koti

53 minutes ago, StringJunky said:

...so it's just easier to follow objective criteria and evidence... nature is what it is.

Exactly my thoughts.

Dragon's Egg - Not a black hole but close, a neutron star with billions times the gravity than Earth, inhabited by tiny creatures who think and live millions times faster than we do.

1 minute ago, Arete said:

The irony of your use of the word "evolve" is quite amusing. 

I knew you’d like it.

Just now, Arete said:

And you have preferred, unbiased collective term for these, or you're expecting them all to be listed each time they are referred to? 

„Conditions” in my opinion is fine. Certainly more accurate than „intermediate states” which might imply to the uninformed that someone with Kinefelter Syndrome will evolve into a final state like larva into a butterfly. 

2 minutes ago, Arete said:

Alright, what's you preferred, non- "PC filtered" term for all intersex conditions?   

Syndromes, deficiencies, mutations, the infographic you posted eariler is pretty clear and easy to understand and those words and phrases are used there.

13 minutes ago, Arete said:

And here I was thinking I was using an collective term, frequently used in the scientific literature to describe the diversity of intersex conditions when I should have been writing them all out as an exhaustive list to avoid being the social justice warrior PC police. Apologies, won't happen again.

A little nudge on a phrase or meaning here or there to catalyze the context into your liking never hurt anyone, right?

34 minutes ago, zapatos said:

Can you tell me who is using a PC filter? I ask because I've not seen either side of the discussion doing that. Any example would be great.

Arete posing syndromes and disorders as "intermediate states" 
 

33 minutes ago, StringJunky said:

Why are we 13 pages up the road if that's true?

Because some of us are filtering the science through a PC filter and some of us refuse to accept that.

6 minutes ago, zapatos said:

Oh, now I get it. 😄

Yeah, I will probably retire when my upvotes get into 200’s in the late 2022’’s if I don’t get banned that is. Afterall, this is the core reason behind this forum, nobody talks about it but the bandwagon and the „Queen” gets to you throuh downvoting and the upvoting - its been years now. 

5 minutes ago, Peterkin said:

I don't know. You must have an underwhelming imagination. 

I saw the OP question and thought I'd throw in something a little less predictable. Sorry if it upset you!

No upset, a nice friday evening uplift in fact. I was here long before you in this music OP btw and I will be long after youre gone.

4 minutes ago, TheVat said:

My reference to The Byrds was a lame attempt to maintain topical relevance.

Back to topic:  Sorry to hear about Bronski.  Too soon.  As a Gershwin fan, I recall Bronski did a tune of theirs, It Ain't Necessarily So, back in the eighties.  I wonder if Bronski influenced The Eurythmics.  Had a similar synth sound.

Eurythmics was about a year later on, Steve Bronski was to Synth Pop what Kraftwerk is to Techno but he was never in the spotlight.

9 minutes ago, zapatos said:

I'm sitting here thinking, 'wasn't I just on the music thread?'

That's pretty cool!

Yeah, the new Bosch washers and dishwashers do that.

57 minutes ago, Peterkin said:

The washing machine. It's been acting funny, or failing to act altogether; it's only 5 years old and we don't have a spare $600 atm. As long as I can hear it grumbling and moaning, I'm content.

Why doesn’t it surprise me that a sad, middle aged woman gets her only turn on from downvoting people on internet forums and not from music. We got a new washing mashine last week btw, it displays its status through LED’s on the floor, its dead quiet and its a bit more than $600. 

Steve Bronski died on December 9th 2021 at the age of 61. He was largely responsible for the emergence of the Synth Pop movement in the early 80's mainly through this wonderful track. This track was one of the reasons I got into music and DJ'ing later in my life, I was 9 when this came out in 1983, it was revolutionary and it started the whole synth pop movement in Europe.
 

10 minutes ago, StringJunky said:

They get there in the end... if they think.

Really?

27 minutes ago, TheVat said:

Fascinating.  Clarity was achieved on the first page of this thread, but it took eleven more pages for it to sink in.  Long live the cyan lizards!  

I’d like to see cheering for the cyan lizards and fighting for keeping them safe, taking care of them but without twisting the meaning of words, bending science so it fits social and pollitical agendas. Utopian but sounds good doesn’t it? 

6 minutes ago, Arete said:

Ok, So a person born with a single X chromosome is not karyotypically male (XY) or female (XX). They have female gonads, and can typically reproduce with fertility treatments, but often display masculine secondary features. Typically, they have a female gender identity, but not always. Ergo, such a person exists in a genotypic/phenotypic state between the general definitions of male and female. The medical diagnosis they would generally be given is that of Turner's Syndrome. 

Yes, they are medical diagnoses of intermediate states. As an analogy most humans have 46 chromosomes. Some have 47. They are typically diagnosed with Downs, Edwards, Patau etc Syndrome - just because there are medical diagnoses for trisomies doesn't mean that ALL humans have 46 chromosomes - because people with 47 chromosomes do exist. 

 Yes I am, and no, it's not about inclusiveness necessarily - it's simply factual accuracy. Intersex people exist, which means that sex is non-binary for a proportion of humans. Stating that they somehow don't count because of the associated diagnoses for these states doesn't make people with Turner's, Klinefelter's AIS etc disappear. 

As I alluded to previously, you wouldn't throw all the cyan lizard specimens out the window just so you could put the lizards into jars labelled blue and green, so why would you do it with human sexes? 

Thank you for clarifying, its all very clear to me, not that it wasn’t clear prior to your posts but at least now we have it all „on paper” Have a great weekend Arete. 

6 hours ago, Arete said:

I mean my first post in the thread contained citations with examples, the infographic contains dozens of examples of intermediate trait states, other threads have included numerous examples... 

If I am to be somewhat presumptive, and I apologize if I'm wrong, if your argument is that these individuals should be excluded based on them being "abnormalities" or "disorders", then yes, I agree that sex becomes binary and fixed if you choose to ignore all of the circumstances in which it doesn't. 

I was asking for an example of the intermediate state which you are talking about as I am not trained in the field of biology and it would be easier for me to understand because,
There is not a single mention of "intermediate state" in the infographic you posted yet you keep mentioning it. The infographic mentions on the other hand, various syndromes, disorders, deficiencies.
You are right in your presumption of my argument, I also apologize if I'm wrong here but are you equating the phrase "intermediate states" with the various syndromes/deficiencies/disorders mentioned in the infographic? If yes, are you doing this to be more inclusive towards the people experiencing these states?

2 minutes ago, StringJunky said:

I was seeking clarity for everybody

Yes, clarity is what we very much want so please let the resident expert answer thank you.

1 minute ago, StringJunky said:

What form should these examples take?

It would be beneficial for everybody if you’d let the expert answer.

Just now, StringJunky said:

You want names?

I want examples.

18 minutes ago, Arete said:

so there are a minority individuals to which the question "Are you male or female?" would be "Neither." 

Which specific individuals are those people? Could you give some examples of what intermediate state or other condition you have in mind so I can better understand?

1 minute ago, Arete said:

No. Conception, birth and puberty are the temporal axis to the chart. 

Understood. So which intermediate states are you reffering to?

18 minutes ago, Arete said:

...intermediate states...

Do you mean puberty for example?

1 hour ago, Phi for All said:

...I had asked if there might be something in the national mood that might have influenced your stance in the same way it did wrt gay rights in the past...

Could you elaborate on the gay rights in the past thing, I don't understand?
 

19 minutes ago, Arete said:

I'm seing 2 sexes with additions of various syndromes, conditions and disorders.