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Posts posted by ModernArtist25


    For context here is my argument:



    And my question:



    My point is, your decision to became a vegan doesn't give you the moral high ground, anyone with good moral compass does whatever they can to do there bit, to try not to damage our world and they have roughly the same affect as you do; if you want the high ground, you've got to earn it.


    Vitamin B12 is not made by plants and not made by animals either. Its made by little microbes that blanket the earth. So, humans, you know, used to get all b12 needed presumably from drinking out of well water or mountain streams, but now we use chlorinated water supply to kill off any bacteria, so, we dont get a lot of B12 in our water anymore. We dont get a lot of cholera either, thats a good thing! But now that we live in a sanitized world, again, a good thing, and were not like our primate cousins, eating bugsfeces all day, vegans got to get B12 from somewhere. Farmers supplement animals with vitamin b12 but what vegans do is just take the supplements themselves. I don't know if the world would go vegan but I know that nobody probably thought slavery would end or that killing people at the arena for entertainment would be stopped.


    Is it not unnatural for any adult to drink milk at all? I can't think of another mammal that naturally needs to continue drinking milk after being weaned.


    Gosh you have a point there!

  2. We are not meant to eat or drink anything.

    We are omnivorous, we eat whatever is available and we can digest.

    Milk is very nutritious so if you can digest it...why not?

    I drink at least 600ml milk a day.


    Veganists also don't wear cloths with animal products in.

    My sister who is a fitness trainer said when her clients complain of bloating, she recommends them to stop consuming dairy milk and other dairy products and they notice the positive effects immediately including less bloating. I also experienced the same thing with the bloating, I was drinking whey protein shakes and dairy milk almost every morning and once I replaced them with plantbased protein shake and almond milk, my waist is a lot smaller mostly all through out the day. I still eat meat though but had greatly reduced it. And I buy from a farm that raise animals ethically. And if for whatever reason I can't afford ethically raised meat, I would be on a well planned plant-based diet. I have a lot of respect for vegans, gosh I don't know how they can just completely eliminate meat from their diet, it tastes so good. I don't know if I can do it. But I do know that our food choices affect how we will leave Earth for the future generations.


    America's best Olympic weightlifter is a vegan, I know how physically strong we are have something to do with our genes too, but daaaammmn:




    I required formula myself. Not all babies can tolerate milk.

    Hmmm...I met a parent who told me that at first she thought her baby was allergic to breastmilk but when she stopped eating dairy products, the baby's allergy to her breastmilk had went away. Humans are probably not meant to drink cow's milk but their own mother's milk.


    This is probably at the heart of the problem, none of us are. I've known people who thrived as vegetarians, and others who broke out in sores and looked horrible. I know someone who was vegetarian and overweight for decades, and is now a hundred pounds lighter by dropping potatoes and grains and adding bacon to her veg diet.


    It's probably not smart to dictate that everyone eat a certain way.

    Yea, just because a person is a vegan doesn't mean they are fit. There are fat vegans and fat meat eaters. There are vegans out there who still eat packaged junk food. Also eating too much potatoes and rice gets you fat too. One of my co-workers who is a vegan used to have a lot of weight around his mid-section but when he reduced his rice, pasta and potatoes consumption and replaced them with a bit more lentils and quinoa, his weight dropped and had flatter stomach.


    Also, there is a difference between vegans and vegetarians. Vegetarians eat dairy and eggs, vegans don't consume any animal product at all. Consuming too much dairy milk can also make people as fat as a cow.

  4. I think you'll find I said "a well balanced diet" by which I mean a 'natural' well balanced diet; we wouldn't want to loose the ability to extract it.

    Humans have been getting their B12 from the dirt for hundreds of thousands of years by eating plants that still had bits of soil on them. Today however, we wash our fruits and veggies so well (and understandably so) that we no longer consume dirt or proper levels of B12.

    Farmers supplement the animals with vitamin b12. While vegans take the vitamin themselves since they don't eat meat.

  5. Have you ever been in 'less developed' countries?

    In area's where it's too dry/cold/warm/wet for sufficient edible green stuff there is often a lot of (edible) fauna...including insects. In Ghana for example the eating of bugs is an important part of the diet.


    I don't think veganism is ethical justified. Its imo a lot more important to fill the belly of your children and keep them as healthy as possible then to feed them vegan.

    How about you? Where do you live and do you yourself have access to the grocery store?


    The point is, you'll never convert the world to a vegetarian diet (never mind a vegan diet); meat tastes too good and is beneficial to a well balanced diet, as it contains vitamin B12.


    Do you know that farmers supplement their animals with vitamin b12? So what vegans do is supplement that vitamin to themselves instead of killing the animals that's been given vitamin b12 to satisfy their taste buds.

  7. By going vegan, people can reduce the impact of climate change, rainforest destruction, and pollution, while saving water and other precious resources. In fact, raising animals for food produces more greenhouse gas emissions than all of the cars, planes, and other forms of transportation combined. Vegans have my respect. :)


    Facts on how animal agriculture affects the world that we live in:


  8. No guilt here because I only support farms that raise their animals ethically. The animals gave up their lives for us like you said, least we can do is treat them with respect during their short life. And if I ever am not able to afford ethically raised meat, I would rather be a vegan than support cruel factory farms.


    Here are a few farms offering ethically raised meat:






    Unlike Perdue or Tyson, these farms also allow people to visit their place... if you are still wary of how animals are raised.

  9. Nothing spiritual on how they handle and treat animals here while they are still alive, Tyson meat farm:




    Perdue factory farm:



    I didn't see humane treatment or Healthcare there, just suffering.

  10. Some questions:

    Is it ok to swat a mosquito or to poison rats or vermin?


    Is it ok to own a pet cat? Compared to how they kill their prey, farm animals have it pretty fine in the worst of slaughter houses.


    Is it ok to accidentally step on a bug, seriously damaging them but not killing them, leaving them for a long and agonizing death struggle?


    Citation needed.


    No, the factory farm animals don’t have it pretty fine. These animals live in horrifying conditions where they have feces and urine all over the place that produce ammonia in the air causing them to be blind. These animals are fed to be so big that they have joint issues and can barely walk. They don’t get to feel the wind breeze, get in contact with mother’s earth’s ground or see the sunlight, only time they do is when they are being transported to the slaughterhouse in a truck with no food or water for their long travel. Sorry, I don’t see this as a good life. Do your research on factory farming, and you will see that this type of farming is completely different from how it was back in the old days. Back in the traditional farms, people actually cared about the animals during the time that they were living and not just treating them as products in a factory.


    I figured you had no plan to deal with existing animals. It's always "Everyone needs to stop killing animals!" and then you seem content to just let nature take its brutal, uncalculated course. These are animals I pledged to honor with my bartering and vigilant demands for their humane treatment as they're slaughtered for my continued existence. Unlike you, I understand we wouldn't be here without them, and that we haven't outgrown our need for them.


    Do you get your meat from farms that raise them ethically? Have you done your research on these farms or visited their location? Commercial meat which is 98% of what you see in the grocery store is a product of suffering and torture. Do you know that farms that raise animals ethically let the animals out in the pasture all day and they do not castrate them(they get to keep the parts they are born with)? Do you know that they let animals have sex the traditional way (a bull and a cow), no force, and no artificial insemination? Oh yes, our prehistoric ancestors needed them but in this day and age where you have access to the grocery store, there is no need to binge on meat. Especially meat that come from factory farms where they treat animals cruelly.

  12. Vegetarianism/veganism seems to be an affliction of well-to-do people in affluent countries ( and spoilt kids who think they are saving the world ).

    Poor people in the rest of the world will eat whatever they can get their hands on.


    Where would you find your vegan staples in sub-Saharan Africa ? The outback of Australia ? the Polynesian islands ? And numerous other places ?

    The grocery store ?

    Where would you find the grocery store ?


    Okay, I'm talking about just people who have access to the grocery store, which is mostly everyone in Western society. I know people who are on a plant based diet and they said it is a lot cheaper than buying meat. Meat is expensive compare to legumes, lentils, rice and potatoes. I know people who were taking 8 pills a day and once they converted to plant based diet, they did not need to take the pills anymore. But I think that someone who is eating very little meat but mostly plant based diet can still thrive without worrying about obesity, diabetes, artery disease or heart disease.


    It's not that you can't find them, it's that they would be such high demand the prices would shoot through the roof. Do you think you could live your life on rice? Corn? Wheat? not a chance... Humans need complete proteins, vitamins, and minerals only found easily is animal products. Can you imagine how expensive nuts would be if everyone had to eat enough of them to be healthy without meat? Human nutrition is complex, you can't live on nothing but bread...


    Actually you can find those essential amino acids and protein found in meat in food such as hemp seeds, chia seeds, quinoa, legumes, lentils, and etc. According to American Dietetic Association(nutritional experts), a well-planned vegetarian diets are appropriate for individuals during all stages of the life cycle, including pregnancy, lactation, infancy, childhood, and adolescence, and for athletes.




    But yea, meat tastes good, we can't just give it up. Maybe reduction is a start. It's good for health, for the planet and for the animals.

  13. As you have discovered, there are unabashed meat eaters here. ATM we probably could feed the world with current food output. But, having enough food doesn't seem to be the issue. In the US, far more food is tossed into the trash than is needed to feed the hungry. Yet, the GOP congress wants to stop programs that feed children and the elderly. The US can afford it, but the 400 wealthiest people in the US want billions of dollars in tax cuts, and they are happy to see people starve to death to get the tax cuts. When humans become angels, everyone will eat.


    So you don't think reducing meat consumption would help with world hunger at all?

    Here are info links and citations on how meat affect the planet that we live in:












    Do you honestly believe that animal agriculture does not negatively affect the planet and the people in it in any way?



    So you would have billions of people die from malnutrition with in years if not months? To survive on a vegan diet takes some pretty special plants and they are not easy to grow in large quantities. Of course that would solve the build up of the feces and urine of billions of humans..



    A well planned vegan diet doesn't just contain veggies. Along with veggies, vegans also eat beans, rice, potatoes, pasta, bread, seeds, nuts, fruits, non-dairy milk.


    Where do you come up with this nonsense? Coyotes regularly raid henhouses where I live, so if you remove the security and leave them to fend for themselves, what exactly do you think would happen?


    If what you said was true, if the farms left the gates open all the animals would run away and never come back. What actually happens is that most would come back because of the food and shelter and lack of predators.


    Freedom is a human concept. For an animal, the only lack of freedom that matters is holding them down or trapping their legs. The kind of abstract freedom you're foisting upon them is NOT within their intellectual capabilities. You're an anthropomorphist.

    That's strange...why would you just let out billions of farm animals free to roam around out of nowhere? The reason why we have billions of farm animals is because humans keep breeding them for food.

    According to studies, hogs in the wild usually live from 4 to 8 years old. That's much longer than they would in factory farming. I can't believe that you think by confining animals and not letting them see the light of day to enjoy life, you are actually doing something good for them. Obviously animals are not happy being in the factory farm environment and that's why they are given Prozac for depression.


    Tyson meat farm:




    Perdue factory farm:


  15. Yes, it turned out that cooking is actually healthier for us. But grains are not healthier for the farm animals. Grain-based diets can produce serious and sometimes fatal digestive tract problems in food animals such as cows, goats, and sheep whose stomachs are best suited to digesting high-cellulose containing plants like grass. If the animals have cognitive abilty, do you think they rather live a life with freedom, have a chance to mate, and eat varied food natural to them and then die painfully, OR live in a prison where they are confined in small space, never mate, never see the light of day, and grow unnaturally more than their bodies can handle and then later killed?



    When you say environmentally friendly are you taking into account that it would be far more difficult to grow protein without eating animals to feed the entire world? We can and often to raise animals on land that is not fit to raise plant crops on, the grain used to feed animals is not as nutritious as eating the animals.


    Veganism would mean far fewer humans could live on the earth...

    What I meant was producing more meat would mean increasing our carbon footprint. More meat to feed the world would mean more deforestation and more animals losing their habitats. That's also more toxic chemicals getting into our waterways and air due to manure and urine from billions of animals. Animal agriculture is responsible for 18% of the total release of greenhouse gases world-wide (this is more than all the cars, trucks, planes, and ships in the world combined).Producing a single hamburger uses enough fuel to drive 20 miles and causes the loss of five times its weight in topsoil. I know it is hard to accept the truth about meat because we love the taste so much.

  17. Phil, animals in factory farms are castrated with no painkillers. These animals are fed grains(not what they naturally eat in the wild which cause digestive issues) so they can get fatter as soon as possible so they can be killed. They are imprisoned in cramp spaces where they step on their manure and urine all day. Yes abusing animal induces stress and affect quality of meat. Have you ever tasted an ethically raised meat? Compare it to your local grocery store meat? Texture and taste is different. How do you know these animals wouldn't have lives at all in the wild? They would get freedom and that's what most living creatures want. I am not a vegan but I am very conscious about where my meat came from.

  18. Yes, I am selfish because I only care about my tastebuds. I don't care about starving children all over the world or how our earth will be left for future generations. Because I love the taste of burgers.


    When you say easily add, you mean produce more meat? Is that environmentally friendly?

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