MSC
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Posts posted by MSC
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1 minute ago, Sensei said:
...where have you been when US presidents ordered tortures of people in Guantanamo and similar facilities around the world? (I know, just watch the old threads).
...now you complain when Russians do exactly the same what US army did with innocent people..
...V.P. said that they are doing just the same what you did..
..but you don't even understood his words...
There are war criminals from western countries....
(did you watch the movies about the US conquering the West? Indians? right?)
...and now there are war criminals from Eastern European countries...
Centuries go by... same shit...
...but now broadcasted by Internet and satellites... immediately...
..and everything recorded by the Creator of The Universe... a backup version... Just in case someone lied to me in front of me...
How do you know if I've never complained about other war crimes and unjustified wars or guantanamo bay? That stuff all happened before I was ever on this forum too. That's why I've never mentioned them here.
Maybe someone should just start a war crime specific thread. That way people will stop trying to scold others for things they haven't said...
I want it stated explicitly, that I want all perpetrators of past, present and future war crimes, from attacking civilians, torturing POWs, genocide, wmds/bio/chemical warfare to face consequences for their actions. I am NOT in a position to make any group or individual face those consequences.
I choose to try and live in the present. Russian War crimes are now in the present. Somebody else's past war crimes do not justify or excuse more. They may make them a tad more understandable, but not excusable.
As a parent, I just don't buy the whole "Oh but I hit Jeremy because like a bazillion days ago he hit Rebecca and Rebecca cried and he didn't say sorry but today he called me poopy and I remembered about Rebecca so I hit him 5 times in the face... also I like turtles." Bullshit. Seriously, watching geopolitics and diplomacy play out is like being a fly on a wall of a preschool. It should also be said, it is a very very dangerous position for the fly to be in.
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10 hours ago, iNow said:
Sure, but long term projects don’t solve immediate term urgencies
True, but this situation has been years in the making, and could last for longer. Current expectations from military strategists are claiming they see this war lasting years.
The task isn't as large as you would think either. Europe already produces 25% of its energy use per year from renewable. 40% of its energy requirements were met by Russian fossil fuels.
If I were to use the energy figures from last year as an example, had this plan been initiated when Crimea was annexed, it is entirely possible that by last year, the 1000+Tw of Europe's energy requirements met by Russia, could have already been exceeded by renewables without military logistical expertise and manpower contributing toward an expedited installation.
Now, don't be too critical of this idea. Pitching a military energy solution to the Russian problem is killing two birds with one stone. 😆
Would be typical of humans to do wouldn't it? Create renewable energy infrastructure to save us from climate change? Nope. Create renewable energy infrastructure to mess with the Russians as part of a war effort? Where do I sign up? Says every true American patriot 😆
I think it's kind of a near perfect idea. The kind I don't have very often. It's one of those things you can do as a military option that cannot be used as any kind of pretext for direct military retaliation. There is nothing in the NATO-Russia treaties which forbids either from making upgrades to their own infrastructure as a military move.
10 hours ago, J.C.MacSwell said:I guess the 1956 Hungarian Revolution means little to them now.
I wouldn't be too hard on the Hungarian people. With state controlled media, corrupt policing and social media manipulation, it was a losing battle. My best friends wife is Hungarian, but she has left the country now.
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In an effort to try and move this discussion on, I want to pose a question.
Should NATO make use of its military resources to co-ordinate the accelerated building of a renewable energy infrastructure in NATO members territories, in order to effectively and completely end any leveraging power Russian Oil has in Europe?
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22 hours ago, mistermack said:
No? It was good enough for Iraq. Horrendous stuff done by the US.
Nobody here has stated that they supported the war in Iraq. Nobody here has stated they support the idea of war crimes when committed by the USA. Somebody else's potential war crimes, do NOT justify Russias current war crimes. The ACTUAL topic of discussion. You are tilting at windmills. It's just getting incredibly boring at this point. You've added little of value to this discussion and are just accusing us of believing or saying things that nobody has said.
Did your mother never tell you that two wrongs do not make a right? Ukraine wasn't the one at war with Iraq. Ukrainian civilians certainly were never at war with Iraq. How is Iraq, the Cuban missile crisis or an imaginary war with Mexico in any way shape or form, relevant or related to this discussion?
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20 hours ago, mistermack said:
asked some time ago, what do you think the USA would do, if Mexico was arranging to join in a mutual anti-USA military pact with China and Russia, and nobody had an anwer. Because everybody knows that the USA military would be down Mexico way like a shot, and all autonomy would be forgotten in an instant.
Except that isn't what is happening, therefore the wild speculation is irrelevant.
51 minutes ago, mistermack said:No spin here then.
So long as YOU think it's possible, that's good enough for me !
You literally just copied a few of the words used... do you actually believe this makes you sound intelligent?
19 hours ago, StringJunky said:Why don't you fuck off to Russia and enjoy the delights of their state media. Stop dragging this topic into irrelevance. If you've got an axe to grind, make your own thread. We don't need your bile making a difficult subject more difficult to navigate. You are making this thread stink of red herrings.
Agreed. +1 at this point I wouldn't be surprised if it turned out they work for Russian state media. Russia commits war crimes, then all of a sudden some random apologist appears in places where people are having informed discussions about it. State sponsored trolling doesn't seem too far-fetched to be a really possibility here imo.
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30 minutes ago, mistermack said:
Where's your evidence?
Where's yours?!
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38 minutes ago, Phi for All said:
Staff split his first comment off of a larger thread about a different subject, so mistermack didn't "start" this thread. The post was deemed off-topic for the other subject and threatened to take it off course, but mistermack seemed like he wanted to make the point that poor people get everything handed to them and rich people get all the blame, so this post was set as the OP for it's own thread.
I think it gives people the opportunity to respond specifically to assertions made that would likely derail the main conversation. I'd like to use splits more often, especially when the comments seem like they're made specifically to drag a good talk into the mud. It gives us a chance to really drill down and find out where someone is coming from.
Fair enough. I get why the staff did that. I just wish mistermack would use the opportunity to have their own thread to at least be coherent. I mean, the "poor get everything handed to them"? Then why are they still poor? Then there is the connection between being poor and from another country? Finding it hard to keep up and annoyed that Mistermack is ignoring large swathes of our responses.
I mean, if I take a few news stories of British or American citizens committing heinous crimes, by mistermacks logic do I get to claim that they are all criminals and that the one or two news stories I grabbed are incontrovertible evidence of this? Hell no!
Sometimes I have to say, I almost prefer it when a bigot is more direct. That is a much more straightforward situation to handle. I can just tell them to fuck off and/or go out and spend a year in a community where their target demographic is in the majority before speaking again.
I used to live in a highly segregated area (segregated by redlining/greenling history, not policy) called North Lawndale in Chicago. It's a majority black area. It is crime ridden and run by gangs. The majority of the people there, are NOT in gangs. The majority of the people there HATE gangs. The majority of the people there are LAW ABIDING. Two of my closest friends from back home in the UK, are African. When I was homeless they took me in where my family had abandoned me. So not only do I have an experience of immigrants in my home country that treated me amazingly; I have an experience of being an immigrant in another country among people who had justifiable reasons for being terrified of me, yet welcomed me with open arms.
I'm saying all this because I admittedly feel kind of worked up and emotional. Had a horrible fucking dream last night and waking up to this has upset me, no doubt about that.
@mistermackAll I want you to do, is ask yourself why you are allowing fear and hatred to colour your views of people and why you think it is appropriate to blame Ukrainians for Russia invading them and why you think that countries that choose to make use of the NATO open door policy are somehow in the wrong and deserve to be attacked by Russia for it?
I think you should apologize for misunderstandings caused by you.
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8 hours ago, mistermack said:
Except that your "statistical study" seems to have come up with a spectacularly false conclusion. I just looked up incarceration rates in the US, and non-US citizens make up about 16 to 17 percent of inmates, while they are only 14 percent of the population. And reading your actual link, the top reason given as a deterrent to offending by immigrants was fear of deportation, just as I said earlier.
And in their shoes, I would do the same and keep my head down.
In the UK it's 9% immigrants giving 12-13% of inmates. But going by the reporting, the immigrant inmates are often there for the more serious crimes, whereas a substantial proportion of the domestic born inmates are there for more petty crimes, because of mental health issues and drug offences.
https://www.americanimmigrationcouncil.org/research/immigrants-in-the-united-states
https://fullfact.org/immigration/foreigners-prison/
I'm sorry if you find facts bigoted, but you asked the question.
Dude wtf is your agenda? I've asked you wtf this hijack is even for and so far it just seems to be a soapbox for you to rail against poor people and immigrants.
Your interpretation of statistics is very telling of an extremely bigoted mindset.
You can't give any of us a clear answer as to what this thread is about, so I don't see why we should engage with you anymore.
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24 minutes ago, mistermack said:
made the mistake of putting a joke in it, about the Ironic nature of the rich oligarchs getting the worst end of the deal. Bit too subtle it seems
I get it, now that you've explained a little. Unfortunately high brow comedy is very hard to pull off in this venue. Yes the people here are more likely to get the joke, but only if you had a microphone and were on a stage in the right atmosphere. Take it from me, I come from the comedy capital of the world. Philosophy and phenomenology of comedy and humour are favorites of mine. So I admire your attempt. 100%.
Jokes around discussions involving war crimes, are not advisable. Tensions are high. Read the room.
10 minutes ago, Phi for All said:Watch the video again, and realize she keeps referring to "NATO expansion", as if they're actively recruiting member states. That's disinformation, and fosters the Putin viewpoint that an aggressor is threatening. That's not the unvarnished truth you seem to think it is. I'd love to hear from some of our Indian members to see what they think about WION. To me, it seems like cheap propaganda claiming to be fair and balanced.
Agreed. NATO expansion doesn't account for the agency of other countries to want that themselves based on what they have seen of the member countries.
WION has a decent bias rating. Usually factual. However in terms of freedom of the press, out of 180 countries, it ranks at 140 on a scale of higher being less free and lower being more free.
Their policy on international news is to produce it factual and give information on both sides views. However this is also the product of Indian foreign policy in regards to Russia and NATO is to give the impression of neutrality so as not to piss off Russia or NATO or piss them both off equally as a worst case scenario. Its editorials do tend to lean to the right, and it sometimes has problems sourcing or citing clearly.
To be clear, the opening messages and sentiment, clearly framed that what Russia is doing with the Ukraine, is unjustifiable, intolerable and there is a solid case against them.
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26 minutes ago, mistermack said:
Just posting this link again where it's relevant.
She gives a balanced view of the Ukraine events, and NATO expansion, something people in the west will not be used to, being constantly fed nothing but spin and propeganda.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TzgPJeYZaOU
No, it's ironic.
Then it's a poor execution of irony.
Her view is hardly balanced when even at the very start, she states there are solid claims against Russia and that their invasion of the Ukriane should not be tolerated. The rest she states as a reminder to consider and review the history before assigning 100% blame. I haven't seen anyone here disagree with the notion that NATO played its part in escalating tensions. So stop accusing all of having listened to propaganda. You don't know what news sources I use so don't assume to know.
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1 hour ago, mistermack said:
Knock knock.. Hello! . . . Hello . . .
Is there anyone out there with a sense of irony, or the slightest sense of humour? Apparently not.
Here is the kind of thing that the western media will not allow you to see, if they can help it. They are keeping you nicely fed on spin :
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TzgPJeYZaOU
What is this thread about exactly? What is it you want us to discuss here? Is it class or something else involving Russia and Nato which could still be shared within the main thread?
Why the hijack basically?
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1 hour ago, zapatos said:
think you meant to post this in a different thead
Tbh I think I need to change the more recent socioeconomic class thread to be a little less specific.
1 hour ago, mistermack said:It's always the poor what gets the gravy, and the rich what gets the blame !
What makes you believe this? This is quite hyperbolic. Always the poor? The poor are quantifiably more often on the short end of the stick by virtue of population density alone. The richest people in the world could probably all fit into a decent sized theater or sports venue while the poor of the world living in one country would be overcrowded.
1 hour ago, mistermack said:Yeh, but it's one law for the rich, and another for the poor.
High level tax, financial and business crimes are more likely to be committed by the people that have the assets to engage in them. It is one law for everybody, but there are crimes which certain demographics are more likely to commit. There are some crimes you can literally only commit if you have a lot of money or are in a position of authority like law enforcement, trust fund managers, government, military, law, ceo etc etc.
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6 minutes ago, mistermack said:
Not really original though. Confiscate the property of people if you don't like their religion or politics?
Economic warfare in retaliation to documentable war crimes is a strategy with far fewer casualties of war than military action. This isn't Caesar killing a rich Roman and taking their money, this is more like catching Walter white by targeting his money.
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3 hours ago, swansont said:
don't know that the Russian people see much of what is fed to us, but they do see propaganda from state media, so there are undoubtedly large groups that support him.
I don't think he fears a revolt, I think he fears a coup initiated by the oligarchs.
He probably fears both, but the latter more, so you're mostly correct. Although since the state started trying to crack down on foreign and independent news sources, downloads of VPNs in Russia have increased dramatically and Russians living outside of Russia are attempting to keep another information back channel with friends and relatives back home.
As it stands; Russian resistance to Putins Regime is something it is difficult for us outside of Russia to get reliable information about, since the state will want to not only crush said resistance, but pretend like it doesn't exist as well. Outside of Russia we have heard about protests and mass arrests, but what are we not hearing about? How many figures in authority have spoken out and disappeared? Have their been violent protests? Are their any regional governments who are at odds with the Kremlin over this? Etc. There is probably a lot more going on than it is possible for us to hear about at this moment in time. They are attempting to rebuild the iron curtain. Putin, as a dictator, will be actively setting into motion the implementation of further isolating Russians from the rest of the world.
Putin is already starting to mistrust the military and his advisors, while his growing paranoia will present and express itself far differently to say someone like Donald Trump, it is still growing paranoia. It's kind of like a bad guy paranoia feedback loop. You do some fucked up shit, you get more paranoid about being held accountable for that fucked up shit, so you do some more fucked up shit to try to avoid accountability but then just end up even more paranoid and the process repeats itself over and over until a breaking point is reached and you've done so much fucked up shit to everyone that you can no longer trust that a single person won't want some form of revenge or satisfaction from you.
10 minutes ago, Genady said:It is back to the same what I've left 43 years ago.
Oooooh. Attacking the credibility of members of the military... dumb move. That will come back to bite them in the ass I bet.
26 minutes ago, mistermack said:And Americans. Blow them up, for Hiroshima. And Germans. Starve them to death for Auschwitz. And the Irish. Blast them, for Mountbatten. And kill all the whites in South Africa. And the Welsh. For being Welsh. Makes a lot of sense.
Not a good comparison. Economic sanctions and confiscation of goods and property are completely different from killing these people. I support the former, not the latter. My support of the former does not suggest or imply that I would support the latter.
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11 hours ago, swansont said:
It's not like it's the first time they've done this.
We had war crimes trials after WWII, but that involved countries that surrendered and were not in a position to obstruct such proceedings. I think Putin isn't afraid of being held accountable, partly because he probably doesn't think he's done anything wrong and partly because he thinks he's beyond reach.
He does fear the Russian people holding him accountable. Most of what he does, the cries of "fake news" from "western media", are less for convincing the international community, and more for convincing Russians within Russia.
It's a pity that at 69 he looks so healthy. I'm currently holding faith in the fact that nobody is out of reach of the tragedies of nature... if either the Russian people or a health problem could just make him disappear or hand him over to the ICC that would be great. Another Dicktator bites the dust. (I MISPELLED NOTHING! 😆)
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On 4/1/2022 at 5:34 AM, swansont said:
Less chocolate for the cult, per capita. That's why the initiation rites are so...grueling.
Ohhh... so it's more like a highlander thing than a cult then? There can be only one... to which all the chocolate belongs! Nah, can't do that. My wife would kill us both.
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59 minutes ago, J.C.MacSwell said:
guess he wants Russian gas.
I thought he was already sniffing up all of Putins farts as they came?
6 hours ago, StringJunky said:Lithuania started that ball rolling on Saturday by stopping Russian gas imports. If we do, we are going to feel the impact even more at home.
We are already feeling some of the impact now. Gas prices have shot up where we are and probably will some more. We are still comparatively better off than Russia and especially the Ukraine. I'm willing to bare the cost, if Russians feel it tenfold and it gives more light to Ukraine at the end of the tunnel. I'd pay 1000% more if I knew it would save and spare Ukrainians from their current waking nightmare. Especially their children. As a parent; I can't even imagine what people are going through there. That alone scares me.
It's Ukraine today, but where tomorrow? The Berlin wall keeps moving. How long before Putin decides to try his luck at pushing another front? His troops are already doing war games now on the islands of North Japan, engaging in maneuvers training in beach defense.
One thing I also fear, is what China may be planning. If I was president Xi, at least a small part of me would be wondering whether or not making moves on Taiwan, could be done with less media attention if it runs concurrently with Putins invasion of Ukraine?
Btw I've had a few drinks tonight, so I apologize if I sound more dramatic than usual 😆
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12 minutes ago, zapatos said:
Lots of things are obvious. Like the sun going around the earth, that the cause of disease is "bad vapors", and that the universe is static.
We can do better than that. This is a science site. Evidence and reason are to be embraced, not ignored for the expediency of a shortcut named "obvious".
Ahhh yes, the whole "it's obvious" spiel. Usually a lame attempt to try to make someone feel stupid for daring to disagree with or challenge someone's claims.
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Quote
Oleksiy Arestovych, an adviser to Ukrainian President Volodymyr Zelenskyy, said scores of residents were found slain on the streets of Bucha and the Kyiv suburbs of Irpin and Hostomel in what looked like a “scene from a horror movie.”
Some people were shot in the head and had their hands bound, and some bodies showed signs of torture, Arestovych said. There also were reports of rapes, he said.
If this turns out to be true, then Russia has a lot to answer for. This is just cruel and barbaric at this point. How exactly is this justified? Ukraine won't remain neutral so you kill, torture and rape them in their home?
If anybody says something along the lines of "Oh well they should have surrendered early then this would not have happened." I sincerely hope you get banned. I've no patience for victim blaming bs.
It almost feels as if Putin is actively trying to provoke NATO into action so he can turn it around and claim he's actually being victimized by the west.
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1 hour ago, mistermack said:
Your imaginary tiger is a kindly pussy cat then.
Of course Churchill was a liar and windbag. "WE will fight on the beaches etc. " ?? HE wasn't going to be fighting anyone. And if Hitler had managed to invade, he would have surrendered immediately. Or the Nazis would just wipe out town after town, until he did.
Putin is no Pussy cat and he certainly is not imaginary. I'm finding it very difficult to take you at all seriously. You don't really seem to have the slightest idea as to what you're talking about and I'm not the only one who has picked up on that.
Thank you for sharing your opinions on this matter. They tell me everything I need to know about you. I don't think we have anything more to discuss. I don't care for your ifs and maybes in regards to Hitler and Churchill and I think your suggestion of capitulation and submission to Putin, after the deaths of innocent children at the hands of the Russian Army, hint at the complete lack of a spine and complete disrespect to victims of war crimes.
4 hours ago, StringJunky said:Not keeping it real or sincere. An analogy would be those building facades you see in the old spaghetti westerns... they are all front with no depth.
Ahhh now I see. Thank you. Although the Good, The Bad and the Ugly is okay. I enjoyed it 😆
I don't know, Churchill was sincere enough for me in wartime. Hitlers speeches were very sincere, it doesn't make them good speeches though and being sincere about wanting to exterminate jews certainly doesn't win you any awards with me... except maybe an award for being the world's biggest shit.
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2 hours ago, geordief said:
All politicians are lying wind bags?
Any other sections of society this can also be said of?
Probably... to both questions.
2 hours ago, geordief said:Btw I used until recently to think Churchill's "fight on the beaches..." speech was all front ...until I heard Zelensky
I'm unfamiliar with the phrase "all front" in this context. Could you expand on what you mean exactly?
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2 hours ago, mistermack said:
Churchill was a lying windbag.
He was a politician. So of course he was a lying windbag. That's not news. He was still right about Hitler.
Take my head out of the tigers mouth of course. I'm certainly not going to speak to it.
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25 minutes ago, mistermack said:
It's the craziest of wars. Zelensky now says neutrality and abandoning the Nato membership ambition are up for grabs. If he'd had a bit of foresight, and offered that six weeks ago, it could all be forgotten by now.
QuoteYou cannot reason with a tiger when your head is in its mouth!
- Winston Churchill (Fictitious line from the movie Darkest hour)
To be clear, he never said this exactly. However I find the phrase at least to be meaningful in this situation.
What he apparently did say, was that you cannot reason with cynical immorality or from a position of weakness.
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1 hour ago, beecee said:
I mentioned it earlier in the thread, perhaps the best solution, is for a Russian/s to take matters into their own hands and take him out, before any chances of the unthinkable happening.
Agreed. Something we can both agree on. +1
On the slightly better news, reports are coming in that the Russian Army has formally given back control of the Chernobyl facilities to Ukraine and the troops that were stationed there and nearby are heading back to Belarus.... wonder how many of them need treatment for radiation poisoning? These are early stage reports coming from the Ukrainian government and the USA so there is a small chance this may not be the case or it may be a Russian ruse.
That being said; Removing Putin would leave a power vacuum, dangerous for its own reasons but at this point the devil we know is still the devil.
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War Games: Russia Takes Ukraine, China Takes Taiwan. US Response?
in Politics
Posted
I'm not saying don't send boats, helicopters and life vests. I'm also not saying nuclear power plants. Those take ages, to build and are very high maintenance. I was thinking more along the lines of Wind, Solar and Hydro.
Don't worry, I'm not the sort of person who believes problems have just one solution. When it comes to climate change and other big issues, I lean toward a maximalist, multi-tiered approach of doing everything possible, that is effective, at once by building the right teams for the jobs.
I'm not American FYI.
I don't care if Putin says he can do this because the US did the same. The main point there is the US did that. Not Ukraine. If the Russians want to have more Americans pay for war crimes, it can supply evidence to the ICC just like everyone else.
"But your honor, people have committed murder before, so I ought to be allowed to escape punishment when I murder because you haven't caught all the other murderers yet!" - this about sums up how Putins and your argument sounds to me. In any criminal court, someone else's past crimes are not viewed as justification for you to commit crimes. Especially years after the fact. In fact, to clearly describe what your motivation was, actually just helps prosecute you. If you say; I murdered X because X did y, that's an admission of guilt. I mean, if you are factual and have evidence that corroborates your motive, all that would lead to, is you and the person who committed the motivating crime; both go to jail. They'll just have a separate trial to you, if you convince the prosecution to go after them next.
And yes; you may not have been addressing me, but this is an open discussion and you or I can interject on anyone's points at any time.
No it isn't...