On 5/1/2025 at 3:54 PM, exchemist said:

There are plenty of people in stable democracies (amongst which I do not include the Unites States of America) who think they are a terrible idea. I'm one of them. And so is Jemima Kelly of the Financial Times.

Stable democracies? Very interesting...

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alternative_for_Germany

 

On 23 February 2025, the AfD won 20.8% of the vote in the German federal election, second to the CDU/CSU.

 

 

In April 2025, the AfD finishes as the leading party in the first time in opinion polling.[163]

 

  

In May 2025 the Federal Office for the Protection of the Constitution classified the party as a "proven right-wing extremist organisation".[5]

 

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marine_Le_Pen

 

 On 31 March 2025, Le Pen, eight other MEPs, and 12 assistants were convicted of embezzlement for misappropriating over €4 million European Parliament funds to fund National Front staff. The sentences for several MEPs included bans from running for political office. Le Pen was sentenced to four years in prison and a five-year ban from running for political office, effectively disqualifying her from the upcoming 2027 French presidential election. She was also fined €100,000.[24][25][26][27][28][29]

p.s. I am not a fan of AfD or Le Pen, but I see that they are usual spoilers, as Trump, Haley, DeSantis and others.

AfD is not in power, and was just identified as an extremist organization by German intelligence

https://www.dw.com/en/germany-intelligence-agency-labels-afd-party-as-extremist/a-72413346

“The designation gives authorities greater powers to monitor the party, with measures such as intercepting phone calls and using undercover agents.”

Similarly, Le Pen does not hold office.

Every democracy has extremist elements in it. That does not mean they are not stable democracies. When the extremists take over, though, that’s not necessarily the case.

44 minutes ago, Linkey said:

Stable democracies? Very interesting...

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alternative_for_Germany

 

On 23 February 2025, the AfD won 20.8% of the vote in the German federal election, second to the CDU/CSU.

 

 

In April 2025, the AfD finishes as the leading party in the first time in opinion polling.[163]

 

  

In May 2025 the Federal Office for the Protection of the Constitution classified the party as a "proven right-wing extremist organisation".[5]

 

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marine_Le_Pen

 

 On 31 March 2025, Le Pen, eight other MEPs, and 12 assistants were convicted of embezzlement for misappropriating over €4 million European Parliament funds to fund National Front staff. The sentences for several MEPs included bans from running for political office. Le Pen was sentenced to four years in prison and a five-year ban from running for political office, effectively disqualifying her from the upcoming 2027 French presidential election. She was also fined €100,000.[24][25][26][27][28][29]

p.s. I am not a fan of AfD or Le Pen, but I see that they are usual spoilers, as Trump, Haley, DeSantis and others.

Yes, stable democracies, as opposed to the autocracies where you seem to think the people suspicious of crypto are located. I exclude the US because it is turning into an autocracy before our eyes - in fact may already have become one. Depends whether Trump eventually respects the courts, which at present he seems not to be doing. France and Germany are stable democracies as are most countries in Europe, apart from Hungary.

Edited May 2May 2 by exchemist

28 minutes ago, swansont said:

Every democracy has extremist elements in it. That does not mean they are not stable democracies. When the extremists take over, though, that’s not necessarily the case.

Do I understand you correctly, that if there us a risk that extremists can come to power through elections, then the elections must be forbidden?

No, elections are not forbidden. But there must be safeguards to protect the constitution (and mechanisms to override those). A party can be abolished in Germany, if sufficient grounds are found that they are anti-democratic and anti-constitutional, essentially being a risk to the country if elected, they can be sanctioned in various ways.

One thing of note in Germany is that parties are partially financed by the government. Depending on how many votes they get, they have access to governmental funds. One of the mechanisms is therefore to stop funding them.

2 hours ago, Linkey said:

Do I understand you correctly, that if there us a risk that extremists can come to power through elections, then the elections must be forbidden?

Of course not. It is the extremists who, if they gain power, can try to dismantle the democratic mechanisms of the state. Hitler did this. So did Orban in Hungary. The PiS party started to do it in Poland, until they were chucked out. And now we see Trump and his cronies doing it, with remarkable speed and focus, in the USA.

17 minutes ago, exchemist said:

Of course not. It is the extremists who, if they gain power, can try to dismantle the democratic mechanisms of the state. Hitler did this. So did Orban in Hungary. The PiS party started to do it in Poland, until they were chucked out. And now we see Trump and his cronies doing it, with remarkable speed and focus, in the USA.

I think, you haven't answered my question. Again: if there is the risk that some extremists can come to power through elections, do you think that these extremists should be not allowed to participate in the elections (instead, only good, non-extremist, liberal candidates would participate)?
By the way, the word "stable", as I understand this, implies that such scenarios (extremists coming to power) are impossible; is is an oxymoron to say "Germany is stable now, but it will loose the stability if the Germans elect AfD". The Weimar Republic or Russia in 1990th were not stable.

2 hours ago, Linkey said:

Do I understand you correctly, that if there us a risk that extremists can come to power through elections, then the elections must be forbidden?

I don’t know how you can extrapolate to that from what I said. I did not mention forbidding elections, or anything about how to keep extremists from power. I merely said they were not in power in the two examples you gave, and all democracies have extremist members.

So obviously no, you did not understand me correctly.