Athena

I never associated freedom of speech with the right to say anything we please, wherever we please. That obviously is tolerance of immorality, and I am never tolerant of immorality. In these private forums, if those running them do not respect freedom of speech, the country will not, because it is the people who enforce the principles of democracy, not the police of military. It is our duty to defend our liberty by raising objections when anyone threatens our liberty, and censorship can most definitely be a threat to our liberty. On the other hand, protecting burning the flag or covering a statue of Mary with cow dung, is immoral and should not be considered protected freedom of speech. Freedom of speech is not an act of disrespect or destruction, but the use of words in argument. It is about reasoning and engaging others in the process. It must be protected with rules for morality. All liberties are protected by rules for morality. Agreeing that the rules of private property can change the rules of how we live together is dangerous, and this is why I discuss NAZI Germany so much. What made us different from Germany was culture and our institutions. We adopted the German model of education for technology and stopped transmitting our culture, so it is no longer our culture that makes different from the Germany that came under the NAZI machine, that makes us different. We adopted the German model of bureaucracy, so it is no longer the organization of government that makes us different. I think it necessary to use the German model of bureaucracy, but not transmitting in our in the classroom, could be a mistake, and as long someone argues in favor of private property rights trumping rules that protect our liberty, I will raise an alarm. This is a matter of values, and our future. I will not be in the future, but my grant grandchildren will live it, and care very much about their future. What do you value when you argue against protecting freedom of speech? This forum is like a religious organization? Ah, I have been concerned about it being as dogmatic as religion, and I am quite sure no one approves of that. That is why I raise the issue. I don't think we have disagreement on values, but possibly our reasoning of shared values is different? I think we share in common a desire for truth, and the belief that critical thinking is the path to truth. I do not enter religious organization buildings and attempt to engage people gathering for a religious service in a critical discussion of their beliefs. If it is agreed these forums are equal to such a religious organization, I will not enter the forums, again. Wow, I think you hit the nail on the head. ARE THESE FORUMS EQUAL TO RELIGIOUS ORGANIZATIONS? THIS IS WHAT I FEARED WHEN I BEGAN THIS THREAD. Thank you for speaking truth. Now how is this different from being NAZI? Who or what can protect our liberty and justice if it is not you?

I really didn't like the pictures, but killing humans is justified in different ways. We dehumanize the human. The word "enemy" is used to dehumanize the human, and make the human easier to kill. How we think of the life in the womb influences the decision we make about the life.

You are probably right. Some months ago, in the media was talk of cold viruses getting stick in cold weather, but that is not what is being said in a google search today. Today I read the hairs in our nose and our mucus defense works less well in cold weather. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mucus However it works, I think rinsing the nasal passages with saline water helps prevent the viruses from getting a hold. With the new information, it seems prudent to rinse the nose immediately when coming in from the cold, it exposure to a virus is likely? Last winter I survived an Occupy camp full of sneezing and coughing people, without getting sick, and I rinses my nasal passages as soon as got home. May be I was just lucky? For awhile the sickness was so bad, I was afraid to go into the camp, and rinsing at least held me deal with the fear. What are the other possibilities? wearing garlic around our necks and a pocket full of posies? Iota, glad you saw the doctor.

That is good to know. Iota, how is your ear now. An ear infection is not something to play with, and I am concerned about you.

Thank you Alan! We need to be more realistic about our human nature. I think some people think I point at Germans as examples of terrible people. No, that is not it. We are all pretty much the same. Only our cultures and institutions make us different, and the US adopted German models of education and bureaucracy, so now how different can the US be? The conditions in civil war camps were horrific. The Civil War in the US was humanity at its worst, and we don't discuss if Lincoln was intrinsically evil. These things get out of hand, and terrible things happen, but I don't think that is anyone's intent at the beginning. The US citizens surely did not want years of war with Iraq and Afghanistan, and for the rest of the mid east to enter violent conflicts, and to spend trillions of dollars that eventually tax payers must pay. Sometimes it appears our opinion of human intelligence is greatly over estimated.

Interesting, I looked up progressivism and found a bunch of words not in my vocabulary. It was trying to read a foreign language. I am not sure how science, or a political party can serve the same function as God. God's truth is what is true for all of us, no matter where we live. The trick is how do we determine God's truth. God's truth is about how things work, and there are two ways to know how God works. Experience and critical thinking. I understand how this works with science, but not with how it works for political parties. However, now you have me questioning how logical politics can be? I like zoology for understanding human behaviors. Ayn Rand seems to favor chimps over bonobo? All social species must constantly decide to put self first or others first, and I would rather be a bonobo than a chimp. If one doesn't make the right choices, one ends up on the margin of the group where life is more at risk, or this individual can be driven away from the group, and forced to seek another group. Male dominated chimps seem to work less well together than female dominated bonobo. The bonobo have more intimate contact with each other, using physical sensation to sooth each other. Chimps are less apt to sooth each other, and I guess we could say, more individualistic. It should be noted food resources and environmental factors like, predictors, play into this difference. What makes humans different is they can observe both, and make group decisions about what is a good life, and how to achieve that. Humans can base behaviors on abstract concepts, not just the feel at the moment. I can not think of anything that gets us to thinking about such things better than contemplating God. So why God, is we have the brains for this kind of thinking. We are not as limited as chimps and baboons, although some seem to choose to be so limited. They insist on seeing everything from a personal point of view, rather then projecting into a God and attempting to see things from the bigger point of view. Does that make sense? What else gets us out of ourselves, better than God? Our brains are biologically limited and we are not being realistic about this. Thinking a mass of humanity, does not do to our thinking what thinking of God can do for our thinking. We have intimate relationships with only a hand full of people, family and friends, and we put these people above all others. Decision making groups are best with 10 to 12 people. A person is doing well to remember the names of 500 people and something about them, but when we get past 500, we start objectifying people, as those Africans who live on a different continent and are not one of us, or those Muslims, or Jews, or communist. We do not identify with those people. Their needs are not our concern. What kind of thinking goes into thinking about these groups? Now what kind of thinking results from thinking of God? Isn't there an important difference? PS, as I understand democracy it is rule by reason, and it is an understanding of how God works that manifest rule by reason. Without God, politics, seems to be about personal interest, not about manifesting the best possible life on earth for everyone. Without those Germans, we wouldn't have Social Security and Workers Compensation, and I think those are good things. People who argue me, instead of questioning what I mean, often prevent understanding, because then I am trying to manage their objections, instead of discussing what I want to discuss.

Was Henry Ford evil? His book was translated in 16 languages, and countries willingly turned on the Jews. I think we tend to make too much out the men of history, because they are only riding a wave. Jews had a terrible bloody conflict with Greeks, when Greeks took control of the region. Jews pissed the Romans off so badly, they were kicked out and the land became Palestine. Christian countries have a terrible history of persecuting Jews, and it was the Muslims who gave them refuge. Zionism really ruined that relationship. Martin Luther who is credited with starting the Protestant Revolution hated Jews! No one could possible hold more responsibility for the mistreatment of Jews than Martin Luther. Hitler took his concentration camp idea from the US native American reservations, and that in times of war, when resources are scarce, prisoners suffer terribly! This was true in US Civil War camps, in Japanese prisoner of war camps, and in Germany. If we were as thoughtful of history as we have become of science, perhaps we could gain better judgment? Maybe someday, international agreements about the decent treatment of war prisoners, will mean laws against torturing them, means torturing them is taboo. Perhaps we need to get out of denial about different from the rest of humanity? The mistreatment of prisoners, or whatever we want to call those held in concentration camps, reservations, or outside the wall, involves many things. Lack of resources is a big factor in the mistreatment. Hitler did not begin with the idea of creating so much suffering, and he was not the sole decision maker. But like Lincoln, he couldn't stop what was in motion.

Okay, how about this- how much does a baby know the day it is born? What do we know before learning? Without language, just how much abstract thinking can a human do? The word "genocide" is a relatively new word, and words change our consciousness. Science is not possible without a vocabulary for it. With the word "genocide" came international laws to prevent it. Before this, what the US did to native Americans forced onto reservations, was genocide, but we didn't have a word for it and the wrong was not part of our consciousness. Laws require words that make us conscious of concepts. Perhaps we should not mistake our potential to learn with having knowledge? Our communication problem results from education for technology no longer transmitting the culture public education once transmitting, or the problem could be that people live in a different country and have no experience with the culture that was transmitted through education in the US. The culture that was transmitting was based on a belief in God. Here is a sample of that culture from a 1910 text book... I am not saying this right, I am saying it is culture based on a belief in God. A culture we no longer have. ABSTRACT THINKING THAT IS NO LONGER TAUGHT, AND THEREFORE, NO LONGER PART OF OUR CONSCIOUSNESS. This text book is titled "The Story of the American Flag" by Wayne Whipple. The original purpose of federal government mandated, free public education in the US was to transmit a culture, and Americanize the flood the immigrants, teaching every child a set of American principles and making them good citizens. Making the United States united and strong. Saying a plague to the flag of America was the main way of making children with immigrant parents feel like they belong to this country, and this text teachings that idealism. "Our flag carries American ideas, American history, and American feelings. Beginning with the colonies, and coming down to our time, in its sacred heraldry, in its glorious insignia, it has gathered and stored chiefly this supreme idea: divine right of liberty in man. Every color means liberty; every thread means liberty; every form of star and beam or stripe of light means liberty- liberty through law, and laws for liberty. This American Flag was the safeguard of liberty. Not an atom of crown was allowed to go into its insignia. Not a symbol of authority in the ruler was permitted to go into it. It was an ordinance of liberty by the people, for the people. That it meant, that it means, and, by the blessing of God, that it shall mean to the end of time!" Understanding our democracy can not be separated from understand God. Regardless what you think of God, our culture was shaped in a belief of God, and it is that culture that I defend. My understanding of God is not Christian. It is not the God of Abraham. It is the "Laws of Nature and Nature's God". That is a God that comes out of Greek philosophy and is essential to our understanding of democracy. No military force can defend a democracy that is forgotten.

Henry Ford holds some responsibility for the what NAZI did to Jews. http://history.hanov...99/hhr99_2.html http://www.guardian.....secondworldwar Somehow Bush Seniors boasting of the New World Order , and this information, didn't prevent the election of Bush Jr. winning elections.

The following comes from the link in my previous post. I bring it to attention because Ewmon writes of the conditions that make the men of history, and I totally agree with this point of view. When I was reading a 1933 book about Eugenics, written by an American doctor, I was thinking it read exactly like something from NAZI Germany. The thinking had begun in the US and Hitler's concentration also came from the US. In the US these concentration camps were native American reservations. And then we come to what Bush had to say of our history. You know Bush, the man who bragged about the New World Order.? Eventually I hope to get to discussions about the unrealistic expectations of technology, and the possible need to make many adjustments. We have not eliminated those who burden society as Herman H. Rubin, M.D. had expected we would when he wrote Eugenics and Sex Harmony.

I will grant you, I didn't clarify what I meant by abstract thinking. I never thought I would have to explain so much, before what I am saying is understood. When I realized abstract thinking needed to be explained, I provided a link for higher order thinking. Then Imatfaal began jumping on me for derailing the thread. I had to pull away and regroup my thoughts. One of the problems resulting from replacing liberal education with education for technology, is old meanings are not being transmitted to the young, so we have a huge communication gap. It is a huge challenge to bridge that communication gap. I still am not comprehending why saying God is a space holder, as the X in algebra didn't end the argument. This thinking is different from animal thinking, and it is why we can have self government, and animals can not. You did not become a physicist without education so I really don't understand why you are arguing? Do you know of animals capable of the thinking you do? I think not. Ants might be great builders, as were the Egyptians, but neither can do what you have learned to do. Practical experience can lead us to building bridges and pyramids, but it does not lead to the sciences, nor an understanding of God as I understand God. The Great Pyramid was built in 3900 BC by rules based on practical experience; Euclid's system did not appear until 3,600 years later. Euclid's book on geometry put all the facts known into the form of a system. Around this time Aristotle was inventing the linear logic system. Both move us to a higher order of thinking, and this is what needs to be learned, because it does not come naturally to us. This development of abstract thinking systems/skills is what gives us a God that does not rule by whim, but laws that are the same everywhere and for everyone. A concept essential to democracy. The idea that we all are equal under the sun, does not come from the bible which is old religion from the time when there were many gods, and everyone had a patron god or goddess. These patron gods and goddesses had favorites, just like parents favor their children over others. Writing the bible involves abstract thinking, but not higher order thinking which comes out of Athens around 300BC. It is both universal laws and our mental potential, that makes self government possible. Without understanding this, democracy does not work, but is a mass, quick to become a mob, and requires strong authority above it. I keep speaking of God and liberty and there is a very important connection between the two. Only highly moral people can have liberty, and this morality is not based in religion, but in logic. Unfortunately, unless we teach our young how to exercise logic, they are not run on logic, but on feelings. All their logic, revolves themselves like a dogs thoughts revolve around itself. Higher order thinking involves everything under God. Huge difference, and if we don't get it, we may not continue to enjoy democracy with liberty much longer. We can not afford our increasing welfare and prison populations, and have a few environmental problems to work out.

Hitler was no more a mad than any of the US presidents. Being a leader of a nation is being bigger than life, and I don't think anyone is prepared for that. The pressures on these people lead them to do good things and not so good things. I see Hitler more as an actor like Reagan, than a bad guy. They do a great job of acting, and it is the people who lead them. That is they do what they believe will make them most popular. Cheney, Bush and neo cons, planned the New Century American Project, long before 9/11. This is the political/economic/military domination of the mid east, and a continuation of what Eisenhower and Reagan were doing. They lead the US to bomb Iraq, a country that had not declared on us and did not mobilized its military to attack the US. They invade Iraq, and try to do it on the cheap, leading to death of many our young men and women. They were wrong to assume our "Power and Glory" the "Shock and Awe" would lead to immediate surrender. They use the Christian right to support this war and re-elect Bush. Oh, and like Hitler, they don't tax for this war! This is less wrong than what Hitler did why? By the way the NAZI movement is still with us today. Not everyone believes it is wrong. About abortion in 1960 this link provides information. It was not illegal in all states. http://fundabortionn...about/our-story You sound a bit naive thinking war effected only one person badly. How could you listen to the reports from war zones and not know war distorts people's thinking. This is not only true of those in war zones, but all those involved. Treating people as subhumans isn't even unique to war zones. The South treated black people as subhumans, and is still having trouble accepting them as equals. Our prison system, in peace time brings out the worst in people. A college study using students who were only role playing prisoners and guards has to cut short, because the students personalities were getting so distorted. Perhaps we need to be a whole more honest about war and human nature? Oh it is your arguments I am reading moontanman. You are hitting pretty hard, and those punches need to be thrown. I very appreciate the Christian connection to the intolerable behavior. It is good to be on the same side of the fence this time. The machine can not be stopped once it is in motion. Mooeypoo argued that the German model of bureaucracy has been adopted around the world. We still have not discussed why the US defended its democracy against it in two world wars, and we ignore Eisenhower's warning, and Bush who loved the New World Order was popular until the economy went belly up. I think you are more optimistic than I am about our future. I really have a point to make, and want to point out Hitler was admired around the world. Hitler also admired many things started in the US, such as eugenics and what could be called the concentration filled with native Americans. Morality www.skeptic.ca/American_Genocide.htmHitler admired the concentration camps for American Indians and according to his biographer John Toland, “often praised to his inner circle the efficiency of ... The Adolf Hitler Admiration Society: It's Springtime for Hitler Again ... www.writeonnewjersey.com/.../the-adolf-hitler-admiration-society-its...Mar 11, 2011 – Oddly enough, Hitler also admired America and certain things American. In 1934, he sent congratulations to President Roosevelt for the ... There are pretty girls in the u tube video "It's Springtime for Hitler"

That is the attitude most had when only the rich were going to have their income taxed. Most people thought they would never earn enough money to worry about paying income taxes. Somehow throughout history, money and power have gone together, and those who have it don't pay taxes. It was the little guy barely surviving who had to pay the taxes. Oh come on. How many people earn enough to buy a house and medical insurance, let alone investing their money for retirement? It takes money to make money and people working for a wage are lucky if they can rent and stay healthy enough to avoid medical expenses, because they can't afford insurance. There are only so many hours in the day, and may God have mercies on the poor soul who must depend on trading his labor for all his needs. Resentful? of what? Admittedly I sometimes, wish I had been born male and raised by my father, because that would have given me far more advances than being born female and being raised by the woman he dumped, but I don't even come close to resenting my half brother who got all the advantages I didn't get. I just see the other side of reality. The side can not live off their money. The GI bill was a great boon to us, because it put so many men in college, when new technologies were ready to bloom. It took relatively very little education for these men to get in on the bottom of floor, and enjoy upward economic mobility. The story was very different for the women who worked during the war years and were laid off when the men came home, or who were dumped with their children, and prevented from entering colleges and careers. Women who had advantaged fathers, who were okay with them entering science or business, did much better than the women who had no fathers, or insisted the only fit thing for a woman is to marry and care for a family. This reality does not necessarily lead to resentment, because their are those who believe there is value in serving, and do so without much pay, or maybe no pay at all. These people are not less deserving, they have different values, and basic to those the values is the belief that we work together and care for each other. The rich get rich off these people, and if they can't rich enough off the US laborer, they exploit labor somewhere else. Perhaps they should move to where their money is being invested? When the investor lived in the same town as his factory, human nature lead to more caring relations with those in his community. However, the Appalachia's were gutted of their wealth, leaving environment disaster and poverty in the wake by investors who never lived there. Now investors are doing this around the world, and we are paying a huge price for the military defense of this activity. Many are profiting nicely with government contracts for supplying the Military Industrial Complex, but it is not the average laborer. It is said we are a democracy, and we are asked to give our sons, and fathers to defend our country, but the economic system doesn't look very democratic to me. "We the people", you know, the people who are suppose to have self government, and might want to do something about having autocratic industry that guts their country of wealth, exploits them, and then moves on to exploit the land and labor of others. I think a more reasonable way of managing things, is investing in the land and people. That is what results in national wealth and a decent standard of living, on which we all depend. The US begins with a policy in James Town, where by if you don't work, you don't eat. There are some benefits to that rule. I will add to it, if you don't live here, you can't own it.

Mooeypoo: Let's see if I understand you correctly. You are saying governments all over the world found the German model of bureaucracy useful, and I am ridiculous for saying the US adopted the German model of bureaucracy? I don't follow your logic? Perhaps you meant to agree about the US adopting the German model of bureaucracy, and question if there is a problem with that? Padren: I want to focus on "citizens get tired of suffering under the partisan-induced stagnancy" because, my gosh do we have that now, in the US! Saroleo wrote of German politics being reactionary. Later Brickner writes of Germany being paranoid, and he defines paranoia as an excessive need to be superior and in control. Might I say, the German model of bureaucracy and education has its benefits, but there are also draw backs. I think an excessive need to be superior and in control is a drawback. When the will to be superior and in control is divided, isn't it logical partisan-induced stagnancy would follow? This is not democracy. However, because we haven't had education for democracy, I don't expect agreement. I am just hoping to plant seeds of thought. I want to like Obama but oh my goodness, he is using executive power a lot. This comes years after Aruthur M. Schlesinger, Jr. wrote "The Imperial Presidency" 1973. "The American Presidency is in crisis. People are concerned today as rarely before about the expansion and abuse of presidential power." This is about 40 years after the warnings government changes made during the Roosevelt administration, that gave our government powers it never had before. This goes with Mario Pei's 1969 book "The America We Lost", "A famous scholar's eloquent and heartfelt pleas to restore our country's vanishing greatness", with an introduction written by William F. Buckley, Jr.. Plus the books written during and following the WWII about the potentially dangerous relationship growing between industry and government. You know, as in Military Industrial Complex, or what Hitler and Bush called the New World Order. This is the mechanical society we defended our democracy against. Our forefathers gave us rules to live by. They wrote laws, not policies that manage the minutest details of our lives, as Tocqueville feared would happen when he wrote "Democracy in America" in 1830. It took the German model of bureaucracy to manifest what Tocqueville feared. Now be a good citizen, and don't trouble yourself with what is being said. These things are too complex for the average citizens who have enough to vote on what they given to vote about. Seriously, the reasoning of the US today, is the total opposite of what it once was. Comparing the US to Rome is helpful. Civilizations raise and fall, and democracy is supposed to prevent this, but has not. I think we need better information about the rise and fall of civilizations. I am not prepared to discuss that. I do better with explaining democracy as an ideology and away of life organized by principles that we have forgotten.

I am glad you are still interested. I thought people had lost interest in the thread. Also I tend to be very busy with mundane life, especially since my daughter in law has begun having operations, and my granddaughter needs more of my time. There is a huge difference between classical Greek and Roman philosophy, and Germany philosophy. A concept of God plays an important role philosophy. The classical understanding of God comes from a belief in many gods that are abstract explanations of natural forces. These forces of nature are humanized, like we tend to humanize our machines and give them names and speak of their personalities. This is one of understanding "man is the measure of all things". From our point of view, the stories are more interesting and easier to remember, if they are about humans. Greek mythology tells us about nature and human nature. The God of Abraham is completely separate from natural forces, and paradoxically is more is 100% a supernatural being, but is adopted by a religion that opposes the pagan gods. At least 5 bible stories are translations of Sumerian stories that are tied to natural events, but when the translation is made, it is made by new people reading even documents of a civilization that no longer exist, and the stories come out completed separated from nature. This means, not only is this God not a God of nature, but human beings are also completed separated from nature! They are created by an unearthly God in his image. Come to think of it, this could be a little scary. It also has dire consequences for our poor planet. Democracy comes out Greek and Roman classics, philosophy. Only when education transmit this is democracy defended. When education fails to transmit this information it fails to transmit the meanings of all the thoughts and concepts vital to the culture. Here is where Christianity has been a devastating blow to democracy, because it has everyone convinced civilization and democracy are because of Christians. Excuse me, civilizations existed how many thousands of years before Christianity? Not only did the exist and thrive, but Athens had us the path to science, and Christianity took us off that path. German philosophy is separated from the gods of nature, because it was Christianized. All of philosophy is a result of this. I don't care if they believed in God or not. Their understanding of God, AND HUMAN NATURE, is a Christian one. So is their understanding of war. Democratic people do not engage war unless they are attacked. However, religious people can be convinced God wants them to kill in the name of God. Just because people think they are democratic and have some power to vote, that does not make them democratic. God knows the US is full of autocratic people, and that many of its churches, its industry and military are autocratic, and because they are not aware of this, they do not recognize how autocratic their government has become. The Christian Republic of Germany was hijacked and turned into a war machine, exactly as the US democracy was hijacked and turned into a war machine. Whoo, I need to take 2 asprin and go to bed after working my way through that explanation. Greek gods are the forces of nature. The God of Abraham is not. Now which would you say is the most superstitious? You know, superstitious, a belief in supernatural forces? You know, David's god of war that is no different from the other god's of war, but some how got to be the 'one and only God", even for atheist who insist the Christian God is the only explanation of god we can use when discussing god. The god of German philosophy. And we think civilizations based on this war God, define human nature. We don't have a clue that maybe what we think is human nature, is just a human reaction to a belief system. Bush jr. didn't become Christian until he decided to run for the presidency of the US, and then he couldn't stop talking about the New World Order, and he took us into a war built in lies. Elected and reelected by a Christian right, running the war machine that was transplanted from Germany to the US.

The comparisons between Germany and the US are simple. 1. The US adopted the German model of bureaucracy. This is how government is organized and the change took us from living under laws to living under government policies. It took us from individual judgment to policy decisions. I am afraid people are clueless about how this shifted power from the individual to the state, and that they don't care about something of which they are not aware. They just don't think about it. Then argue there is no comparison? 2. The US stopped transmitting its culture when it adopted the German model of education for technology. William James wrote in 1899, "If we reflect upon the various ideals of education that are prevalent in the different countries, we see that what they all aim at is to organize capacities for conduct." Liberal education is about liberating the mind, and teaching citizenship, preparing youth for adulthood, good moral judgment and independent thinking. Education for technology leaves all that to the church and parents, and prepares youth for a technological society with unknown values. This means reliance on laws and law enforcement for social order, rather than the education of a child. This is important to this thread, because the philosophy show was arguing science is amoral, and could lead to something like Hitler's Germany. That is true with education for technology. It was not true with liberal education. That is because education for technology is amoral and liberal education is very much about morality. Mooeypoo, Anyone studying science is studying universal truths. This was determined in ancient Athens, when it was a determined a triangle on earth would be a triangle any place in the universe, because it is not a triangle if it is not a triangle. Your argument that you do not believe in universal truths, is like Christians arguing that scientist sometimes get it wrong, therefore we should be believe in the bible before believing in science. If your understanding of science came out of the education we had, you would know it goes with morality, and there would not be a fear of science manifesting what Germany had.

Yes, I am comparing Germany with the US because I knew we adopted German education for technology. Everything I know begins with a study of the history of education. My grandmother defended democracy in the classroom and in response to loosing her, I wanted to know what that meant. What was the meaning of her life? At first I expected to buy only one old school text and find the set of American values that every child was taught. I now have to an extra room for my library. Many of these books, as early as 1899, speak of German education. The purpose of German education was advancing technology for military and industrial purpose and they had a relationship with industry very different ours, for military reasons. We are talking Star Trek Klayons verses Captain Kirk and his crew. In fact I believe Klayon language was an imitation of German? Also we know Germany through a study of the fall of Rome. They became the Holy Roman Empire and did a pretty good job ruling a vast area. These are Romanized barbarians. That is, they carry Rome's elements of civilization. Now in a history forum there is a discussion about what happened to the Prussians. That is too much information for here, but following the 30 Years conflict that devastated Germany the Prussians took control of Germany, and this is information we really should pay attention to, because from here the Prussians did to Germany what was done to the US following the second world war. I am talking about what Eisenhower called the Military Industrial Complex, and what Hitler and Bush called the New World Order. I would love to get into the fall of Rome and if the US is falling, but that is not the subject of this thread. The subject is actually about science and morality. The PBS philosophy program, wrongly said Hitler's Germany was reliant on science. This is wrong, because education for technology actually encourages superstition. Let me immediately say, I don't know when the US became a science and industrial leader, but in my head are stories of building a railroad, and steam ships, telephone, radio, TV, and IBM ruled in computer technology, all before the US replaced liberal education with education for technology. I am not attacking science and technology, but the change in education that encourages superstition, competitiveness, is amoral, and does a piss poor job of transitioning youth to adults. The pursuit of happiness does mean self indulgence, as so many people seem to think it means today. We have had major cultural change, and this is not the democracy we defended in two world wars. Perhaps Romans could have screamed about the same decline we seem to be experiencing? Cicero, the Roman statesman known for defending Rome's democracy, wrote much about duty to the state, and about self indulgence. And God knows there is a whole lot to say about the moral decline of Rome, and how defending Rome stopped being a citizen duty, and that their soldiers were paid, boy oh boy, we certainly are as Rome falling in many ways. But lets get back to education for technology being amoral and encouraging superstition. Why does education for technology encourage superstition? Hitler opposed reason, and promised his people magic, and they loved him. Because education for technology is not education for science. All technician needs to know is a set of skills to do the job. Think military. What does a military want? Does a military want independent thinkers who constantly operate on moral considerations, question authority as though they are the final authority, not the person over them, and believe it is their civic duty to keep their country on a moral path, or would it prefer people with technological skills, trained to be obedient and follow orders? What I keep saying about God and liberty is tied to this question. It is education for technology and leaving moral education to the church, that unleashed the horrors of Germany. This mentality goes with the model for bureaucracy that we have adopted. These great organizations completely crush individual liberty and power. We have apathy and are experiencing atrophy because we have educated for this. HERE IS THE REAL KICKER. ATHENS MADE THE SAME EDUCATION MISTAKE WHEN IT BEGAN EXPANDING. This subject is much deeper than many realize. Why do you think the US is opposed to Iran having nuclear power plants? How about because these were developed and built in the US not because of energy crisis but a nuclear crisis. The USSR had nuclear capabilities and Sputnik proved it could deliver the bombs. Nuclear energy plants were needed to produce whatever it is that is used in nuclear bombs. We soon had surplus of nuclear bombs and then had to deal with radio active waste, and my father who was paid to manage that waste, said we are not doing a good job of it, so he quit his job on moral grounds. My father went on to work for NASA. Who can deny NASA was about the nuclear race with the USSR and is directly related to military goals, such as spying and delivering weapons? Really? The US has military bases around the world. We can't keep our children in inner city slums safe and well educated, but we can keep the world safe. Long before education for technology, IBM was a leader in computers. My mother was a key punch operator before I was born and I am an old lady. It wasn't that long ago when my utility bill was on a key punch card. Because of this thread, I have been asking about who lead the world in science and industry and I am getting names of every country except the US. What the heck?! I used to argue that other countries were first in the developing many things, but now I am arguing that the US government got involved with developing technology for military reasons, and I am shock that is even necessary. Hello out there, nuclear power plants were about making nuclear bombs, and the Internet comes out of government funded research for military purpose, and NASA has gone far beyond getting a man to the moon. Child is here, must run.., but think of research and advertizing research into what makes us remember and hook us into buying a product. Add this to it is the government research that developed LSD and put it on the streets. Think about German psychology and things like Behaviorism. Think military and government funding. What we are talking about here is not as innocent as people seem to want to believe. Oh, remember Bush and the invasion of Iraq, you know "Shock and Ave", "Power and Glory". And whoops, Iraq didn't have a nuclear weapon. Add this to Reagan and the transfer of wealth following research and the media reporting welfare fraud. Eisenhower was telling us something when he said to be aware of the Military Industrial Complex, his administration put things in order, including the new connection between research and the media, and if we do not compare ourselves with Germany, we are fools who will be able to see what is happening.

Whoops, talk about small town thinking, of course the whole world knows what U of O stands for. As CharonY pointed out, I goofed by thinking of only one meaning. For me there is only one U of O. The University of Oregon. That is where the Knight library is and within the Knight library are year books, the Abstracts from the beginning of making these books. Perhaps when dinosaurs still walked the earth. And also a document department, where all the old government documents can be found. This is where I began my research on the 1958 National Defense Education Act, that was to last 4 years, but instead became a permanent change in public education. While there, I began checking other books for the year 1958 and I was blown away by what I found. Like a letter from Eisenhower praising the Germans for their contribution to democracy peaked my curiosity. Then there was stuff about government making new connections with the media and research. Exactly what Reagan needed to convince us our economic troubles were because of those poor folks, not industrial and banking decisions. At the time, I didn't know what I would find. I am not even sure I had even heard about the Military Industrial Complex. I was being curious, and I don't think the information meant much to me, except to know about the 1958 Education Act.

Those are excellent criticism. Note that many thought fascism was the solution to our economic problems, and we rejected Deming's model for democratic industry, while Franklin shifted us to fascism, more government control of privately own industry, and adopted Germany's social social programs for Social Security and Worker's Compensation. My main objection to replacing liberal education with education for technology is the shift from training for independent thinking and moral judgment, to "group think" and leaving moral training to the church. Remember before this switch in education, the US was a leader in science and technology. That is, liberal education made the US a leader. Education for technology was modeled after German education for technology for military reasons. Education for technology rapidly advances military technology, which is important as we entered war, and again when the USSR not only had a nuclear bomb, but with Sputnik proved the ability to deliver the bomb. However, this education for the New World Order, left moral training to the church and this is devastating to democracy and liberty, and is bringing us to a police state, while our prisons and jail are bankrupting us, and mass murders keep popping up. People doing anything at all, without good moral judgment is not a good idea, and leaving training for moral judgment to the church is a very bad idea. Can we connect this thread with the Texas Republican agenda for 2012? Intellectually there is a connection. Texas does not have a good record when it comes to racial relationship, and is known for the "good old boy" tradition. Maybe it was Nietzsche's sister to wrote "Will to Power", that does not change the impact of this book. Maybe the book should come with a warning that his sister wrote it? Yes, the eugenics movement started in the US, and a US author also wrote a "Will to Power" book. There are many parallels between the US and Germany, and this has something to do with why I open these topics. The one thing that the US separated from Germany, was a culture transmitted through liberal education. That is education for independent thinking and good moral judgment. It is education for civic and political leadership, and it is different from the hierarchy of military order. Germany was a Christian Republic, although Prussia used military order to organize it and we adopted this model of bureaucracy during the Roosevelt years. PLEASE PAY ATTENTION TO THE FACT THAT PRUSSIA CENTRALIZED GERMANY'S EDUCATION AND DESTROY GERMANY HEROES, AND ALMOST MADE A GOD OF EFFICIENCY. When the US adopted Germany's model of education for technology, it did the same. Destroying national heroes and praising efficiency is about political take over. The US was a leader in the sciences and technology before education for technology, and the US culture was always driven by a will to power. The change in education is has cultural and political ramifications, and the Bush family loved calling this the New World Order. Oh my god, I am not sure what mean, but one possible interpretation is very funny. Not checking out the documents in the library because you are a Beaver, is also funny. It is wonderful to start my day with laughter. Yours is the post I most wanted to read, and I am out of time. Hang in there. I will pay attention to the details as soon as possible. But if you could join at the U of O library, we could look at the documents created during the Eisenhower years. If people would get the New World Order and Eisenhower's explanation of the Military Industrial Complex, are one and the same, things would go much better. During the Eisenhower years, government created new connections with research and media. Will you elect someone to visit with me and examine the documents, and come back to report to you? I will provide housing and meals, and throw in $20 for transportation. Obviously you all are not trusting me, so give me someone you do trust.

I have not read this thread, but obviously people who don't want to pay taxes should not go to war, and should not troops stationed around the world, and should not be investing millions of dollars in foreign countries, without paying attention to how that money is spent.

Oh my goodness sake. If I could take you to the U of O library we could look at the Abtracts, you know what they are right? If not hear is a wikipedia explanation http://en.wikipedia....ding_of_science Now when Reagan took office research on poverty is completely replaced with research on welfare fraud. It is such a complete change in research that we know it wasn't truly scientific, but research done for a purpose. When enough research was done, the media was screaming about welfare fraud. This is during a recession, right, when young families needed the help most. I don't know about other states, but Oregon cut welfare to two parent families and fathers had to dessert their families so they could get help. This sky rocketed unwed pregnancies. It also made these young men who took to the hills less employable. To add to our troubles, we were blaming the poor for our bad economy, unlike this time around, when we are blaming bankers, however, there was the same crash of real estate prices and people who had bought things like hotels at the inflated price went bankrupt. We were in disbelief about the recession causing homelessness, because Reagan denied their existence and said they were was just bums, as I was frantically trying to help for homeless single mothers. Anyone out of work for over 6 months could just forget about getting work, because with all the lies, employers thought, anyone out of work for that long was not serious about getting a job. Eugene, Oregon was very resistant to helping the poor and the homeless. It used federal grant money for the poor to renovate private business property, such as the historic buildings downtown that house such businesses as the Eugene Athletic Club that caters to the rich. The idea was to give our downtown a look of wealth. Soon after it went into business, it forced out the plasma donation center across the street, that brought a lot money into town, and put it is desperate people's pockets. The rich were offended by the sight of the poor people. The rich we able to benefit from the money designated to the poor, by claiming it would give the poor jobs. When I argued with city counselors for a homeless shelter, I was told voters rather have a public golf course then a shelter for the poor. I was an advocate for the homeless at the time, and am glad to say, because of the pressure we able to create, business people put their heads together and got a lot going for the homeless. I don't remember any golf course being built. My point is between Reagan and the downtown property owners local political power, we have nasty discrimination against the poor, and money favors those in power. I don't know exactly how to validate all of this, next to taking you to the U of O library where between the abstracts and newspaper collection, I can lead you to all the validation you want. Now shall we talk about all the cities that exist because of a federally funded business? My father worked for NASA, and consulted on Star Wars. Hum, how do I explain this? The Military Industrial Complex of which Eisenhower spoke, consumes huge amounts of federal money and provides high paying employment in many cities. Cuts to these programs can be devastating to the communities that are supported by them. These scientist can not easily get jobs in their communities when their research project is shut down and they have to move to the few places where their expertise is needed. We have to keep weapons plants going to keep communities going, and the money spent on aircraft and weapons research and building is a vital part of our economy. Now any political party that can keep this going will get votes and the ones who fail, loose votes. Really you question if this involves political interest? Have you made an effort to understand what Eisenhower was talking about when he warned of the Military Industrial Complex that his administration put into place? Your research might be transparent, but do the citizens care enough to pay attention? For sure, in the US they do not! I have gotten the impression Europeans pay more attention to politics than US citizens. Perhaps that is because the size of the US makes politics a bit overwhelming. People hear don't know what the federal government is funding, unless it is in their backyard, or they have some special interest involved in the research. Liberal education, lead people to believe they needed to knowledgeable in all things, but even more so than in Germany, education for technology has specialized everyone, and the political ramifications of this are huge. I would bet the average citizen does not know what the Abstracts are. We are limited to an interest in our own lives, and when it comes to politics, that again is a personal matter, as most of know nothing about life outside our own experience of it. Tocqueville was very right about this problem, when he wrote "Democracy in America" in 1830. Until Bush, the invasion of Iraq and the economy going belly up, most people just voted their party ticket without thinking. Republican neocon's hit the Republican party hard, kind of like Protestantism busting up the church. The point is, we really don't pay a lot of attention to anything that is not in our face and does not personally effect us. Thank goodness! Yes, the public broadcasting philosophy show made a mistake. I owe you a million thank you's because your questions are firming up the issues in my mind, and this is what I have wanted all along. My concern about Nietzsche comes from Charles Sarolea's 1912 book "The Anglo-German". Sarolea writes a chapter on following Caesar verses following Christ. Caesar is about state power. Christianity is about love, forgiveness, charity, etc., etc.. Nietzsche is, the will to power, and he strongly opposes Christianity as something that makes humans weak, and something that leads them to work against their self interest. I will say this is a limited idea of self interest, and the classical philosophers and concept of God, makes this clear. Now my dear Mooeypoo, this gets very complicated, so perhaps you can understand how important your questions to helping me get all this in the right order, after many years of contemplating it. Christianity without education for democracy is not the same thing. Education for democracy is literacy in the Greek and Rome classics and education for citizenship, leadership, the higher order thinking skills, that gives a person a different understanding of God. My thread "Why God" failed because these principles are not understood, and I realized the discussion about God I hoped to have, could not happen without discussion of education and the higher thinking skills, and I can understand why this seen as derailing the thread, but can you see how this understanding is important to discussions about God? To clarify what Nietzsche has to do with this, is kind of like explaining what is wrong with Freud's culturally limited understanding of women. Following the 30 years war, Prussia took control of Germany, centralized education and focused it on technology for military and industrial purpose, leaving moral to the church. Now we have several materialistic philosophers and developing science that moves from believing science will reveal God, to science shouldn't even get involved with God question, and Nietzsche's popularity under the Prussians who lived for a love of military might. Chew my nails, is this explanation getting better or worse? Democracy begins with a concept of logos and a philosophy examining the Laws of Nature, and trying to understand God (logos) by learning from nature and inferring something about God. Logos is reason, the controlling force of the universe, and even the gods are subject to reason, the Laws of Nature. See? There is nothing supernatural about this God. This is not revealed religion with gods and angels telling humans how to live. There is not mythology that goes with this understanding of God. Actually it is what killed the power of Greek and Roman mythology, which was the religion of the day. Socrates is order to drink hemlock for causing youth to question the truth of the gods. He accepted the value of having gods, but asked people to be more careful about the stories of the gods that they tell, because a adulterous god, Zeus, is not a good god. It is the same problem we have with the God of Abraham. If you give people a false god, sooner or later the people will realize a problem with the god. The god of Cicero and Thomas Jefferson and classical philosophy is unknown. It is logos, the reason of all things, universal truth. Too many words, sorry- it matters if we live for God or live for Caesar. Jesus said, "you don't know what power is". Jesus is the work of Greeks, the master mythology writers. If you believe Caesar represents power, or Hitler, or Bush doing the will of God, etc...., you are not getting logos, the real power. Democracy is about understanding logos and rule by reason. Back to Nietzsche, and all the modern philosophers, they are working with a Christian definition of God. How hard is it to argue this is not a true god? They had knowledge of the classics, but still allowed Christianity to define God! The problem for me is if we let Jews, Christians, Muslims define God, we get a false God and start bashing each others beliefs, and do not carry on what the Athenians began. Democracy is potentially the path to resolving all human problems, more so than science without God, because it includes human nature and concepts of morality, it is humanism and politics. Democracy is reason, logos, the cause of all things, science, and human relationships. Reality is about more than matter. We can make bombs, or use our resources to advance civilization by educating the people for this purpose. Caesar or Christ? Bottom line, it matters which philosophers you think are important. What leads us to be like Germany is education for technology for military and industrial purpose, and leaving moral training to the church, and changing the philosophers. How we teach our young to use their minds is different. We stopped transmitting the culture that made us the democracy we defended in two world wars. Only when democracy is defended in the classroom, is it defended. Our children are learning the technological skills of reading, but not the meaning of all those words which are dependent on understanding the culture, such as logos is not a Christian word, but a word from Greek philosophy. Our Statue of Liberty, Lady of Justice and Spirit of America, are the three aspects of Athena, Athens patron goddess of liberty, justice and defense. There is a mural of the Roman gods who make democracy strong, in the Capital Building of the US. Our democracy is tied to the gods. Christians successfully killed our knowledge of this, because they opposed those pagan gods, however, Liberal education transmitted this knowledge but in disguise form. When we replaced liberal education with education for technology, we stopped educating for democracy and we are in deep trouble! This is what we defended our democracy against. Tooooo many words, sorry.

I believe I said I am correcting the Public Broadcasting show. It was a philosophy show about humanism. Atheist were arguing all we need is science, and unfortunately, this argument assumes we are naturally good. We are not naturally good or bad, and I am working on an explanation so don't expect it now. What is important here, is someone referred to NAZI Germany as example of what happens when we only have science and they said Hitler used science. The link makes it clear, Hitler did not use science. Hitler actually opposed science and reason, and promised every magic! We have changed education is such away that tends to make people reactionary. That is responding to a word, and not the meaning of what is being said. For this reason candidates try to demonize each other. As soon people believe they had identified the bad guy and the good guy, the contest is over. We now have reactionary politics and the power struggles are not how democracy works, but congress has a hard time getting anything done. When people get like this, they look for a powerful leader who can get things done. Commentators are questioning if Romney is a strong enough man to be president. The terrible wars are fought, because a leader thinks s/he has to prove s/he is strong enough to rule. This is not how self governing people should be governing themselves, but Bush senior and Bush Junior alined themselves with the power of the New World Order and the power of God, "the Power and Glory" tied to the bombing of Iran. And it seems we all love witch hunts. People seem to enjoy identifying witches and throwing stones at them. As soon as someone is suspect of being a witch the inquisition begins. This is done with questions to trap the witch, and the problem here is ignoring all the information that is not useful to the fun game of finding witches and throwing stones at them. The word can be God or NAZI. I suppose there are others. The person trying to discuss these important topics is like an animal caught a tar pit, because no one is trying to understand what is being said, they are trying to score points by throwing the stone that kills the beast. However, the word God had a different meaning when we had liberal education, and our reaction to it was different. There is a very important cultural difference here, and it is directly related to the change in education. Germans had a huge God problem. We begin with excitement about science revealing God and come to the decision that science can nothing to do with God. If you study classical philosophy you know, science and God together, and this does not mean the God of Abraham. If you replace classical philosophy with German philosophy than the only understanding of God is the God of Abraham, and Christianity is the enemy. Sorry, my granddaughter in on her way, and I have cut this short. The Germany philosophy, God of Abraham line is big trouble. rushing along--- Public education is an institution. It is like a genii in a bottle. The defined purpose is the wish and the students are the genii. We changed that wish in 1958. We replaced our liberal education with Germany's education for technology. We stopped transmitting our culture, and began educating for a technological society with unknown values. This change in education manifest a very different culture, and it is not the one defended in two world wars. What goes with this Prussian military bureaucracy applied to citizens. That is what makes Social Security and Worker's Compensation possible. If everyone understood how our government was organized before adopting the Prussian military model, they would be in shock and wonder how in the world we managed government! How do I explain this to people who have absolutely no interest in the very dry subject of government organization? Think military order. It is a hierarchy of authority. Those at the top make policy and decisions, and those at the bottom just follow orders. Information can go up, but power does not go down. Germany was so organized, and they were a Christian Republic with some democracy, however, it doesn't matter who elect to be dog catcher, or if gays have rights, or even if abortion is legal or not. None of this has anything to do with truly political issue that makes a nation place in the world. It is the same thing the US had and it is not, so today we can have the same thing and not notice a difference, except now we have government problems that could not have before. Before this change family law was strong, and it made family responsible for family, and there were no government assistance programs. Now a 16 year can tell his/her parents to go fly a kite, and become a parent with no job to support self or child and get government assistance. It is the government who has authority, not the parent. Mind you this is a rushed explanation, and I hope before rushing into an argument, you think about what is being said.

I am not sure you understand what I said. Do you think I said Hitler used science and did not use religion? What do you think is my leap in logic? Are you arguing colleges have not replaced classical philosophy with German philosophy? Are you arguing Nietzsche and Hegel were not influential in the development of NAZI Germany? Are you arguing, adopting German institutions, specifically the bureaucracy for government, and the education that goes with it, does not make the US like the Germany we defeated? Then what is the point of adopting their institutions? This is like saying Imitating a famous rock star, does not make a person a rock musician, because so and so isn't doing drugs and rock stars do drugs. How do I say, the prejudice against Jews and the terrible things done, should not be our whole understanding of NAZI Germany. Being the strongest military force on earth is different from Hitler's New World Order how? Bush was not kidding when bragging of the New World Order, and he was not talking about something different from Hitler's New World Order. They both would have loved control of Baghdad. By imitating Prussian education, philosophy and military bureaucracy applied to citizens, we are on the same path Germany followed, and this is what justified Bush bragging about the New World Order. I am saying, if you use the ingredients for cake and follow the recipe, you get cake. I don't think the problem is my logic. Now an informed argument of what I just said, might begin with what was wrong with our past education, and what was wrong with our bureaucrat organization, and why both needed to be changed, and how imitating our enemy does not make us our enemy. If someone stepped in with that kind of information, and could make that kind of argument, we would have the discussion I would to love to have, instead of me feeling like the target in a rough game of dodge ball, or the witch everyone enjoys burning at the stake. I have been at this for many years, and intimately understand why the Germans could not stop the NAZI machine, and perhaps you check out the increased executive powers of the President if you think our democracy is the same as it was. It was not the government that prevented citizens from stopping the machine, but their own families and friends, who didn't what to hear what they were saying, as father refused to listen to my explanation, and would walk out of the room, and all those don't understand the issues, and therefore, take offense and become extremely angry and begin attacking with personal attacks, censorship, bad points. To speak truth a person must be able to endure being hated, and as we know, in NAZI Germany when all else failed the family member, friend, neighbor was reported to the state, and the problem was eliminated. Things are different here how? I am talking the psychology and behavior is different how? We are so fortunate to be born in a country with freedom of speech, but private property law trumps our freedom of speech, and no one seems to question how our freedom is protected if we do not protect it and are not willing to risk everything to protect our freedom of speech, including being silenced permanently. We now agree it is a good thing when someone looses a career because of saying the wrong thing. Must be politically correct you know. Or how about at least likeable? These forums, broadcasting stations, newspapers and magazines are all private property. The rules for private property and not democratic rules. Even the common domain is treated as private property and citizens can not use it unless they can pay a fee, and then their use of it is restricted by law, and my granddaughter is going to court because of being caught up in this fright for the common domain. I am saying, it was culture that made us different, and that is no longer true. If you use cake ingredients and follow the recipe, you get cake. Oh no, I am out of time. Someone who is aware of what is happening?! :DI promise, I will get back to you as soon as possible.

Rising the nasal passages with salinity water can prevent viruses that cause disease from multiplying enough to make us sick. The viruses get sticky in cold weather, and this is why we are more apt to get colds and the flu in cold weather. Flushing them out before they can embed themselves can prevent a problem from developing. But inside the ear? I don't think you can flush that so well. However, you might want to gargle and clean nasal passages, as well as clean the ear? I remember as a kid, someone resolved my ear arch problem by making a tiny plastic bag of salt and heating it, and then putting it in my ear. Heat is also good at destroying viruses. Give your ear a localized fever. Next time wear ear plugs when you go swimming.

I would bet my bank account that the biblical stories, especially the story of Eden and the flood, are translated Sumerian stories, and that understanding the story as recorded history will unlock the mystery of what is happening to the planet today. Geologist believe they have found the 4 rivers of Eden. This would be in the area of Iran. We might consider what might happen that would cause all four rivers to flood, and what this experience would be for anyone living this valley with flood waters coming every direction. There is no place to run. It would be like being a bath tub and the water keeps rising. As the comedian Bill Cosby would asked, "How long can you tread water?". Shall we look at the original story for clues? This naughty river ate a goddess's plants. In other words, it flooded. The goddess was furious with the river and order that it should die. The river was almost dead, when a clever fox convinced the goddess to let the river live. Remember in another time, people did not make the distinctions of living things and non living things that we do. They did not have the language for making such distinctions and catagorizing things, which must occur before there can be science. Anyway, the goddess and several other goddesses heal the river. One of the goddess specializes in healing ribs. She is the goddess of the "lady of rib" and the "lady who makes live". That is, she is Eve, the "lady who makes live", who was made from a rib. when the story was translated, some adjustments had to be made, so a story of many gods and be a story of one god. So now the river is healed, and life returns to the valley and we get Eden and Adam. In cuneiform Eden means "uncultivated plain" and Adam means "settlement on the plain". The story is telling us of climate change, a flood, and then very long dry spell that is so severe it dried up the rivers, and then a return to normal climate and life in the valley. If we treat the story as recorded history, we may unlock the mystery of what is happening to us today. Geologist have found evidence of the whole story, but they are not climatologist.