interested

Is this the same BH that is burping according to the BBC.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/science-environment-42655685?ocid=global_bbccom_email_12012018_top+news+stories

Can BH's eject matter from beyond the event horizon, or do these kind of burps originate in the accretion disc.I included the following link because there are lots of other interesting links at the bottom.

https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2018/01/180111162934.htm

2 hours ago, Janus said:

No.  A photon has no valid frame of reference.   It is also meaningless to talk about time dilation for a photon.  If you  make v=c in the time dilation equation you get T=t/0, and division by zero is undefined and has no solution.

Are you saying space time does not exist for a photon ? or maybe time dilation does not apply and distances do not appear shorter for particles travelling at or very near light speed. 

1 hour ago, Strange said:

By chance, Janus has just answered this in another thread. I can't do better than quote him:

Is this link wrong http://www.emc2-explained.info/Time-Dilation/#.Wlez3qgo3IU

However, a photon emitted from a star in Andromeda and heading out towards the Earth travels in a vacuum and, because it's a photon, travels at the speed of light. Because the photon is moving at the speed of light it has a 100% time dilation factor. To the photon time does not exist until it strikes the upper atmosphere of our planet and even then is only slowed down by a tiny fraction. According to a photon in free space, time, or for that matter distance, has no meaning whatsoever, and it gets from wherever it is to wherever it is going instantly!

I posted a question on another thread, but its kind of related here also I think, in a twisted kind of way. 

From the photons point of view if I am correct and distance does not exist. Time is stationery for a photon and distance is therefore also 0. Does the photon exist in another dimension from its point of view, where space and time do not exist.

All observers perceive the photons effect moving through 3 d space at the same speed. From the photons point of view it is not going any where, and all things are zero distance away from it. In 3 D space and time, space and time can be infinite, for the photon it is all zero. Which implies both an infinite universe and a zero universe can exist at the same time, the zero universe connecting all points in space time. 

Am I correct in thinking that since a photon travels at light speed, and for it time stops, the distance from the photons point of view is zero to any point in the universe. ie the photon is stationery from its point of view because time has stopped for it, and the distances it travels are shrunk, a bit like a muon. 

18 hours ago, Itoero said:

 

Entanglement and quantum-probability imo demands an extra dimension.

https://arxiv.org/abs/1609.01287

Thank you very much for the links, the pdf is very interesting, it will take me a little while to absorb. Extra dimensions explain a lot. 

14 hours ago, Strange said:

But entanglement does not need more spatial dimensions to explain it. It is explained already using 3 spatial dimensions.

There are multiple links on this thread pointing out what can be achieved through entanglement, but no actual explanations of HOW it works. How can two particles operate as one particle when separated by a large distance?  

Please go ahead and explain using 3 spacial dimensions how entanglement works.

On 1/9/2018 at 2:37 PM, Janus said:

This is not always the case.   For example, on the surface of Uranus a clock would tick slower than it would on the surface of the Earth, yet you would weigh less on the surface of Uranus than you would on the surface of the Earth.  Gravitational time dilation is not tied to the local acceleration due to gravity.

Is that due to the movement through space of Uranus, or its spin rate or a mixture both or something else.

On 1/9/2018 at 11:26 AM, swansont said:

Let's have the model, then. If you know it could explain a lot, you must have a model in mind. Otherwise, how can you know this?

How can I know anything, maybe I read, listen, observe, think and balance the pros and cons etc.  

Any type of particle that moves in extra dimensions, as well as in the dimensions we know about, will appear, to naive observers such as ourselves who are unaware of the extra dimensions, as multiple types of particles that move only in the known dimensions and which differ little from each other except in their masses.

Matt Strassler is a theoretical physicist who has ideas about an extra spacial dimension some of which is based around the Kaluza Klein ideas I posted earlier https://profmattstrassler.com/articles-and-posts/some-speculative-theoretical-ideas-for-the-lhc/extra-dimensions/how-to-look-for-signs-of-extra-dimensions/

Kaluza Klein ideas are prior to string theory, but they are interesting never the less. 

On 1/9/2018 at 11:25 AM, Strange said:

Who knows. We have theories based on 3 spatial dimensions that explain all these things

All things uh, like dark matter, dark energy, how gravity works, entanglement, how a photon moves. Oh and string theory, must be nonsense as well, or at least the extra unfolded spacial dimensions. 

23 hours ago, Estranged said:

This is the most interesting post I've read. I'll have to read it another 20 or so times before I can begin to understand it though. 

Thanks I was asking questions like you, BUT that post of mine has some errors, the link I posted https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Time_dilation is I think very good, and worth reading several times. The bungy analogy needs modifying however. 

Time slows down on large planets compared with space, where time normally ticks faster unless you are moving, you will also be heavier on larger planets, in a Black Hole time could even stop. Moving through space slows time down, but in every day life even for astronauts the record achieved so far is  0.02s http://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/2013/10/23/sergei-krikalev-time-travel_n_4147793.html after months in space, orbitting the earth. So its not really worth worrying about, unless you are navigating by GPS where time dilation effects experienced by GPS satellites are important, and need to be taken into account.

On 1/7/2018 at 9:05 PM, studiot said:

thought the innovation was that the speed of light was the same for all observers.

Would extra spacial dimensions help explain how a photon appears to travel at the same speed for all observers. 

On 1/6/2018 at 8:25 AM, Strange said:

Quantum field theory works perfectly well in 4D spacetime. Do you have any evidence to back up this assertion?

A 4th spacial dimension is not my idea. There are multiple references on this thread already, and across the forum on many other threads.

On 1/7/2018 at 11:58 AM, Strange said:

It is not random. It is deterministic but probabilistic. 

Quantum theory is a just mathematical model as is relativity. With any theory if you know all the inputs you can get an accurate answer. If you know all the main inputs you can get a reasonable approximation. If you take a black box with a some known inputs you can get a reasonable answer probably, most of the time. Quantum theory is working on probalistic outcomes. It does not describe why the black box works in the way it does. Relativity is also a mathematical model, with a set of known inputs giving outputs that match the observed world, it also gives other outputs that dont match the observed world as far as can be detected, perhaps the model does not have all the known inputs and requires an extra dimension. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kaluza–Klein_theory ,

I have noted that when discussing photons on this forum a 4th spacial dimension has never been mentioned, why not? Along with entanglement a 4th dimension could explain a lot. 4 spacial dimensions are easy to visualize adding more gets a trifle confusing, would more dimensions in time be possible? 

What properties would an additional dimension need to have, to make it explain entanglement, or how a photon moves, or how a particle can appear in two places at once? 

The photon can be viewed as a solitron wave, how would it move through 4 dimensions, does any one have an opinion? does time come into it or not?

48 minutes ago, Strange said:

You might want to look up Occam’s Razor. 

Occams Razor is an excellent tool, it has two edges, and cuts in many different ways.

For example

Cut 1:

For a Four dimensional creature living in 4 dimensional space and time

If two particles appear to be connected over a long distance, and appear to transfer information almost instantaneously, then they may be connected by an extra spacial dimension.  If a particle appears in two places at once, then it exists in both places at once and could be by an extra spacial dimension.

Cut 2:

For a flat lander living in 3 dimensional space and time

If two particles appear to be connected over a long distance, and appear to transfer information almost instantaneously, then a mathematical function in 3 dimensional space can explain it.  If a particle appears in two places at once, then a mathematical function in 3 dimensional space can explain it.

Cut 3 :

For anyone prepared to accept there may be more than 3 spacial dimensions and one time dimension

String theory, has extra spacial dimensions, an earlier theory involving just 4 spacial dimensions one of them invariant and a time time dimension was  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kaluza–Klein_theory ,

---------------------------------------------------

The FACT is modern science appears to require extra spacial dimensions to explain the real world. Cut 1 is simple, Cut 2 is for flat landers, Cut 3 is complicated.

I posted the question on Kaluza Klein as it introduces a 4th spacial dimension and did not disagree with relativity although it does have problems as indicated in the link. It is an early example of science contemplating an extra spacial dimension, possibly connecting other 3 dimensional spaces directly together, via an invariant spacial scalar dimension.

IF OCCAMS RAZOR IS APPLIED IN  ALL DIRECTIONS, extra spacial dimensions exist. However as you are aware using maths it is not difficult to reduce a four dimensional space to 3 dimensions for flat landers to understand.  

The problem you encountered is common.

Connectors made in the USA and Europe often differ, rounding errors when converting imperial to metric does not help, this is especially noticeable on small gauge connectors. I always check very carefully after having been caught out more than once, that electrical pins connect firmly, not just the mechanical connections. RJ45 USA is not the same as RJ 45 EU for instance , although they may work 50% of the time. With a lose electrical connection it will deteriate over time and will cause intermittent problems due to the slightest movement

On 1/6/2018 at 8:25 AM, Strange said:

Quantum field theory works perfectly well in 4D spacetime. Do you have any evidence to back up this assertion?

The fact a mathematical model explaining the universe to some one living in flat land works perfectly well does not mean it is complete. Entanglement is simply explained for me by an additional spacial dimension that  can potentially connect different points in 4 dimension space time to another distant point in 4 D space time.

On 1/6/2018 at 8:25 AM, Strange said:

The universe still exists so I don't know what you are basing this idea of it being "unstable" on.

Quantum fluctuations and excitations can randomly appear to move around in space time, with an  extradimension this might not appear so random.

With the addition of one extra dimension as a minimum connecting points in space, it appears possible to me to explain many things.

15 hours ago, Mordred said:

Klien Gordon as opposed to the Schrodinger equation

Ahhh Schrodinger equation I actively avoided questions on this in my final exams, do you have any opinion on Kaluza Klein 5 dimensional space https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kaluza–Klein_theory 

20 hours ago, Strange said:

I’m not aware of any theories needing extra time dimensions. 

String theories need at least 9 spacial dimensions,  and i understand some use more than one time dimension

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/String_theory

20 hours ago, Strange said:

Tachyons are a bit like dark matter, they havent been detected.  3 space and 1 time dimension do not appear to cover the QM world which appears a little unstable a 4th spacial dimension is not stretching the realms of possibility, when string theory is taken into account.

9 hours ago, MigL said:

I used to have a real Spirograph...

Whats a spirograph, is this what you are talking about https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spirograph aqnd what has that got to do with entanglement or an extra dimension

edit Interesting link https://phys.org/news/2018-01-quantum-spooky-action-distance.html?utm_source=nwletter&utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=daily-nwletter

17 hours ago, Rob McEachern said:

Yes. The last sentence in the article states "These include fundamental questions for our understanding of the universe like the interplay of quantum correlations and dimensionality..."

As I have described in other posts, the effect of "quantum correlations" can be produced by misinterpreting measurements made on a 1-dimensional object (a single bit of information) as being caused by measurements assumed to be made on the multiple vector components existing within a 3D object.

18 hours ago, Strange said:

However it could possibly be evidence for a possible effect that might be consistent with a 4d Hall effect. 

So 4 spacial dimensions are definately possible, but not definitely proven.

Would anyone have any opinions on additional time dimensions, involved with entanglement?

15 hours ago, swansont said:

That's not much to go on.  A discussion on this would have to have a citation so everyone knows what reference is being used, and has to take place in its own thread.

13 hours ago, Janus said:

I don't know where you read that, but is definitely incorrect.  It is quite easy to do a quick estimate to how big an effect time dilation would have and show that it is many orders of magnitude too small to produce the observations.  

I've seen this type of "explanation" too often.   " Those silly scientists, if they had only been smart enough to account for "X", they would have saved themselves a lot of trouble".   It assumes that they are so clueless that they couldn't find their own arse with both hands.

There are multiple links on the idea of time dilation effects being responsible for dark matter, here is a recent one from A. Deur University of Virginia, Charlottesville, Virginia 22901, USA. There are many more on similar lines from other universities, but like Swansont said another thread would be required to discuss it.

I initially stumbled across this idea from a paper from the university of Milan, but then found papers from all over the world by various possibly other silly people. 

https://arxiv.org/pdf/1709.02481.pdf

https://gregoriobaquero.wordpress.com/2017/01/26/rame-is-dm/

15 hours ago, swansont said:

One would need a model and a way to distinguish this from the already-accepted theory of relativity.

This ONE has no theory to replace any theories, just questions?

I was interested in time dilation of quantum foam inside a BH because it might affect the ideas how Quantum Gravity works, ie it might kill the idea, leaving just relativity and stretched space. 

15 hours ago, swansont said:

Not the aether that preceded Einstein. Several people have noted that the OP is ambiguous, as it does not clarify what is meant by the aether.

Yes I posted a link earlier giving various ideas on the aether. My question was could time dilation be regarded as detecting a form of aether. I think the answer was no, but it depends how you look at it and what your reference point was.

36 minutes ago, swansont said:

Not sure what such off-topic speculation has to do with an aether. 

I read somewhere that one idea of the aether was that it is space. If space is considered to flow and can be detected flowing by the slowing down or speeding up of a clock, then you have detected something, I wondered if time dilation could be as a result of the space(aether). Gravity or the stretching of space can be viewed as the flow of space towards a mass,  moving through space causes clocks to slow, conversely space moving towards a clock causes it to slow. Without movement in space the clock ticks faster.

Ligo detected waves in space, a property of space is that it can affect physical dimensions when stretched or compressed. Characteristics of space can be detected by gravity, time dilation etc.

I thought I was on topic sorry

48 minutes ago, swansont said:

IIRC GPS uses an earth-cenetered reference frame, and pretends it's inertial (which means you have to account for the Sagnac effect for any signal traveling along the equatorial direction, which you can do). Everywhere on the earth's surface is the same time (universal time) and clock rates only vary with elevation. It should make sense to use that, since it's a terrestrial system. 

But the reference frame used in inertial systems is by choice — a convenience — not because physics can be used to tell you that it is the correct frame.

Would atomic clocks at the poles measure the same time as those at the equator.

5 minutes ago, Strange said:

Remember, all moment and velocity is relative. And time dilation is not something that happens to you because you are "moving through space", it is something that is measured by someone else who is moving relative to you (and you would measure the same looking at them). Who is to say that one of you is "moving through space" and the other isn't, or vice versa. You can be stationary in space (in your chosen coordinates) and someone else will still see your clocks undergo time dilation (and you, theirs).

So it is not an effect of moving space on you.

Yes I get what you are saying. That is why I suggested a reference location to measure things from to remove the ambiguity, it seems like they do with GPS. 

19 minutes ago, Janus said:

As pointed out by Swansont,  Such a choice would be just a matter of convenience and would not signify any uniqueness for that reference.   Such choices are made all the time in Relativity. You simply choose the reference which makes the calculations the simplest.   But what reference this is depends on the problem you are dealing with. Particle accelerators use the lab centered frame and GPS uses the Earth centered frame. But if you were dealing with the Solar system at large, then a Sun centered frame would make a better choice.   At interstellar scales, a galaxy centered frame might make more sense, etc.

Would you happen to have an opinion on the effects of time dilation calculations on dark matter. I read if time dilation is taken into account dark matter is not needed, and relativity is correct again.

4 hours ago, swansont said:

No.

Inertial motion is relative; you can't tell who is moving, thus there is no preferred frame.

I think I understand what you are saying, a reference point is required to make any relative measurements, it is like in electronic circuits, a voltage measurement needs a reference point. So why not use the centre of the sun (or perhaps earth) for instance as a reference point, (what do GPS satellites use as a reference point). All things could be measured relative to this in our solar system, and time would appear to slow down or speed up dependent on movement, in space with reference to a reference point. If it is assumed that space is flowing towards and being absorbed by the sun and causes the appearance of the stretching of space then moving through space is the same thing and will cause time dilation, if you travel fast enough. 

https://phys.org/news/2018-01-moon-hasnt-years.html Blood moon

Question is this link related to entanglement, https://phys.org/news/2018-01-flatland-quantum-hall-physics-d.html ie proof of a 4th dimension type of thing.

Question, Einstein believed in the aether for a time, could time dilation be regarded as a kind of proof of an aether, if you move through it time slows, if you are stationery it speeds up, gravity slows time etc. 

18 hours ago, Janus said:

As I already stated in my reply to you in another thread, for the muon, from the moment of its creation until it reaches the ground, It will "see" the Earth clock as running slower.  It's just that the Earth clock already reads a later time when the muon first finds itself having come into existence.

got it. Thanks again.

On 12/26/2017 at 8:11 PM, MigL said:

anything inside the event horizon ( particles, quarks, quantum fluctuations or any other fancy names you can come up with.

I have just had a bit of an education on relativity and was laboring under a misconception that time speeds up inside a BH, it does not, it slows down and may stop.

As you are aware things travelling at light speed do not age according to observers, photons for instance, do not age. Inside a BH time may also stop.

Muon life time is extended for the observer as it approaches the earth at near light speed, although from the Muons point of view it sees the earths clock ticking faster, and distances shortened. This is going to be similar inside a BH

Do Quantum fluctuations/virtual particles which only have a short life times in free space have longer lifetimes inside a BH. Can they add to the mass inside a BH, like a photon might. Could they even accumalate energy and become stable Quantum excitations/particles of one form or another.

Thank you very much for the replies, especially Janus. 

To clarify just a little bit further, although I think I may have got it now. Gravity slows time down, ie time runs faster in space than it does on a large planet. For a space being however time is slowed by speed and this offsets the faster aging he/she/dog/etc would have experienced otherwise.

Does acceleration also like gravity slow time down like gravity on a large planet, or is this offset by the speed? 

Edit Would a vibrating object experiencing high ratesof acceleration go slower through time than the space around it?

I asked a question about how time is affected by gravity or acceleration, no one answered so having googled it, I will have a bash myself, but may have confused myself somewhat. 

A fundamental result in Special Relativety is that a clock along an accelerated world line through two events in space time records less elapsed time between those events than a clock along an unaccelerated world line through the same two events.

Since, in this case, an accelerated clock and an unaccelerated clock are co-located at two different events, the two clocks can be directly compared and, in this case, the time dilation is absolute - does the accelerated clock tick faster than the unaccelerated clock ?????? Is time slower in space?????????????

The muon decay mentioned by Mordred is an example of the above. The muon experiences no acceleration ie is in free fall as it enters the earths atmosphere and it experiences a slowing down of time relative to observers on the ground. Quantum excitations not being accelerated by gravity or any other force last longer. This must alsoi apply to all Quantum fluctuations and excitations in space, not experiencing acceleration.

Does a Photon of light travelling at c experience time, No it doesnt https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Time_dilation

If a person leaves earth at 0.7c for 20  years before returning, how much as said person aged when acceleration and deceleration are taken into account. The above examples ignore acceleration?

Viewing the above as a bungey jump as your speed increases to earth time slows, like a muon, as the elastic takes up the tension you decelerate and experience an increase in the speed of time, if the rope breaks your life ends like the muon, if not you are accelerated back up towards the crane at what feels like a much faster rate than you descended, until you reach the height of your climb when you start on the way back down again.

For the observer on the ground time is not affected for the person doing the bungy jump they experience a decrease in the speed of time followed by an acceleration as the rope becomes taught again.

PS I do not recomend bungey jumping, I dont think it is good for the brain cells having so much blood rush into your head at once.

Edit Biological systems experiencing higher levels of gravity will have higher masses and will have to work harder, and use more energy, joints will ware out faster, and they will experience time ticking at a faster/slower ???? rate. It will feel longer due to the extra work that will have to be done, but may in fact be faster.