Athena

I hope sooner or later, the importance of understanding of the history of education is understood. People are working with so much misinformation, they can not be blamed for what popular talk has lead them to believe, but making judgments without being being well informed about what one is judging is being "reactionary". The comparisons with Hitler's Germany need to be taken seriously, because the US adopted the German model of bureaucracy that shifts power from the individual to the state, and also the model of education that goes with this. Judging what I have just said, without a good understand of the these models and the social and political ramifications of the change, is reactionary. Critical thinking, of which these forums pride themselves, requires asking questions. Hitler opposed this. Hitler, attracted people who love power and had no fear of abusing it. The US focused philosophy on the Greek and Roman philosophers. The democracy of the US was built on these philosophers. However, when the US adopted German institutional models, the colleges replaced the Greek and Roman philosophers with German Philosophers. Nietzsche was very popular as Germany mobilized for the first world war, and remained popular when Hitler seem to embrace his philosophy and opposed the restraints of reason, while promoting being brutish and strong willed. We like to pride ourselves with the belief that what happened in Germany would never happen here, but some of us believe the dude that dressed up like the joker and killed all those people in the theater, is an expression of a social problem. My local newspaper questioned the cultural causes of such behavior, and the movie industry that seems obsessed with such movies and produces few feel good movies. We have had a cultural change and Charles Sarolea book "The Anglo-German Problem" written in 1912, explaining how the Prussians centralized public education, and destroyed Germany's heroes, seems to explain the cultural change we have experienced. Richard M. Brickner, M.D. wrote "Is Germany Incurable" in 1943 when the world was dealing with the second world war. He describes Germany as paranoid, and defines paranoia as an excessive need to be superior and in control. Compared to the culture we had when had liberal education, we are very paranoid today. Not just paranoid, but we have the highest rate of violent crime of any modern nation. I am trying to remember another word used for this change, it means dark, depressed spirited, demoralized. People who feel personally weak, seem to like strong authority to protect them. This is in extreme contrast to the high spirited feelings we had when Louis Pasteur made milk safe for children, and everyone celebrated all the children's that would be saved. My goodness, we have gone through a very exciting period of history when we first began to marvel at the wonders of science and dream of what technology would do for us. I think many here assume I am opposed to technology because I have written so much about against education for technology, replacing liberal education, but I collect old books, and live with the excitement of people when Newton proved the universe is ordered and somehow Christianity embraced the ordered universe, and the idea that science was proving God exist. When I read of the thrill of new truths revealed by science and advances made and possible in the future, I experience the joy of this science. I was born crippled, and three times advancing medicine has given me the ability to walk. It is like being given a new life each time I regain the ability to walk. But the spirit of our nation troubles me. The unrealistic expectations trouble me, and the comparisons with Germany trouble me. It is a huge break through to me, to learn Hitler opposed reason, but look what is happening in the forums. At least twice I have faced mod action, that was taken without the mod carefully reading. This is "reactionary". I have gotten many bad points from people who have made no argument. This is "reactionary". Everyone here might value freedoms and independent thinking, but "they are being reactionary" and are hitting without reasoning. This is a cultural change from the days we had liberal education. Our education was modeled after ancient Athens and Roman and is now modeled after German education for technology, and this has manifested a profoundly different culture, with social and political ramifications. People here and now are hitting me without reasoning with me, and I am not the only one experiencing this problem. I assume I am not suppose to talk of such things, because this is my agenda. Should I stop thinking, and give up all effort to have a meaningful life, and just think about the physical experience of happiness and being liked? When Cicero and Jefferson wrote of the pursuit of happiness, they were speaking of the intellectual pursuit of happiness, and this was directly tied to having good moral judgment, but not tied to religion, and it is the foundation of the culture we once had. Who understands any of this today? As I experience this problem, I keep looking for information to understand the problem, and articulate it better. The philosophy show was wrong to suggest our problem, and apparent moral chaos is the fault of science. The problem is not our love of science, but the lack of liberal education. Liberal education liberates the mind, and because the issue came up on philosophy program, and they wrongly said Hitler's highly valued science, suggesting it is atheism and a focus on science that is causes social problems, we need to understand the problem is not science, and it is not failing to be religious, but a lack of liberal education. When we stopped transmitting our culture, we created a communication problem. We are speaking English, but we do not share the same meanings. I hope, I am allowed to stay in the forum long enough for people to get I do not mean what they think I mean, and am not the bed guy they think I am, but we have a serious communication problems, because we no longer share meanings and the same reasoning we were once taught, such as the meaning of the pursuit of happiness and its tie to morality without religion. Thank you for the information! However, I want to add to this, in the US we have stressed the will to power also. Oh my, I am having a huge realization. I have a very old about the will to power book, written in the US, that I need to find and check the date. I think it comes up at the same time science and technology is promising us great things. This goes with a newer book 1988, I just began reading, and how educating for the will of power, plays into the conflict over education, and also our thoughts about greed and capitalism. There is also Christianity. The Protestant work ethic is great for capitalism, and comes from Germany, the Holy Roman Empire, but it is also attached to Martin Luther's interpretation of the bible, and firm belief that God ordains who will be masters and who will servants, which is attached to our ideas of who is deserving and who is not, and justifications for exploiting people. In our past, government has used religion to make the poor content with their poverty. Religiously, we are to obey and work hard and to accept our poverty because Jesus was poor and this is a good thing. Nietzsche opposed this. Hitler also opposed this reasoning and the suppression of the will to power, and doesn't Ayn Rand also glorify the will to power? Aren't our young quite sure they are superior? There appears to be some conflicts here and I my brain is melting down. On the one hand a will to power is a good thing, but on the other hand, it can turn very bad.

Okay, will independents do as as the moderate wing? I think people register as independents because they take pride in thinking for themselves. The problem with being an independent is you don't get to vote in primary elections. As was pointed out in another thread, the species that uses language (humans) is an abstract thinker. From the first time a cave man painted a picture a wall, this was an expression of abstract thinking. However, there are various abstract thinking skills. At the lower level, people willingly follow religious despots and do not question what everyone believes is true. Look at the Lion King movie, where all are dependent on a lion king. That is what most people want. They may reduce their political thinking to who is in favor of abortion and who is not. Who is right or who is left. Are just vote a party ticket with no thinking at all, because 200 years ago the leaders of this party were in the right. There has been a fight over public education since 1893, one side wanting to teach people what to think and the other side wanting to teach them how to think. Yes, it is all abstract thinking, but those who are in favor of teaching our young how to think, teach the higher order abstract thinking skills. A person can become an engineer without much higher order thinking skills, but will not be a really good one. Get it? There are different levels of thinking skills, and for many reasons, like religion or budget cuts, children can learn technical skills without learning independent thinking skills. The fight is over the dangers of teaching children to think for themselves. In many school districts there is no fight, because the budget cuts have reduced education to the bare bones of learning technological skills. This is devastating to our country, and I can't talk it about here without a mod who understands nothing of the issue and what is at stake. threatening me about promoting my own agenda, and a many more jumping in to give me bad points. Must not mess with the accepted dogma, you know. If nothing else, it is bad for ones popularity to say things that the in crowd does not agree with, or to criticize the wrong people. You all can take this personally, or politically. I hope you understand the political meaning of what I am saying, because this is the important level of understanding, and today's politics is an expression of what happens when we function at this lower, reactionary level. I will leave it at, there are different levels of thinking, and reasons for many children are not learning the higher order skills. It is the Texas Republican agenda to prevent young children being taught to think for themselves, and questioning what their parents believe, but as long they don't mention God, those children should grow up to do well in these forums, they will not challenge authority nor question the dogma, and therefore, should be popular and avoid any problems.

I am blown away by the censorship in the forum. I have a message apologizing for a warning and an explanation from the mod that the action was taken without reading carefully. I think that just happened again, only instead of a warning the thread about Hitler and science, correcting a public broadcasting show last night, was closed. There could not be a worse offense to the very reason for our protected freedom of speech, than this kind of censorship. This kind of censorship is exactly what is raising alarm across the nation, in discussions shows, and has focused me on concerns about morality, social change and politics. The censorship is being done by those who do not know the subjects and occasionally by those who do not even carefully read what a discussion is about. This is called "reactionary". It is not equal to critical thinking and reasoning. If nothing else, I hope you all take a good look at the censorship and question if this where you want to take us?

http://books.google....science&f=false Last night I listened to a philosophical OPB radio show about humanism, and it was said Hitler's Germany was focused on science. This was used as an argument that just science is not enough. However, this morning I googled for information and yes, the Germans were focused on science for technology, but Hitler opposed science and reason! I want to set the record straight. Nietzsche was very popular in Germany and had a strong influence on Germany. We might ask why he was so popular? He opposed religion and seemed to favor strong willed people taking what they want. It appears Hitler rode on Nietzsche's popularity as some may ride and Ayn Rand's popularity. Colleges in the US have replaced classical philosophers with German ones and Nietsche is very popular in the US too. But may be if there is a strong preference for science and reason we will be okay, even though our economy appears to going the way of Germany's economy?

Man, I don't want to take this off topic, but what is this left wing stuff? There has been an on going war over education since 1893 and I am struggling to figure out who is right and who is wrong. I think making Christianity the power behind our culture and civilization is a mistake, and that is surely what many Republicans are doing. On the other hand, Christianity is not all bad, and it is mistake to throughout the good with the bad. Mythologies have been behind the development of civilizations since the beginning of civilizations, and these seem to come to power struggles. The mythology behind democracy is the Greek gods, and is an imitation of them. Whereas, Christianity is about one god with favorite people, and inherited power, and it is all tangled up with Hellenism, and earning ones position on merit. This is mixed with the right to exploit people or the need for government to protect individual rights including the right to a decent life. Athens created government jobs, so people could earn a decent wage and have the time and energy to participate in government, and Jews fought a terrible war with the Greeks because of this merit hiring that messed up their hierarchy of inherited power. Is God favoring people or does wealth and power have something to do with their social organization and perhaps protecting property rights, more than human rights? What is the role of government? What is right or left? I really don't know. I think we must have rule by reason, but people keep saying this isn't what democracy is about, so I am really confused. But for sure, I do not like the Christian agenda that attacks the development of our ability to reason, and forces an unbelievable God on everyone, preventing us from understanding democracy is rule by reason. Reason says problems are caused by ignoring the needs all those who need economic opportunity, because doing so would reduce the wealth of those in power. Conservatives present this as a battle over the commons, and in Eugene, Oregon they have won, and have a down town exclusion zone, where those in power can exclude those do not want in the down town, including preventing St. Vincent de Paul from purchasing a building and operating a business that would attract undesirable people, the poor. I think Obama is right, that it is the president's job to consider the need of everyone's economic opportunity. A few getting rich, by excluding others, and by sending industry to China, or investing over seas, as the Christian evangelist Pat Robinson advised his flock to do, while the rest of us are paying taxes to protect this over seas economic interest, burns my soul. Right - left?

Everyone was not as well educated as Jefferson. Those who were considered literate were literate in Greek and Roman classics. Cicero, the Roman statesman who was devoted to defending Rome's democracy, was a must read for anyone interested in politics, but I am not sure George Washington paid as much attention to education as did Ben Franklin and Jefferson. I think Washington was a more practical man, than an intellectual one. However, Washington and many others were Masons, and this was very important to their understand of life. Washington D.C. was designed by the Masons using astronomically figured location of buildings and dates of construction. They worked with the hope of a New Age, when education would enlighten all men, and they greatly admired Egypt, the Greeks and Rome. Washington was favored because of his physical attractiveness as a tall man who naturally was highly respected, but he was not the most learned. It was a Scotsman who was most responsible Jefferson's education, and it is the culture of the Scots that has particular importance in shaping the man that Jefferson was to become. Jefferson had a large library, and traveled the world collecting useful plants and experimenting with the growing of them on his plantation, contributing much to knowledge of growing food. He was devoted to developing public schools, and I think among Jefferson's most important quotes are the one's on education. Quotations on Education 1782. (Notes on the State of Virginia) "Every government degenerates when trusted to the rulers of the people alone. The people themselves, therefore, are its only safe depositories. And to render them safe, their minds must be improved to a certain degree." 1785 August 19. (to Peter Carr) "An honest heart being the first blessing, a knowing head is the second."[1] 1786 August 13. (to George Wythe) "I think by far the most important bill in our whole code is that for the diffusion of knowledge among the people. No other sure foundation can be devised, for the preservation of freedom and happiness...Preach, my dear Sir, a crusade against ignorance; establish & improve the law for educating the common people. Let our countrymen know that the people alone can protect us against these evils [tyranny, oppression, etc.] and that the tax which will be paid for this purpose is not more than the thousandth part of what will be paid to kings, priests and nobles who will rise up among us if we leave the people in ignorance."[2] 1786 August 27. (to Thomas Mann Randolph) "Knowledge indeed is a desirable, a lovely possession."[3] 1787 December 20. (to James Madison) "Above all things I hope the education of the common people will be attended to ; convinced that on their good sense we may rely with the most security for the preservation of a due degree of liberty."[4] 1789 January 8. (to Richard Price) "...wherever the people are well informed they can be trusted with their own government..."[5] 1810 May 6. (to the Trustees of the Lottery for East Tennessee College) "No one more sincerely wishes the spread of information among mankind than I do, and none has greater confidence in it's effect towards supporting free & good government."[6] 1816 January 6. (to Charles Yancey) "If a nation expects to be ignorant & free, in a state of civilisation, it expects what never was & never will be."[7] 1816 April 24. (to Dupont de Nemours) "Enlighten the people generally, and tyranny and oppressions of body and mind will vanish like evil spirits at the dawn of day . . . . I believe it [human condition] susceptible of much improvement, and most of all, in matters of government and religion; and that the diffusion of knowledge among the people is to be the instrument by which it is effected."[8] 1818 January 14. (to Joseph C. Cabell) "Now let us see what the present primary schools cost us, on the supposition that all the children of 10. 11. & 12. years old are, as they ought to be, at school: and, if they are not, so much the work is the system; for they will be untaught, and their ignorance & vices will, in future life cost us much dearer in their consequences, than it would have done, in their correction, by a good education."[9] 1818 January 14. (to Joseph C. Cabell) "A system of general instruction, which shall reach every description of our citizens from the richest to the poorest, as it was the earliest, so will it be the latest, of all the public concerns in which I shall permit myself to take an interest."[10] 1818 August 4. "The objects of this primary eduction [university education] determine its character and limits. These objects are To give to every citizen the information he needs for the transaction of his own business; To enable him to calculate for himself, and to express and preserve his ideas, his contracts and accounts, in writing; To improve by reading, his morals and faculties; To understand his duties to his neighbors and country, and to discharge with competence the functions confided to him by either; To know his rights; to exercise with order and justice those he retains; to choose with discretion the fiduciary of those he delegates; and to notice their conduct with diligence, with candor and judgement; And, in general, to observe with intelligence and faithfulness all the social relations under which he shall be placed. To instruct the mass of our citizens in these, their rights, interests and duties, as men and citizens, being then the objects of education in the primary schools, whether privet or public, in them should be taught reading, writing and numerical arithmetic, the elements of mensuration...and the outlines of geography and history."[11] 1820 September 28. (to William C. Jarvis) "I know no safe depository of the ultimate powers of the society, but the people themselves: and if we think them not enlightened enough to exercise their controul with a wholsome discretion, the remedy is, not to take it from them, but to inform their discretion by education. this is the true corrective of abuses of constitutional power."[12] 1822 October 21. (to C.C. Blatchly) "I look to the diffusion of light and education as the resource to be relied on for ameliorating the condition, promoting the virtue, and advancing the happiness of man."[13] 1824 March 27. (to Edward Everett) "The qualifications for self-government in society are not innate. They are the result of habit and long training."[14] http://www.monticell...tions-education "The Laws of Nature and Nature's God", comes from Cicero. Understanding what this means is perhaps the most part of understanding Jefferson's defense of democracy, as it goes with the reasoning that we are capable of reason and therefore capable of governing ourselves by reason. However, this does not stand alone with Cicero and Jefferson, but was also a principle of native American federation, that we are beings of reason and capable of living by reason. It was believed a great spirit teacher had taught them reason is the way of peace.

Can we be clear on the Texas Republican position? http://articles.bost...elligent-design This is about the Republican Party's efforts to assure schools teach creationism as science. It was a nation wide controversy because Texas buys so many text books, text book makers cater to the Texas market. We might call this culture wars. It also involves laws regarding abortion based on an interpretation of the bible. But it does not stop here, because religion is autocratic, not democratic. It declares the man is the head of the household, and gives men a jealous, revengeful and fearsome God as a remodel. This God rewards humans who please him and punishes humans who do not. Romney going to Israel and commenting about the difference culture makes, slamming the Palestinians, looks like potential trouble to me. The last thing we need is adding religious prejudices to our politics and the situation in the mid east. Going from Bush and the biblical references such as the "Power and Glory" when we invade Iraq, to Romney kissing up to Israel, may be like playing with dynamite. The man is Mormon, and someone with these beliefs, who acts on them as Romney just did, might not be a good thing.

Whoops, I responded. before reading I am not to respond. Best I can do is delete and explain. Sorry

This comes from a Wikipedia explanation of Higher Order Thinking Skills, and is about education for abstract thinking that opens a person mind and prepares a person for independent thinking. This Christian Republican stand against this education for independent thinking is also the strong Christian opposition to John Dewey. I am bringing him into this debate, so there is a better understanding of what the Republican stand is about. Here is an explanation of how John Dewey overcame Christian opposition, but he did not win the hearts of many Christians who absolutely hated him and the result of education for independent thinking. http://quidditycirce.wordpress.com/2007/11/14/how-dewey-has-overcome-american-christianity-and-overthrown-america/ Are in favor of the Texas Republican agenda or against it?

No you are not thinking through the complex complexes, and it appears you are not even trying to understand higher order abstract thinking. Whatever, I vote we close this thread and move to politics and the 1012 Texas Republican agenda. Because what I have to say there is a fight to stop church control of our minds, maybe it will go better in this forum. What happened to Muslim culture could happen to our own, if the Christians maintain control of education.

Before I can be judged be as wrong, isn't it a requirement to understand what I am saying? And then the argument follows, "you said this__________" and disagree with it because___________. I did not read one book on Germany and one book about the Greeks, but studied the history of education, and the history of Germany because we imitated what the Prussians did to Germany for military reasons, and have so changed our culture, we are not the democracy we defended in two world war. Please, if you disagree with what I am saying, clarify what you disagree with and why you disagree. The US had liberal education and this was all about preparing youth for citizenship, as was the purpose of education in Athens and Roman. Now Sparta another Greek city state, had a very different education that prepared all to serve their socialist/military city state. The huge difference between these education purpose is individual verses behaving like an ant colony, and liberty. Liberal education liberates the mind and the people. Education for technology does not. However, within our education for technology, there are pockets of education for abstract thinking. The battle is intense, especially in Texas where the Republican party is organized to prevent teaching the higher order of abstract thinking. What do you think of the Republic agenda in Texas? Modern education includes pockets of Abstract thinking. There is an intense war going on between those who believe abstract thinking is vital to the health our country and those who think it is the destruction of our country. What do you think of the Texas Republican Republic agenda? How about the battle between John Dewey and the Christians? Do you understand liberal education is about liberating our minds and having a tolerant and charitable culture, verses a materialist and greedy one? Please give me some indication you understand the current the conflict, and how the different educations impact our culture differently. Do you understand what the No Child Left Behind Act has done to education and the intense fight some teachers are having to have control over their classroom and to be creative and to prepare children for something besides passing the test?

This Global Brain might manifest what Cicero believed should be our goal, to know truth. As Cicero understood this, truth would put an end to our conflicts, and what is law in Athens would also be law in Rome, because all would understand the reasoning of the law. This is what Jefferson was referring to when he wrote the Declaration of Independence and of the Laws and Nature and Nature's God. We come to that truth through experience and reasoning with each other. The Internet makes this possible so long as we can maintain freedom of speech and avoid authority from limiting our communications, as cultures have always limited our conscious, and some of them having despotic control over what can be discussed or can not. The Internet breaks through these controlling factors.

Good face saving there. And I don't believe for one minute you started with an adequate understanding of abstract thinking, and I question if you really get it now. But you do seem to be making progress. This is my thread begun with an intention, and that intention was to develop an understanding of God as an abstract separate from religion, and what education has to do with a culture based on abstract thinking about God, or a culture that is materialistic and prone to interpreting everything concretely, and having nasty conflicts such as being demonstrated here. Materialistic means believing all things are matter, and therefore what matters most is our immediate happiness. This just is not so, and has caused our nation and the world a lot of trouble. Morale is not matter, but in the past, children learned the Spirit of America is morale, that high spirited feeling we get when we believe we are doing the right thing. They learned we defend our liberty by being good citizens, and conforming to a standard of decency, and making good moral judgments, and that immorality is a matter of ignorance. These concepts are not matter and yet they had a very strong influence on us. They manifested a tolerant and charitable culture that put human dignity first. The concepts went with an abstract understanding of God, separate from the concrete understanding of religion, that people who do not understand abstract thinking, insist on forcing on everyone, either as God that rules or a God that doesn't exist. The problem is concrete thinking verses abstract thinking, and this begins with education. Pay attention to the Texas Republicans platform against teaching higher order thinking skills. This is where you all should be directing your arguments, not me. I am arguing for what you want, and because you don't get that this thread is really unpleasant. This is what Germany did to its culture, and we imitated Germany, and you all just aren't getting it. Because Texas is a large state and buys a lot of text books, so Texas strongly influences how text books are written. Texas wants creationism taught, and would rather evolution not be taught. It is in your best interest that people have a better understanding of abstract thinking verses concrete thinking, and what education has to do with this. Cicero was a Roman statesman. He studied in Athens and during his time Rome worship several gods, that adopted from Greek mythology. He did not accept the current explanation of the gods, but sought truth. For him God is an unknown abstract. This line of reasoning ended the days of believing in many gods, and it can end the days of relying ancient myth to understand the universe. However, arguing there is no god, will not end the mythology unless we take up arms and kill each other. That argument reinforces religious fanatics, and does not result in the better reasoning.

Wait a minute. Why do you think I am making these post? There have been many reasons for educating children throughout history, and the original purpose of free public education in the US was citizenship. It had nothing to do with vocational training, until war demanded young men with technological skills that were not being taught. That is your Vocation Education Act. We were mobilizing for the first world war, and German military technology was far advanced compared to ours. I really hate the tedious chore of quoting from my books, so I won't cover all the speeches about the urgent need to change our education. I will just quote J.A.B. Sinclair, United States Navy, as he addressed the National Education Association in 1917: Sinclair goes on to say we must imitate Germany, but because at the time patriotism was our best defense, we maintained education for citizenship. Liberal education is directly connected to our liberty and this why I write, but if no one pays attention to why liberal education is important, I am wasting my time. Like industry wanted to close our schools saying the war caused a work shortage, and they were not getting their monies worth from education, because they still had to train their employees, who were not getting vocational training. Teachers argued an institution good for making good citizens is good for making patriotic citizens. Public schools were used to mobilize us for both WWI and WII. It was not air warfare and nuclear bombs, that we replaced liberal education, or what Eisenhower called our domestic education, with Germany's model of education for technology, for military and industrial purpose. That is the 1958 National Defense Education Act. This is a real change in the purpose of education, because we stopped transmitting our culture. I was in school when the change was implemented. I remember our teachers walking around as if in a state shock. It was frightening because at the time there was a lot of fear of a nuclear war. Finally, a male teacher explained to us, the purpose of education had been changed, and we were now being prepared for a technological society with unknown values. He encouraged us to think about life with machines doing most the work, and people have more time to do as they please. IQ testing was introduced to help school staff identify those best suited for higher education for military purpose. The IQ testing is limited to the thinking skills necessary for military technology. Those who are better suited for the arts are screwed. They are not getting the education they need to realize their potential. Man I wasn't planning on going here, but our values and how we judge others are so changed. Our culture is radically different, and our politics are now as reactionary as German politics were. We once lived for a love of God, and now we live for the Military, Industrial Complex. Or as Charles Sarolea who wrote in 1912, "The Anglo-German Problem" would say, we are now following Caesar. I studies German because we imitated Germany. Now back to the liberal education- did you read the link I provided? Liberal education strongly focused on preparing everyone for good moral judgment, this was dropped when we replaced liberal education with education for a technological society with unknown values, and left moral training to the church. Now we are in a real mess, because everyone thinks the church is authority on God and morals. It is a mistake to believe I am promoting religion. I am not! I do not think our churches are the best moral authorities. Those who think I am pushing religion, must be skipping over everything I say. If someone thinks I said only Islam holds people back, this person is skimming and not reading what I write, because every religion holds people back. It is insane to attempt to use ancient morality in today's world, because the old books can not answer today's moral questions. Holy books that freeze morality in the time of kings and slaves are not about democracy! I posted a link explaining the spiritual nature of liberal education. Did you read it or anything I have said about moral judgment, and reason, the controlling force of the universe? Like if people don't start getting what I am talking about, I hope you all don't mind if I stop coming back? There is a science and philosophy forum that has been much more enjoyable than this one, and I am having a problem finding enough time for both. I had stopped coming here, but because the other forum helped me developed my thinking I had hope that I found a better way to explain myself, but now, I am thinking the problem is not with my explanations, but the prejudices I face here, and the practice of skimming though want is written, and making an argument without a good understanding of what is being said. I can't resist this wikipedia explanation of higher thinking skills Be careful how you vote. You wouldn't want your children thinking for themselves would you? I don't think you know what higher abstract thinking skills are. Einstein discovered relativity after learning a lot about math. Abstract thinking was not just suddenly discovered all at once, and all humans knew it. It came out of the Greek mind slowly, over a long period of time, and we still work on developing abstract thinking and how to teach it. The Greek achievements came many years after the Sumerian, Babyloian, Egyptian empire golden periods, and only a few people made the discoveries, not your average Joe, and to this day, the average Joe does can not do the higher levels of abstract thinking without education. Do you understand Sumerians, Babylonians and Egyptians did not have higher abstract thinking skills? This is why these cultures were religious despots, while the development of higher abstract thinking skills, made the Greeks secular, and put them on the road to science. Might I point out giving me a bad score is critical all right, but it does not qualify as critical thinking. It is just plain cowardice to give people bad scores and no reasoned argument.

I was rushing yesterday, as usual, and didn't comment about morality. "The Little Red Hen" is moral story, and it has nothing to do with any religion. We strongly favored the Roman take on liberal education, and were preparing everyone for good moral judgment, because only highly moral people can have liberty, and leadership. When we entered the world wars, Germany had the technological leadership, but their people were dependent on orders. Our advantage was our training for independent thinking, and if one of our leaders was taken out another emerged. And please get this, God and morals are not restricted to religion. God is not religion until you attempt to define God. However, God is unknown and because we do not directly experience God, we can not know God. The moment we think we know God, we know God not. However, living for the love of God and truth, makes a very different culture, than the culture we defended we defended our democracy against. The culture we defended our democracy was Christian dominated. Christianity without liberal education is not a good thing, it makes both religious folks and atheist more antagonistic. Athens begins with religion, dumps religion, and later philosophy took up the matter of God and morals, and because only highly moral people can have liberty, this is very important to our liberty. I believe I said we discovered abstract thinking as it came out of math. The Greeks did something with math concepts developed in Egypt, Babylon, and possibly India that moved us from the path of religion, to philosophy, and then science. We should not think of math as Arabic numbers, because this is not how math started. It would be more helpful to think of math as sacred and symbolic of the laws of nature. I sincerely thank you for your argument, as it never entered my mind to go into an explanation of sacred math, and liberal education, and God, but of course, that is so necessary! It pleases me so much how these discussions can unfold when they are not blocked by someone insisting "God doesn't exist", or "if you don't define God you are violating the rules". While technology may be abstract that does not make education for technology- preparation for abstract thinking, nor the democracy we defended in two world wars. Early education was not exactly about the 3 R's but the 3 R's were used to transmit a culture and defend liberty with education. Education for jobs, vocational training, was added to public education in 1917 for military reasons. Before this, education was 100% about good citizenship, just like religion. This of course was a serious problem on many levels. Science was blooming with great promises for our future, and our education for citizenship was not preparing us for the future we so much enjoy today. Heck, we would be feeding our children dirt like the people in Hattie if we had begun preparing for a new reality filled with technology. Our life expectancy would still be age 45, as it was when Social Security was enacted to begin at age 62. The benefit of adding vocational training was huge! However, we maintained liberal education until it was replaced with education for technology in 1958. The benefit of rapidly advancing technology is huge. I hate it when people assume I don't believe that. However, education for a technological society with unknown, came with some problems, because it is too extreme in focusing on technology for military and industrial purpose, and is for too matericalistic. There are two ways to have social control, culture or authority over the people. We stopped transmitting the culture necessary for liberty. Only highly moral people can have liberty, and when people do not understand this, they do not know how to protect our liberty, and their judgment is not so moral. Now we have serious problems on our hands, and we need to put God, non material reality, back into this equation. Reality is not 100% matter. The Spirit of America is morale, that high spirited feeling we get when we believe we are doing the right thing, and that is being destroyed. It is difficult to pick out a concise quote for "The Anglo-Problem" by Charles Sarolea but as our nation moves from movies like like "The King and I" and "Sound of Music" packing the theaters, to Batman packing the theaters, we might want to stop and consider what this education manifested in Germany. Reality is not 100% material. We can have Eden or the strongest military might on earth, liberty, or a police state. Education needs to be about more than specializing humans for a technological society with unknown values, that operates like the Borg of Star Trek. Specialized citizens who can not see the bigger picture, and therefore, do not have good moral judgment, and bring us down. I am horrified by the things we are doing to hold up our banking system! Sacred math, is totally awesome and just as difficult to talk about in these forums as God. To think of math as Arabic numbers, instead of the laws of nature, is kind of like having a super great car and terrible fuel. To behave as though there are no limits because technology will always resolve our problems, is worse than believing in Santa Claus. I noticed you got a point for this statement when your reasoning is in error. I argued your statement and I did not see your rebuttal. If we value truth, obviously when something is wrong bad reasoning it should not good points. Time and again, I have noticed bad reasoning getting good points. Isn't this a problem that should be corrected? What makes humans unique is they can discover truths, and because of our ability to communicate, we can correct each other when our thinking is in error, and we teach what together we believe is true and should be known. I don't think the line to abstract thinking is limited to Socrates, Plato and Aristotle, but obviously your thinking is error when you said, what I said "is demonstrably false", then asked a prejudiced question based on a problematic assumption that shines through your question "who taught it to the first humans?" Perhaps you should have asked, how did they learn this? Perhaps our education needs to include more then technology useful to military and industry?

Hot damn, you said that so well! I wish I had thought to call God a "place holder". Duh, I struggle so hard to say what I mean, and I love it when someone comes along and with the right words. There are plenty of books about the art of war, and I have several of them. War is a fascinating subject. Coming up through the animal kingdom, we are programmed for aggression. Overcoming those aggressive impulses is crossing from animal to human. I have been told writing of NAZI Germany is too distracting, but it is central to my purpose of writing, because we replaced our liberal education with Germany's model of education for technology, and we also adopted the German model of bureaucracy that shifts great power to the state, and crushes individual liberty and power. It is now the state that defines what we shall do or not do. Our nation that lived for the love of God, has forgotten God and is now following Caesar. Hitler's ideal male was a brute, and hopefully the latest football scandal has people questioning the position football has taken in our colleges. The most important thing people of a democracy need to study is public speaking, but what newspaper reports on high school public speaking? What schools even teach public speaking? :oHowever, they do report high school foot ball. A whole section of many newspapers is just for sports, and this might be linked to the rise of testosterone when males watch football. Personally, those Roman solders in their leather and metal uniforms, are very attractive. How do I say? We are programmed for aggression, and debating what is justice is not apt to attract a lot of people. In several years on the internet, I have not found people interested in knowing why the German model of bureaucracy shifts power to the state, and what this has to do with our democracy. Even if we threw all our weapons in the oceans, we would be a military state, not the democracy we were, organized by family order. We send our young to defend democracy in wars, but what does anyone know of it? Not much. (ah, Swansont and Moontanman, I just preached, and this is a thread about God) Excuse me, but what football does you guys, this subject does to me, and that is why I use the name Athena. Seriously, a man running up a hill to kill an enemy could not be more pumped. The democracy we have today, is not the one we defended in two world wars. I hope it is obvious to everyone that liberal education manifest a complete different culture than the one we have now. COMPLETELY DIFFERENT! I find it extremely difficult to communicate with people in these forums, because they just do not have the concepts that are essential to the democracy we were manifesting. Now about football, yes, it is very appealing, even for women it can mean being in the in-crowd, and those board shoulders and tight asses, well.... but we are forgetting the culture that made us a democracy with liberty. The whole feel of being a citizen is very different today, and how can our young know this? Not even my younger sister shares my reasoning about what is most important. Education for technology? That is for slaves, and this is not about science, although education for a technological society with unknown values, rapidly advances technology. But science, that requires abstract thinking and moral considerations. Being a technician requires no more than the technical skill and following orders. We replaced the Conceptual Method with the behaviorist Method, and the Behaviorist Method is also good for training dogs. PS studying music is important to learning math, and it also has a powerful psychological/social impact to start the day with a group song. Education dictated by the limited range of intelligence useful for military purpose, is not fit a civilization, and it cheats millions out of the education they need to realize their potential, and it manifest what we defended our democracy against. Living for a love of God and truth, manifest a very different culture than the one today.

There are many books about education and "Dumbing Down America" is one of the most popular. Follow orders like cogs in a machine. That is what became NAZI Germany, the New World Order, a mass of humanity behaving like army ants. To say we are being dumbed down, assumes we were smarter, and perhaps you have met someone who will say we had 8th grade students who were smarter than our graduates are today? One of the complaints about our world war enemy, was it had a mechanical society. In 1899 Williams James published "Talks to Teachers on Psychology: and to Students on Some of LIfe's Ideals". He wrote of the education we adopted in 1958 and he was not favorable. At the other extreme of our present education for technology is John Dewey and his explanation of preparing individuals for independent thinking. And whenever, considering this matter, we should think of Thomas Jefferson and his thoughts on what education has to do with a strong republic. Does it help to point out that Germany was the seat of the Holy Roman Empire and the Protestant Reformation? It was not lack of Christianity that made Germany our enemy. Germany was a capitalist republic so those issues were not what made Germany our enemy. But a mechanical state focused on military might to protect its economic interest, defined our enemy. They had centralized education for technology for military and industrial purpose, from the time of Bismark and the Prussian take over of Germany. Concrete thinkers interpret the bible very differently from abstract thinkers, and by the way, the witch hunts began in Germany. The whole battle over if God exist or not, boils up out of concrete thinking, with Christians whose God is very tangible in their minds, pitted against the equally concrete thinkers who insist God doesn't exist. This is a completely different spirit than the spirit that once defined our country, where people were tolerant of different beliefs, and thought religion was a private matter, not a subject for debate. It was not until the Christian right re elected Bush, who used religious mythology to get public approval of his invasion of Iraq and later to be re elected, that I stopped being tolerant of our religious differences, and began arguing against Christian mythology, however, then I became increasing aware of why we need God, so now both sides throw stones at me, for saying there is a God and for saying the mythology that begins with Judaism is not God's truth. This kind of concrete thinking and arguing, is what lead to the 30 Years War that devastated Germany, and resulted in the Prussians taking control. WHAT MADE THE US DIFFERENT WAS LIBERAL EDUCATION AND LEARNING THE HIGHER ABSTRACT THINKING SKILLS AND THE ABILITY TO INTERPRET THE BIBLE ABSTRACTLY. When we interpret the bible abstractly, it doesn't literally say demons make us sick, and we don't count demons as they flee someone's body, but we think of those demons abstractly as fear, anger, grief. There is an important benefit to having an abstract God and thoughts of morals, and I doubt if any civilization can last long without the benefits. I love your smile. I have to walk my dog. If I have the energy when I get back, I will explain liberal education is not about art and education for technology is not about science.

Oh God, how funny! I took the time to check out your link, and those politics are different from the Tea Party and our own politics how? We must have arms and show our strength, and we must not tax for this military expense. You can have your cake and eat it too, if you dare to be strong enough to act on your will. And be strong we must, because our enemies threaten us. Obviously one needs to know something about our humanness, education, culture and politics, to judge if what I am saying is flawed or not. Thank you for raising my awareness of the need for more explanations. Moving along, this explanation of abstract thinking is a good one, although not complete, I see in it a degree of explaining why God, a need to see the bigger picture, is important. I don't know if it will help anyone understand the social and political ramifications of replacing liberal education with education for technology, but I am trying. PS this is how great philosophers, like Socrates and Plato, taught their pupils how to think abstractly. The question of having philosophy kings, is about having people trained for the higher thinking level ruling over us. The difference is very important, and liberal education prepared every child for higher thinking levels.

Thank you Moontanman. Your question is at the center of everything I say. Remember again and again I complaining about replacing liberal education, with the German model of education for technology. I do several forums, so I am not sure if I have said here, liberal education is for free people, and historically, education for technology has been for slaves. Note in the beginning of this thread, I mention chimps can learn our language, and I tell a story of a Bonobo that demonstrates they reason right and wrong and cause and effect. This is a totally fascinating subject, because we kind of put chimps in a crisis when we teach them language and our culture. They can not be safely returned to the wild when we do this. I am saying we are not so different from chimps, however, we can learn the higher abstract thinking skills and this makes us very different from other animals. Learning higher abstract thinking skills or not, is sort of matter of having liberal education or education for technology, you know, that education good for slaves, but not good for self governing people who enjoy liberty. What was so horrifying about NAZI, Germany? A while back I asked if people had seen the movie "The Reader". Maybe I shouldn't even attempt this discussion until everyone has seen that movie? There is another excellent movie that also gets the same point across. The point regards this almost obsessive need to obey the rules, obey the laws. Someone like this is probably not an abstract thinker. The person may be very smart, but they seem almost obsessed with rules and power. This is about how we train people to think. We literally changed how we train people to think when we replaced liberal education with education for technology, and among other things, this leads to reactionary politics. We might call chimp politics, reactionary politics. One of the worst problems in Germany, at least as early as the first world war, was they had reactionary politics. Another problem is paranoia, an individual, or national obsession, with being superior and in control. The cure for these problems is education for abstract thinking and an abstract understanding of God. When I said someone would make a good NAZI, that was not meant to be an insult, but a warning about what we have done to our country and the direction we are going. I don't want this to get too far from science. Here is a link that keeps this discussion in the realm of science. http://www.braintumo...in-anatomy.html The link is about the different parts of the brain that preform the different thinking task. An Olympic champion is exercising different parts of the brain, compared the areas of brain exercised by scientists or poets. You can rapidly advance technology and have a very smart, technological population, and destroy democracy at the same time. We are talking about which areas of the brain we exercise, and how we are taught to use our brains. Like there is no way I can have this discussion with my twenty year old grandchildren! I used to think when we became adults, our thinking improved and I kept waiting for everyone to grow up. When I studied the history of education, I realized this isn't about growing up, but about how we teach the young to use their brains. We are talking the ability to discuss God and morals, and not get hung up on if God exist or not. To say God does not exist may not be technologically correct, because God is not tangible reality. However, to understand the importance of God, is to understand why in math we use X to represent an unknown factor. God, is useful in abstract thinking, and this useful for self governing people who can enjoy liberty. It is learning to be different from the Bonobo who thought biting was a good way to make others do when they were told to do. I want to say, at about the same time its evolution, Athens replaced its liberal education with education for technology, and this leads to the atrophy of a civilization. Like at first, it made it possible for Athens to spread out and control more territory. At the same time Hellenism was being spread, Athens was dying.

Really good. I think when we are confused about what we think, it is a good indication we are really thinking. On the other hand, if a person is absolutely sure of s/he thinks, s/he is a fool. It is not God that is abstracting, but we are. I am bit frustrated with my lack of time, compounded by my difficulty in articulating the point. We have named atoms and parts of atoms, like the Greeks once named gods. This is necessary to our ability to form words and communicate concepts. We do this on a level way above what any animals do it. This is not making sounds that others understand as warnings or mating calls. This is doing something really different with a sound! You get an idea and give it a name- you may call the idea a god or an atomic particle, the point is, you know that combination of sounds, that makes up a word, is a concept, and if it is a complex concept, it means a whole of things in relation to each other. We are talking the miracle of our minds and communication. I will get back to the objection to education and NAZI mentality as soon as possible.

Wow, a super thank you! However, I do edge into what might be considered religious, based on how our minds work, but my thinking does not go with the mythology of religions. I think we need a knew understanding that is compatible with science, to counteract some of the destructive thinking that has become popular and is causing a crisis. I have been in some discussions about language, and have decided our ability to use language makes us pretty awesome. Like the more I think about it, the more mind blowing it is, what we can do with our minds. The talk that compares us to animals, seems to be taking for granted what we have achieved, and is taking us down the wrong path. More like Hitler's Germany than the democracy we defended in two world wars. I come from a belief in evolution, and think our decisions about crime and other human matters would be much, much better if we take our animal nature into consideration, but to stop there, just doesn't do us justice, and it destroys the American dream of individual human dignity and government by consensus that improves life on this planet! For me God is the bigger picture, and we are the only species that can contemplate that bigger picture. Perhaps we create God with our own minds? I mean, beyond creating stories of gods, want happens when people believe a God wants us to be moral, loving and forgiven and to do good works? Ouch, this is tipping into philosophy, but it appears our religions have much to do with economic progress, or a lack of progress. We are seeing this in China where Christianity is replacing Confusism (sp?), and we see how Islam has held back Islamic countries. But now China is rapidly becoming the largest Christian country on earth with a rapidly growing economy. People are taking a a serious look at the relationship between the Protestant work ethic and economic growth. In this science community, I might suggest we don't want to be left behind. What if killing God is also killing our economy, and really not the smart thing to do? I am not saying we should pick up a mythology that makes God unbelievable, but rethinking how awesome our minds are, and how we are different from animals,. If there is no other God, what if our shared consciousness has a God like effect on our lives? Scientifically, is language and communication and the ability to think abstractly, a God like power in our lives? Can we use reason to create a better reality? Abstractly, is there another word that is as all inclusive as "God". This is language- Quantum physics is the name given to a huge subject about energy units, and God an even bigger subject. Thank you, Swansont, for making this discussion possible. The question of who first taught the skill of abstract thinking? That is such an easy question. It was discovered. This began with the earliest mathematicians. Not the Egyptians and Indians who came up with amazing math, but the Greeks who took math out of religion and made it science. I have run out of time. Aristotle is a major player in the development of abstract. I will get back with a further explanation if people are interested.

Perhaps you confuse God with tangible reality? What every religious people seems to forget is God is unknown and beyond our comprehension,. They keep trying to make God a knowable and tangible reality. This is a mistake. The moment we think we know God, we know God not. God like time is an abstract concept. This is not tangible reality, but we treat time and God as though these abstract concepts are tangible reality. Even atheist do this, because the argument that God does or does not exist, depends on insisting God is a tangible reality, effectively destroying every argument about God, to the great peril of humanity. That is without God, some discussions just are not possible, and this strongly effects our ability to discuss matters regarding democracy. Just as without the concept of atoms, and invisible units of energy, discussion of quantum physics would not be possible. Does an abstract thought exist? We begin with simple concepts and combine them into complex concepts. This is abstract thinking. As if out of a magician's hat, we pull the concept of a 24 hour day, and 60 minute hour, and this works great on earth, but may not work at all on a smaller or larger planets, where their rotation gives them shorter or longer days and years. Also if a person on a distant planet is walking towards us, this person's present is our future, but if the person is walking away from us, this person's present becomes our past. Or as the seasons change we can decide to move clocks forwards and backwards. We also have to divide the planet into time zones to make trains and our system time of work. Time is obviously a concept not tangible reality, so abstract thought does exist and it serves a purpose. God as an abstract concept, that does exist and serve a purpose.

I did not see a science forum specifically for how our brains work, and what makes humans different from animals, so I chose the other science forum. If a mod determines another forum is better, place move it and inform me of the change. This is not the only experiment proving a chimps capacity for thinking but the most interesting to me. My argument is, some animals are capable of language and reasoning, but this is not equal to abstract thinking. I am arguing only humans are capable of abstract thinking. However, this is a skill that must be learned, and if it is not taught it can not be learned. More importantly this difference is why man can have God and animals do not. To contemplate time or God or religion or ideologies, requires the necessary knowledge for the abstract thought, and while animals can reason, only humans engage in abstract thinking. I believe we have reason to believe that chimps can reason. This belief is based on research where chimps are taught language. In one such research project a bonobo distressed by a man yelling at one of the female researchers, told a male researcher he must become violent with the man who yelled at the female, and the male researcher, of course, argued he would do such a thing. The bonobo told him if he did not hit the man who yelled at the woman, he would bit the male researcher for not doing what he should do. Of course the male researcher did not strike the man, and a few days the bonobo bit him, and so severely damaged his finger he had to go to the hospital and missed days of work. Later he refused to get near the bonobo until the bonobo apologized, and the bonobo did, proving the bonobo had a concept of right and wrong (bad behavior must be disciplined with violence) and cause and effect (I hurt Tom and now Tom won't visit with me unless I apologize). However, humans can learn simple concepts, and several simple concepts form complex concepts, such as a concept of time, God, or democracy. I mention this, because education for technology does not prepare us for abstract thinking and this becomes a serious social and political problem. A concept of God is quite essential to social and political thinking. I refer you to Cicero, and an understanding of universal law and logos, and our Declaration of Independence, the Laws of Nature and Nature's God that make democracy possible, and which is completely different from Zeus or the God of Abraham. Think of time and God are close to the same thing, because they are abstract concepts, that we treat as a tangible reality. When we insist on treating God as a tangible reality, we get into serious trouble, and every discuss of God is brought to an end, because they can never get beyond the argument about the existence of God. This is a failure to understand, time and God are not tangible reality. When we reject God as an abstract reality we make vitally important discussion impossible, and I have referred to this as being a NAZI, because the education for this thinking is dangerously limited to tangible reality and is unfit for self governing people. That is, abstract thinking is vital to our humanness, and ability to govern ourselves, and resolve our social problems without violence. To stop our education at tangible reality, and the reasoning of chimps, leads to the reality that manifested Hitler's New World Order which is ordered not by a culture of independent thinkers, but by Prussian military order applied to citizens.

There is no God, end of discussion.

There is no god, end of discussion.