fredreload

Right well, I call false on life creation

Some of us have the ability to do so, others not. Some of us that have the ability choose not to, for many reasons. The word 'should' is the problem - this suggests some moral obligation. The planet is not short of people.

I haven't thought of any ethical concerns really, nor is there a law imposed on life creation, but I respect your idea

P.S. Well then my focus would be on transferring and studying ilfe(observing, scanning)

I've posted this question on another forum, but I feel that I can gather some information here as well, so here goes.

If you are given the ability to create life, do you think you should do it? Well, I'm not talking about like taking care of an egg and have it grows into a chicken, but like create life as it is. It can be anything from ant to possibly a human being. Personally I think creating life is not the same as killing it, so maybe it should be allowed? What are your guys thoughts on it? I agree that creating life on a computer or sort, many things can go wrong. Creating life and destroying it can be done in the blink of an eye and in vast quantities. So should it be regulated?

P.S. By the way the life you created inside a computer might never die = =

Looks like these guys here are working on the same thing I'm going after. I wonder how they tell if a fish is happy

Right, I'm focusing on the ions, you know, nerve impulse consists of sodium and potassium ions and that's precisely what I want to get a clear picture of. Not on an atomic level, by observing the flow of these ions I can hopefully get a general function of each of the neuron

Why do you dismiss existing instrumentation? Why do you think that size and/or tracers are limiting? How do you even think that lasers would be of any help (think in terms of penetration, volumes to be scanned, time frames, type of date, etc.). Why does the flow needs to be measured on the molecular scale in the first place?

Hi, well the existing instrumentation does not show the brain in molecular detail as I want. The size is limiting because even the best MRI, as I found, cannot get brain image in molecular detail. Well an attosecond laser is able to observe the motion of an electron in detail so I thought it would be useful in observing molecular detail, that's speculation on my part. Well to observe the brain in a molecular scale helps understand the connection, memory, and function that makes up the brain

P.S. And I believe it grants digital immortality

I've been looking into various brain scanners and there hasn't been one where it shows the brain at a molecular scale. I want a brain scanner that can perceive the flow of sodium and potassium in the brain as well as possibly all the neuronal synapses. I am not sure if such an invention is held back by ethical reasons, but right by all means it should be non invasive. MRI's scale is too big and you need an extremely powerful magnetic field to top that. PET scan requires you to dye the subject. My bet is on femtosecond and attosecond laser, but even then they require some fine tuning. Anyone got any idea on when a scanner of such a scale would be developed?

Maybe some type of circuit verification technique? Something we learned in school can be applied here.

P.S. Right but memory is not stored as 0 and 1s, it's also stored as gates I think

Hmm, the chart is used for visual analysis by the human for inputs and outputs. But even then it would be kind of hard to do it visually, I think some type of analysis needs to be made for the binaries for inputs and outputs to inspect its functions (amplification, signal of pain, or happiness). It is out of my scope for now, if you guys have more information on how analysis can be done for inputs and outputs do let me know, I just thought visualizing it is easier to tell instead of 0 and 1s, or maybe as numbers

Google has given me the idea to plot the adder circuit as a chart, god they are geniuses(or maybe John came up with it). Anyway it seems the adder circuit can be converted to a 2 dimensional chart here. Then there could be a 3 dimensional or higher dimensional chart for other functions

I figured out that you can compare the inputs and outputs of a neuron to find the function of the gate. A 2 inputs 1 output or gate would have an input of 00 to get an output of 0 and 01 or 11 to get an output of 1. So by comparing the inputs and outputs of a gate you can find out what the gate does, but can you tell the function of the gate by looking at the adder circuit here(Answer:it adds two binary numbers together)? How about from the inputs and outputs alone, figure out both what it does and its functions here from two inputs and one output(Right, the second way makes more sense in solving the function).

The fastest supercomputer is in China which does computing at about 33.86 petaflops per second (3.386*10^16).

Ionno man, I'd observe based on the outputs, like record outputs for an entire day. But how in the world do you even know what that output is just from the logic gates without being that person? Like I'm feeling sad right now because it is running through the or gate, that's some crazy integrated circuit I'm telling you 0000 = sad, 0001 = happy, 0002 = angry, 0003 = love. So right, even if you get the states you still need to get the functions, like two half adders adds the number together, anyone knows how to get that function just from the logic gates?

I'm looking at it similar to computer architecture. I'd imagine consciousness to be similar to an operating system constantly polling for inputs or interrupts. If someone has an idea on how operating system is stored in the hardware, boot up through BIOS, loaded, how it operates, and how it check for interrupts such as keyboard or mouse, feel free to let me know. I took an operating system course back in university, just that I didn't have much clues back then.

Hmm, after thinking about it 2^1100 is the max number we have to work with here since all we have to do is identify individual neuron to see what kind of electronic gate component it resembles. For instance it could be an Or gate or and And gate. It is just a gate with 1100 inputs or outputs. After that we can combine it with other gates to form integrated circuit. Then we have the output of the gate such as anger, joy, sadness form by integrated circuit. Is decoding by the outputs available an easier way? (like Transcendence the move?) Can't really say

This is where a quantum computer comes in? Anyone know how that thing works?

@Op: Is this in relation to a programming class?

It's not a programming class, but I'd like to explore the problem both from a programming perspective and mathmatical perspective. For programming, right pretty much as Endy's said, using the least amount of time and most efficient way to solve this huge problem, if solvable. For mathmatics I'm looking for a way to reduce this equation. The problem is about computation of neurons an its synapses for all possible states. Each synapse has a binary state of either on with electrical signal running or off with no signal running. The max number of synapses I found that connects to a single neuron is 1100 (one thousand and one hundred) synapses. Therefore with a possible on and off states this neuron would contain a total of 2^1100 states. Now if You stack this single neuron with another neuron, the states increment like this. Imagine another neuron with 5 synapses connect to it, it would have a total of 2^5 states. The total states of this neuron and the previous 1100 synapses neuron would be ( 2^1100 * 2^5 = 2^(1100+5) ). Now it's just a matter of adding another billion neurons and you have something like 2^(1100*1 billion) states if every neuron has 1100 synapses. I'm not sure if such a number is crunchable and if there is a way to reduce it. I'd like to hear what you guys think

I need an efficient way to calculate 2 to the power of N possibilities. The number N would be something like 1100, where there are 1100 bits (one thousand and one hundred bits), so that makes it 2^1100 possibilities. I want to design a program that would allow me to loop through every single possibilities, unfortunately 2^1100 is too big of a number. So, how should I go about tackling this problem from a mathmatical, statistical point of view?

A computer is a very poor analogue of the brain. Neural networks are perhaps slightly better, but still pretty crude.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Artificial_neural_network

Interesting, I know that neuron takes binary inpust simply because 0 no signal or 1 there is a signal, but the states it contains could be numerous. There is also a mix of analogue neurons, like pain level, pinch hard more pain. I thought these needs to be classified out. Neural network is definitely an interesting idea, take into account of binary inputs and timing then it might just be what I am looking for, and you made the entire brain 2d?

Hmm, I'm not sure how to explain this but I got something to add. Pretty much with have the inputs and the outputs based on the brain scan at a molecular level and you are trying to guess the function it does. Much like this, how computer adds number, and you are trying to guess the two half adders and what can go wrong from there. It's all very vague right now but it's a start

Alright, so consciousness is an output, and this output is feed back into the input as a loop

So from my previous post I've mentioned about how human brain should be able to be decoded into known functions. What I am doing here is to make a comparison between computers and the human brain. Bear with me for a second. So I came across this video. I know it's overused in various places, but the first part where the cover is lifted shows the circuitry of the CPU at run time, and I followed the site to the actual javascript simulation here. The right side shows how this model reads data and instructions from memory. Now this is purely from the hardware perspective. Here I present a portal from Blue Brain Project in showing how neurons run different data. So here you see a similarity between the CPU and the human brain and how data is interpreted. So the human brain might be able to be translated to the address and instructions on the right side of the CPU simulation, but to be honest I haven't really gotten that far. I thought this could be interesting so I am presenting it here. If someone do get the interest in cracking the human mind or explain the CPU javascript simulation feel free to let me know

All I have to say: http://bfy.tw/6O7K

 

Fudge, the 40th one down is subtitled 'more than 40 years of research'!!!! I can't help but feel you didn't look very hard at all.

Well I suppose you are right that brain plasticity is caused by stimulus in certain brain region causing the neurons to create new connections. What I would like to find out is what this new connection entail. For instance, if this particular neuron forms a new connection with the adjacent neuron what does that connection mean? The way of finding this new form connection might be predicted through decoding the brain connections as I mentioned. Well, or maybe the brain does branch randomly according to a stimulus location. If this is done right we can say, create connections here there and there and I learned math, or here there and there and I learned science, or driving a helicopter like the movie Matrix, or gain certain memory. It's like you wake up one day and know something right away. Is the stimulus chemical based? Or the electrical signal causing the stimulus? I suppose there are still many things we should look into, but anyway, thanks for the heads up

Learning how to read and research your own questions in the scientific literature is a valuable skill; this seems like a perfect time for you to learn or practice it. I guarantee that many people have looked into these types of questions, you would do well to read what they have already discovered rather than just spitballing on your own. 'On the shoulders of giants' and all that, ya know?

I agree I should do more research, but there really aren't much topic over this area. As you have seen from my previous post regarding brain scan, one can't really get a detailed molecular image over the entire brain yet. On the other hand the brain plasticity have only just begun to get popularity recently. I've read an article which compared neuron to a transistor and the brain as a computer, but I haven't really found any attempts on decoding this grand architecture. You know, convert neuron to logic gates with binary inputs and outputs and decode this information. And then there is the validity of such information, what would the logic gate of pain looks like and what would its connections be. Not every two brains might have the same connections but they generally do look like a brain, or they look the same, so maybe a generalized mapping can be applied to these brains and its connections? The study over this area just seems a bit slow. I am aware of the blue brain project, but I am not sure if they are going about decoding the models, they are simply building the brain models. The NEST simulator is a bit slow, an ideal simulator should probably be ran with GPU. It took the K computer 40 minutes to simulate the brain with a NEST software, still an extraordinary feat. So the main area of focus should be to build a good molecular scanner for the brain for observation and to begin decoding the brain in terms of logic gates. I don't even know about brain plasticity at this point, but a good enough molecular scanner should be able to track these changes

So, I want information or algorithm on brain plasticity simulation. My guess is it is related to short term memory because you are constantly changing the shape of the brain based on your observation of the environment. Since the brain does not store information like a hard drive with 0 and 1 bit, the brain stores memory by making connections with adjacent neurons. So my guess is your observation of the surroundings is stored through brain plasticity by changing the shape of the brain through making connections. That's how I am able to remember the things I see. For instance, I see a bird, my brain does not store it as 0 and 1s but rather stored through neuron making connections with adjacent neurons so I can later recall this bird that I saw. I've read somewhere that there are research being done on brain plasticity. To be honest, in order to understand brain plasticity and memory you probably have to figure out what each connection within the brain does to get the whole picture. But a research suggests that by increasing the blood flow and neuronal activity within certain area of the brain causes the neuron to branch and connect to the nearest neuron. So maybe such a thing can be simulated with algorithms without worrying about how memory is stored, which I think is rather unsafe. My speculation on how brain's memory could be interpreted will be in my next post if I get the time to do it. Anyway, any discussion on brain plasticity is welcomed here

I know at very low temperature a Bose Einstein Condensate is form through laser cooling

I studied a bit about membrane transport, it's ions balances between the inside and outside of the cell is maintained by active pumps powered by ATP. I came across this while looking into prosthetics, but it is how nerve transport signals

So I'm looking for a way to scan brain tissue at a molecular level, one where you can see not only neurons but individual synapses and observe nerve signal firing. Through my research I found out that the most powerful MRI is able to get to a resolution of 1000 neurons with increased magnetic field and radio signals. As you know only radio signal or tetrahertz signal wavelength is able to penetrate the skin. The other possible solution I found is by injecting a virus that carries the gene for creating solar roof panel like light sensitive protein on the neuronal cell and observe the electromagnetic pulse. Of course you need to be looking inside the brain to capture this light. So I've thought of another idea being the potassium MRI scan which observes the potassium ions inside the brain, again the resolution is still not high enough on the molecular level, and of course it requires a magnetic field too which might cause discomfort. There is another method that I found which is through attosecond laser spectroscopy, but I'm not sure how detailed that would get, and the level of discomfort, keep in mind that we want to be alive with minimum discomfort when doing the scanning, that would help a lot of dreamers. So with these ideas in mind I want to know if there is a more optimized way of scanning the brain with molecular detail without causing too much discomfort. If any research is being done toward this area let me know as well, thanks!