.i have solved all current problems pointed by seniors.

I'll take a look out of curiosity.

Edited: Damn... You did this at 14? I don't think I'll ever grow up to that.

Edited July 4Jul 4 by OlegMarchenkov

3 hours ago, OlegMarchenkov said:

The oscillating trajectories are photon paths.

Is there any evidence that photons travel such paths? What causes them to change direction?

3 hours ago, OlegMarchenkov said:

I don't want to go too far now, let us just say microparticles are pressed to the central plane, ie central line in the Figure. The density gradually increases closer to the plane. Photons are forced to oscillate along the plane (along 3D space in our 4D universe), as in a waveguide with a gradual distribution of refractive index. The fourth dimension is vertical in the Figure, it is quite special as we see.

Can another photon travel some distance away from the central plane, where the density is different? How does that happen?

I was thinking about it yesterday. Apparently, some vacuum exists in the model between microparticles. I don't know why I decided to discard vacuum earlier.

Really?

Just now, OlegMarchenkov said:

Good question. I was thinking about it yesterday. Apparently, some vacuum exists in the model between microparticles. I don't know why I decided to discard vacuum earlier.

So let's recap.

Underlying all the wrapping you have an idea that has been extensively worked out in mainstream physical science and technology.

I know nothing of your technical background, but you seem to have rolled in some extremely dodgy popsci or science fiction notions into that wrapping which devalues what you are trying to achieve and causes you to introduce ad hoc 'cures' as and when you find out something you haven't come across or thought of.

We all do this, some many times over, before an idea is hammered out into something workable. Even then there are often a few unanswered questions left over.

That is why I have tried to point you at connections to minstream, especially to try and save you from 'reinventing the wheel'.

1 hour ago, swansont said:

Is there any evidence that photons travel such paths? What causes them to change direction?

Can another photon travel some distance away from the central plane, where the density is different? How does that happen?

The direction changes due to a gradual change in the refractive index near the central plane.

There is an underlying layer of complexity I don't want to go into right now. Let me start with the basics in the next post because I'm afraid these questions will never end.

1 hour ago, swansont said:

Really?

20 minutes ago, studiot said:

I know nothing of your technical background, but you seem to have rolled in some extremely dodgy popsci or science fiction notions into that wrapping which devalues what you are trying to achieve and causes you to introduce ad hoc 'cures' as and when you find out something you haven't come across or thought of.

Yeah, It looks that way.

I remembered why I discarded the vacuum. It is not needed in the model.

There are small and large microparticles in this broth. When a region is rarefied with large microparticles, it is not necessarily rarefied with small microparticles. Small microparticles still occupy space. Please, excuse me. I can't remember everything. It works with vacuum or without.

59 minutes ago, OlegMarchenkov said:

The direction changes due to a gradual change in the refractive index near the central plane.

What’s the length scale in the diagram? Is it fixed, or wavelength-dependent? If the latter, let’s assume a visible wavelength. 500 nm.

59 minutes ago, OlegMarchenkov said:

There is an underlying layer of complexity I don't want to go into right now. Let me start with the basics in the next post because I'm afraid these questions will never end.

What’s the point of moving on? If the basis of the idea is flawed, how can anything built on it be valid?

18 minutes ago, swansont said:

What’s the length scale in the diagram? Is it fixed, or wavelength-dependent? If the latter, let’s assume a visible wavelength. 500 nm.

It is just an illustration. The scale is wrong.

20 minutes ago, swansont said:

What’s the point of moving on? If the basis of the idea is flawed, how can anything built on it be valid?

I intend to move back to the beginning of the story in the next post. What we discussed so far (dark matter, the central plane, etc) is not the basis. Your questions can be answered, but it'll be easier if we start with the basics.

Edited July 4Jul 4 by OlegMarchenkov

Just now, OlegMarchenkov said:

Yeah, It looks that way.

I remembered why I discarded the vacuum. It is not needed in the model.

There are small and large microparticles in this broth. When a region is rarefied with large microparticles, it is not necessarily rarefied with small microparticles. Small microparticles still occupy space. Please, excuse me. I can't remember everything. It works with vacuum or without.

I am growing tired of only half my posts being replied and especially as the helpful comments are ignored.

I think I might just join the other members driven away by exhaustion, in the bar.

15 hours ago, studiot said:

I am growing tired of only half my posts being replied and especially as the helpful comments are ignored.

Whenever I leave no reply, I agree with you (not always absolutely). Right now, I'm reading your links in an attempt to get my concepts lined up

20 hours ago, swansont said:

Can another photon travel some distance away from the central plane, where the density is different? How does that happen?

Photons align their directions of propagation. In any case, we'll need my next post to make any sense of it.

7 hours ago, OlegMarchenkov said:

Photons align their directions of propagation.

I’m not sure what that’s supposed to mean, or how it answers my question.

7 hours ago, OlegMarchenkov said:

In any case, we'll need my next post to make any sense of it.

You promised answers in your next post in your previous post. Stop stalling.

2. Nature of light

Ok. This post about dark matter was an overview. Now we need to make sense of it and understand the implications of replacing vacuum with microparticles.

Microparticles continuously move around their positions, transferring momentum to each other. They move in a specific formation (Figure 1). A microparticle with momentum pushes the next microparticle in the line and bounces back to its previous position after transferring momentum. The two highlighted lines (two momentum transfers) contain disturbed microparticles. We will call these formations microphotons. The microphotons are directed oppositely. Naturally, microparticles from the compressed region (microphoton head) of one microphoton are pushed into the rarefied region (microphoton tail) of another microphoton. The microphotons are turning their directions of propagation. At least partially, they loop on themselves. Such formation of microphotons moving in circle will be called a microparticle. Most microparticles have a similar simple structure of rotating smaller microparticles. Not all structures of microparticles are stable or metastable. Thus, for example, on this layer (Figure 1), most microparticles have the same size, having the most stable structure. On the lower layers (if we zoom in on the space between microparticles) we will see a similar view (Figure 1). The number of layers and possible sizes of microparticles are infinite.

Figure 1. Formation of a particle from two photons

Let us apply this model to atoms. When a photon head reaches a stable atom, the repulsed electron cloud is slightly lengthened and shifted away from the nucleus (Figure 1, the ellipses around the particles are orbits). If the photon is suitable for the atom, the cloud is locked in the new position by electromagnetic forces. The photon is absorbed. In the new position, one electron inside the cloud and one outside do not have an electron pair. We can return the electron cloud to its original position by elongating and displacing it in the other direction with an identical photon (stimulated emission). Although in most cases, background microphotons return the atom to its stable state (spontaneous emission). The electron outside must return to its stable orbit through the electron barrier. Background microphotons cause deviations from orbits and help the displaced electron find its way back between deviated electrons.

If an electron falls from a high orbit due to spontaneous emission, it pushes the electron cloud, producing a photon. A stronger photon corresponds to a stronger push of the next atom by the electron cloud in the propagation line. A pushed atom can immediately rebound to its previous position if the photon is strong enough. But in reality, photons produced by electron clouds are often weak. While the first atom slowly pushes (transfers momentum), the second atom runs away from it. Thus, by the time the first atom returns to its previous position, the millionth atom in the line starts receiving momentum. For this reason, such a weak photon has a large length. We call this length the wavelength and associate it with the effect called interference. This description is simplified, we will come back to it later.

It seems unlikely that we can do any useful analysis of this disordered sea of microphotons (Figure 1), but there are some things we can do. Photon heads (compressed regions) are repulsive, which leads to emergence of some structure in the sea. A flow of photons quickly arranges in a rhombus pattern (Figure 2, left). They can also overlap, but the overlapping pattern remains the same. Other patterns (such as photons moving in columns) are not stable. In this rhombus pattern, the upper and lower photon heads on the left are attracted to the rarefied region (photon tail) between them and cannot move away. At the same time, they are repulsive and cannot move to each other.

Figure 2. Diffraction of light. A good illustration, although exaggerated in the displacement of atoms

All microphotons are forced to form the same rhombus patterns with themselves. From the moment a photon is created, its head repels the heads of less strong but always present background photons and microphotons. If the background photon was traveling not exactly parallel to the photon, its course is corrected so that the photon heads become parallel. In the first moments after creation, the photon acquires its own escort of photons around itself (in front, behind and on the sides). Background microphotons and photons immediately flank it, striving to form compressed regions around it, as in the rhombus pattern.

Why do we show photons moving along the grid (Figure 1)? In Figure 1 we have shown a stable configuration in which the grid is symmetrical to the right and left of the photon. If there is no lateral symmetry, the frontal escort jostles particles until lateral symmetry and stability appear. Therefore, photons simply cannot travel not along the grid in a stable state, which allows them to propagate straight in uniform medium.

I'm sorry I have had enough of Wonderland, Alice.

You have started with space 'filled' with 'microparticles', then grudgingly added with perhaps some empty space left over.

the 'microparticles' can apparantly vary in size and perhaps other properties.

We do not yet have a proper definition of microparticles.

How would i recognise one If I met it in the street ?

Further these microparticles are being pushed about by forces unnamed created by agents unknown.

Since all space is filled with microparticles ( or perhaps nothing) where do the force generating agents reside ?

Then, all of a sudden, out of the blue, red rings appear round the 'microparticles' and we are told these are electrons.

Suddenly atoms appear.

Where do the come from and where do they and the electrons reside ?

Added to these suddenly electronmagnetic forces are involved.

Again where do the come from and how are they distributed ?

What new wonders will appear next in this universe of no spare space and no source of energy or agents of force ?

I will leave you to ponder these questions and suggest you wait until you have solved them before proceeding further with your fairy tale.

In addition to studiot’s critique, you talk about microphotons with explaining the distinction between them and photons. One moves in a straight line but the other in a wavy path, with unexplained density difference of the microparticles.

And you talk about the structure of microparticles but how can they have structure unless they’re built of something smaller?

This is all narrative and no rigor, with all the appearance that you’re making it up as you go. That doesn’t fly here. We have expectations of what get discussed here, and this does not meet them.