ModernArtist25

If you can organize them so that they don't eat meat as much, surely you can organize them to simply distribute more food.

 

Should people in the western society eat less meat so the other meat can be distributed somewhere else? Will that be possible?

To feed everyone in the world and if everyone has to eat meat, will that take a toll on the planet? Because animal agriculture is the leading cause of species extinction, ocean dead zones, water pollution and habitat destruction.

People often forget that most domesticated animals would fail in the wild. They also forget that humane treatment and lots of food and healthcare are part of the equation. It's not all just "get in my belly", we hopefully honor the relationship more than you're alluding to.

 

I don't know about that...pigs in factory farm live only up to 6 months. Domesticated pet pigs can live up to 20 years but in the wild they live only up to 4 to 8 years old due to predation or injury. And most of the meat sold in grocery stores are a product of inhumane treatment of animals cramped in small spaces treated as commodities to meat the demand of people. Have you seen any videos on factory farming?

 

Many elements went into our advanced intelligence, but it can be argued that the extra time we gained through animal husbandry and agriculture by not having to hunt and gather constantly is what allowed us to actually grow that intelligence meaningfully. But even though our lives are easier, we're still evolved omnivores.

 

I'd say the real question isn't is meat essential, but rather is giving it up essential? Given that our distribution methods for the food we do have is inefficient and under-supported in many parts of the world, perhaps we could change that instead. If we could organize to the degree necessary to all stop eating meat, why can't we organize to get more foodstuffs to those who really need it?

 

But how can we distribute the food more evenly across the globe when people are eating too much meat? People are eating meat in a daily basis and we need grains to feed these animals that we are eating right? Our ancestor didn't even eat this much meat because it takes more time and energy to hunt animals. Even the indigenous people that exist today like the Maasai people only eat meat 1 to 5 times a month, compare that to the average American diet. The Okinawans (the people who live a really long lifespan) ate meat only during festivals or special occasions(only 2% of their diet is meat), they ate a lot of sweet potatoes. Should the government set laws on animal production/agriculture or just maybe increase the price for meat to deter people that eat too much?

We aren't a vegetarian species. We're omnivores. You can't change that just because we aren't distributing food properly.

 

Personally, I don't think we would be as intelligent without portable sources of high-quality protein. Animal husbandry was just as important as agriculture to a species developing keen intelligence.

 

I read somewhere that it's not animal by itself that helped us develop larger brains but cooking have. Cooking made our food more calorie dense and easier to digest so that we have more time and energy to spend using our brain to invent tools. During the prehistoric days, I understand why people need to eat whatever they can find, but in this day and age in Western society where we can just go to the grocery store, is meat really essential? (I'm not a vegan by the way, but I have reduced my meat consumption greatly.)

Do you think someone can be spiritual even if they pay someone to kill an animal so they can eat meat?
What if that person is a millionaire or billionaire and donating to charities all over the world yet still support the suffering of people, animals, and the environment by eating meat? Let's say that a rich person donates to charities that help with climate change and world hunger.

Is this person using his/her money to relieve the symptoms but not necessarily getting to the root of the problem? What do you all think?

Do you guys believe that if everyone goes Vegan or Vegetarian that world hunger can be solved? I read a lot of articles online saying that the grain that animals in factory farms eat can be fed to starving children across the globe instead. But what is happening is we are taking harvest and feeding it to pigs, cows and chickens so that the rich people can have their bacon and steak. To be honest, this makes me feel bad about eating meat.
Sometimes, I just wish I am blinded from the truth so I can eat and just enjoy my food with no guilt.

What the max limit to perfect logic is and what the average amount of logic is varies.

.

Can you please give an example? 😌

Do you think most have above moderate logic? How so?

Which is why the three things I asked for included A: The ability to think logically.

Ravens have that ability.

 

Also, since we can't seem to be able to agree whether it should be intelligent, sentient, etc, we should come up with some way to class animals based on their mental and social abilities. I'm gonna try to come up with a class system. Give me some slack, it's basically so we can have some guidelines. We can change it if need be.

 

Like humans would be a class 5. Not because I think humans are perfect and beat everything, but we have A: The ability to think logically. B: The ability to create language. C: The ability to feel emotion. D: The ability to question our own orgins. E: A lot of other things. Either way, here goes.

 

Animal Conscientiam Classes

 

Class 1 Animal: Little to no logical ability, no ability to communicate, operates mainly on instinct.

 

Class 2 Animal: Small to little logical ability, little to no ability to communicate, Sometimes reasons against instinct.

 

Class 3 Animal: Moderate logical ability, small ability to communicate, Can reason against instinct, little to no emotions.

 

Class 4 Animal: Large to Moderate logical ability, moderate ability to communicate, doesn't rely on instinct, has emotions.

 

Class 5 Animal: Large logical ability, Ability to communicate with a complex language, doesn't rely on instinct, has emotions.

 

 

Now to clear some things up.

 

A complex language can include sign language, but it has to have nouns, adjetives, verbs, etc. Even ancient languages, simple as they were compared to today, would easily be considered a complex language. A moderate ability to communicate can include Apes, which some have been taught some sign language. While not overly complex, it's a fairly decent ability to communicate. Dogs, I would say have small ability to communicate. They whine when they want something, bark to signal somethings up, they have play bows, etc. Fish I would say have little to no ability to communicate. Maybe I'm wrong, correct me here. And for no ability to communicate, I'd say worms or germs. Stuff like that.

 

As for the instinct part. I didn't say humans have no instincts. I said we can reason against them, and we do on a fairly common basis. The strongest instincts obviously, like fear, is a different matter. Other animals, like snakes, rely on instinct much more.

 

I'd also say, any animal capable of using a complex language, would be considered a class 5.

 

.

This is very interesting. I do have a question, in which class do humans with down syndrome fall under??

Good communication, intimacy, and both parties supporting each other to reach their highest potential. ☺

Are you sure that everyone agrees that bring carnivorous is the reason the earth is being destroyed?

Or that it even is being destroyed? And perhaps not just amidst a cyclical warming trend?

I, for one, certainly do not know any of that. And I'm a Biologist.

So, please enlighten me. Tell us why everything would be fine if we all became vegetarians. And disprove the cyclical theory for climate change.

In your own words. I think it's against the rules here to lead a thread with a video link and to hinge your entire argument on it as well.

Thanks!

Oops, sorry I didn't know we can't use video links. I will have to read the rules again

Well we can't ignore when scientists and climate experts say that climate change is the biggest global health threat right now. And I am pretty sure scientists have considered, studied, and ruled out "natural cycle." I don't think Earth warms up because it feels like it, something must cause it. Raising livestock requires large amount of energy for refrigeration, transportation, etc. Cattle produce methane gas which warms the planet 23 times more than CO2. Are you sure you're a biologist? With simple google search, one can find that animal agriculture is one of the major causes of global warming.

I saw this "Eating our Way to Extinction" video on fb: https://www.facebook.com/upliftconnect/videos/1012079985595649/?pnref=story

 

Since we know that eating meat contributes to most of what is destroying our Earth, can a meat eater call him or herself environmentalist?

No.They don't have an evolved enough brain. They can experience stress but it's not the same. I've caught lots of fish where, when I let go to release them, they just sidle off leisurely like nothing happened. I saw a video once of a fish that got bitten in half, leaving the head half, and it was still swimming side-to-side, at a moderate pace, as though nothing had happened.

What if they just respond to pain differently from us?? I saw some articles online that some scientists believe they feel pain

 

 

You can release a fish. Killing is not necessary

But doesn't the hook hurt the fish??

Can't humans just stick to 3d printing organs rather than making animals suffer?

 

Are you speaking of the homo genus? Habilus? Erectus? Early sapiens? Neanderthals?

 

Or are we going back some 4 Mya to a. Afarensis? There have been over twenty subspecies of genus homo. However, there would be every reason to think that suicide rates would escalate as the human brain, and in turn, it's software we call the mind, evolved. This, since its attendant emotions evolved with it. That is, the sheer number and complexity of these emotions, or affects. States of mind. Included here is of course fear and anxiety and hopelessness and depression. Al those being not uncommon precursors to suicide attempts or ideations.

Cro-magnons I meant...when you sat evolved, do you believe that since humans got smarter, we began commiting suicide?

There are known examples of committing suicide by animals.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Animal_suicide

It says that there were cases when dogs kill themselves by starving to death after their owners died. But were the dogs aware that by not eating, they will die?

Not so sure how credible these are but here are some articles about our ancestors and "modern" diseases:

 

http://shanghai.ufh.com.cn/4423/health-information/articles/what-our-ancestors-can-teach-us-about-preventing-cardiovascular-disease

 

http://science.sciencemag.org/content/326/5959/1478.full?ijkey=T4z4LKoVg016U&keytype=ref&siteid=sci

 

http://www.express.co.uk/life-style/health/558667/Caveman-diet-slash-risk-heart-disease

I've seen articles stating that cavemen didn't have heart disease or cancer, or other diseases people have now...how were people able to find that out? Is there actual evidence from preserved bones or something else??

 

 

your point arises another consideration, could it be possible that suicide grew after the rise of agriculturization?

Hmm...I would say after the rise of technology and computers, we maybe electronically connected but emotionally disconnected

CharonY, why can't we find data? Shouldn't technology be advanced enough to find out how our ancestors got killed? Or maybe not

..

NimrodtheGoat, could it be possible that our ancestors didn't have time to think about killing themselves because they were too busy killing others to protect their resources or land?

Did our caveman ancestors commit suicide or where they just happier than we are now? since suicide rates are on the rise

The ban wasn't a surprise to the countries on the list...most of the people from those countries who apply for Visa so they can live in the US, 97% chance they get rejected. So America always had something against Muslims, only thing the ban did was made it public.

Do you believe animals have metacognition? Some studies shown that macaque monkeys and dolphins might have them. If so, does metacognition require the species to have a language not limited to sounds and gestures in able to identify or be aware of their thoughts and feelings? I am curious what are your opinions on this...

Not sure how a happy orca look like. But a big cat who is bored or depressed will probably pace back and forth or in circles, or grooms itself excessively until it loses some of its fur.

How about this for a dilemma?

 

Our local zoo is Loro Park, Tenerife. Originally kept parrots (Loro in Spanish) and has hundreds of different species. Now has a brilliant penguin enclosure with artificial snow etc etc. They have dolphins, sea lions, but they also have orcas, and this is the problem. These creatures are kept in what must be aquatic cages - pretty big but woefully inadequate for these enormous animals.

 

I've seen their display several times, and it is spectacular. The crowd is enchanted every time. Wonderful PR for the species. And yet I feel immensely sad seeing them in conditions which are so different from their natural habitat. Despite the love and care provided by their devoted keepers, it probably amounts to cruelty keeping them like that. It is generally accepted that they would not survive in the wild - born in captivity and so on. What is to be done?

 

There is only so much space you can give aquatic animals, I understand why it can be pretty sad watching those animals that originally come from what makes up 71% of the Earth. You said you have seen their display several times, did the animals look at all happy?