Oryza sativa Posted February 12 Share Posted February 12 Entropy is a measure of the disorder of a system. The higher the disorder in a system the higher the entropy. In terms of matter there is more disorder in gas state then there is in solid state. As entropy indicates disorder or randomness of a system it also takes more information to describe higher entropy system. It would take less information to describe the structure of matter in solid state then in gas state as solid state is way less disorderly .So the higher the entropy is the more random it would be and the more information it would contain .As such entropy would be proportional to information If we take entropy as being proportional to information then information is not constant as Entropy is not constant. The Second Law of Thermodynamics states that the state of entropy of the entire universe, as an isolated system, will always increase over time. If Entropy is increasing then information in universe is also increasing. Let's say it is Quantum mechanics for which information is increasing. Quantum mechanics describes how the 12 fundamental particles behave. But it is a probabilistic theory. Because fundamentally it is random, new information is being created every time a quantum event occurs. In that case it could be these quantum measurement which are increasing the entropy of the universe as they are creating new information. The higher the entropy the higher the information if fundamentally quantum events are what is creating said information then entropy might be proportional to quantum events. So the number of quantum event might be proportional to the number of entropy. Indicating that if there is a high entropy count then there will be more quantum events. Then the highest entropy spot might be where most of quantum events are taking place. Stephen Hawking showed that black holes emit radiation known as Hawking radiation. By this hawking confirmed that black holes have entropy. He also determined how much entropy they have. The super massive black hole at the center of the Milky Way has about 10 to the 91 Boltzmann constants of entropy. That is 1000 times as much as the early observable universe, and 10 times more than all the other particles combined. And that is just one black hole. All black holes together account for 3 times 10 to the 104 Boltzmann constant of entropy. So almost all the entropy on the universe is tied up in black holes. So, Hawking's radiation being very high entropy, should hold most quantum events of the universe. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...

exchemist Posted February 12 Share Posted February 12 (edited) 2 hours ago, Oryza sativa said: Entropy is a measure of the disorder of a system. The higher the disorder in a system the higher the entropy. In terms of matter there is more disorder in gas state then there is in solid state. As entropy indicates disorder or randomness of a system it also takes more information to describe higher entropy system. It would take less information to describe the structure of matter in solid state then in gas state as solid state is way less disorderly .So the higher the entropy is the more random it would be and the more information it would contain .As such entropy would be proportional to information If we take entropy as being proportional to information then information is not constant as Entropy is not constant. The Second Law of Thermodynamics states that the state of entropy of the entire universe, as an isolated system, will always increase over time. If Entropy is increasing then information in universe is also increasing. Let's say it is Quantum mechanics for which information is increasing. Quantum mechanics describes how the 12 fundamental particles behave. But it is a probabilistic theory. Because fundamentally it is random, new information is being created every time a quantum event occurs. In that case it could be these quantum measurement which are increasing the entropy of the universe as they are creating new information. The higher the entropy the higher the information if fundamentally quantum events are what is creating said information then entropy might be proportional to quantum events. So the number of quantum event might be proportional to the number of entropy. Indicating that if there is a high entropy count then there will be more quantum events. Then the highest entropy spot might be where most of quantum events are taking place. Stephen Hawking showed that black holes emit radiation known as Hawking radiation. By this hawking confirmed that black holes have entropy. He also determined how much entropy they have. The super massive black hole at the center of the Milky Way has about 10 to the 91 Boltzmann constants of entropy. That is 1000 times as much as the early observable universe, and 10 times more than all the other particles combined. And that is just one black hole. All black holes together account for 3 times 10 to the 104 Boltzmann constant of entropy. So almost all the entropy on the universe is tied up in black holes. So, Hawking's radiation being very high entropy, should hold most quantum events of the universe. I think there is something wrong here. My understanding is that the entropy corresponds to the information needed to fully describe the system that is absent. Or actually a better word might be unavailable. So you can't equate entropy with information, but to its unavailability. There is a discussion of this here: https://physics.stackexchange.com/questions/75146/entropy-and-information Edited February 12 by exchemist Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...

Genady Posted February 12 Share Posted February 12 1 hour ago, Oryza sativa said: new information is being created every time a quantum event occurs If it were true, it'd be possible to attach a quantity to it: for example, how much new information is being created when an electron goes from one orbital to another in an atom? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...

joigus Posted February 12 Share Posted February 12 2 hours ago, Oryza sativa said: If Entropy is increasing then information in universe is also increasing. This is wrong. As @exchemist said, entropy does not represent the total information, but only the part that your description "cannot see". Say you have 2 grams of hydrogen. This is about 6x10²³ molecules. The number of coordinates in phase space (positions and momenta) of this system is about 3.6x10²⁴. All of this is information, and this information is never lost. In theoretical physics that's called microscopic entropy, or also volume of phase space. The fact that it is a constant is called Liouville's theorem or "conservation of phase-space volume", or "conservation of information", or "conservation of the number of distinctions". Now, usually you want to describe that sample of matter, not in terms of all the molecular coordinates, but in terms of a reduced number of parameters: pressure, volume, temperature, internal energy, and so on. It is because you can do that for all relevant purposes that this entropy that we use in thermodynamics becomes relevant. It is this entropy the one that always increases. In the case of a BH, something similar happens. The BH is described by just (M, Q, J) --mass, electric charge, and angular momentum. Yet, it must have some microscopic degrees of freedom that account for this thermality. It's not so clear to me what you mean when you say, 2 hours ago, Oryza sativa said: So, Hawking's radiation being very high entropy, should hold most quantum events of the universe. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...

Oryza sativa Posted February 12 Author Share Posted February 12 4 hours ago, Oryza sativa said: If Entropy is increasing then information in universe is also increasing. That makes sense, because it would take more information to specify the state of the universe now, than right after the Big Bang. So, where is this new information coming from? 4 hours ago, Oryza sativa said: Let's say it is Quantum mechanics for which information is increasing. Quantum mechanics describes how the 12 fundamental particles behave. But it is a probabilistic theory. Because fundamentally it is random, new information is being created every time a quantum event occurs. In that case it could be these quantum measurement which are increasing the entropy of the universe as they are creating new information. The higher the entropy the higher the information if fundamentally quantum events are what is creating said information then entropy might be proportional to quantum events. Quantum events are fundamentally probabilistic. so no matter how well you knew the initial situation you could not predict the outcome. So when ever such event occurs new information is created. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...

sethoflagos Posted February 12 Share Posted February 12 So you dispute the law of conservation of quantum information, which is a consequence of the no-hiding theorem. This is in turn considered rigorously proven by many authorities. Your argument by common sense seems to fall a little short in comparison. Google is your friend. The wiki page for 'no hiding theorem' addresses most of your misunderstandings. Even the black hole stuff. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...

MigL Posted February 12 Share Posted February 12 (edited) Interesting. While your assertion is not accurate, in general; entropy increases as more and more as the available information becomes unavailable. The global increase in unavailable information has been occurring since the beginning of the universe, even though, locally, entropy and available information can increase. The place where your assertion makes sense is where ALL information relating to a Black Hole is 'stored'; at the Event Horizon.If a BH renders all information crossing the EH, unavailable, then the area of the EH is proportional both to its entropy and information. Hawking and Bekenstein showed the entropy is indeed proportional to the EV area, and so, temperature, and Hawking 'black body' radiation at that temperature. Similarly, I believe it was E Wigner who showed that a limit exists on how much total information can be accumulated in a space before collapse into a BH with an EV whose area is proportional to that information. This limit is about 10^{69} bits/m^{2}. The information, and entropy, is localized in Planck sized domains on the surface of the EH, and surprisingly, these domains have some interesting connections to Loop Quantum Gravity. Edited February 12 by MigL Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...

joigus Posted February 12 Share Posted February 12 1 hour ago, Oryza sativa said: Quantum events are fundamentally probabilistic. so no matter how well you knew the initial situation you could not predict the outcome. Not true. That depends on how you prepare the initial situation and what you want to measure. Some outcomes you cannot predict. All the outcomes compatible with the eigenstate you have prepared (AKA 'knowing the initial situation') can be predicted with 100% accuracy. But I have the feeling that something, very much related to information, is becoming quickly unavailable on this thread. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...

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