fredreload

Alright Strange, the consciousness cannot be digital circuit because digital circuit only has two states, 0 or 1. If you do believe consciousness to be digital circuit then you will have to agree that the state will change, For instance I got a current(1) and no current(0) passing through an AND gate and you get no current(0) out, then a clock cycle later I got current(1) current(1) and get a current(1) out. You have to agree that for a digital circuit, after running for every clock cycle you perform an operation with the CPU either reading in bits or writing bits. If you want to check how cpu works here is a good video showing that. Now you could argue, what if the computer never change state, well if it never change state it does nothing, you get a loop circuit and a voltage out for light like a simple analogue circuit here.

Now why can't consciousness exist in binary states when you got all that ions (nerve signals) flowing in the brain. Well, let's say I have consciousness only, no thoughts, no sound, no hearing, no any senses. My consciousness remain the same at all time, let's say falling asleep without dreaming, you get a black screen, only your consciousness. Do you feel that this consciousness jumps from 0 to 1 to 2 to 3 and changes state from current(1) current(1) to no current(0) current(1)? No it doesn't, it stays constant in my mind without changing states even though all those ions are flowing around assuming data is being changed.

Could it be running something that doesn't change state? It could be, that would be an analogue circuit.

So it's either some constant supply of voltage or electromagnetic field. I'm taking a wild guess here because I read the electromagnetic field and voltage theory before, prove me wrong if I am

So right, the state or data can't change, get your Chinese tech together

 

 

You keep saying this. It is patently false.

 

Can you explain what you mean by this statement. Perhaps you mean something different by "consciousness" than I would expect.

 

In what way do you consider consciousness to be "uniform" and not change state?

 

 

 

 

Consciousness doesn't pass through a logic gate, any more than music or 3D graphics does. It is a consequence of the operation of billions of "logic gates" (in the same way that the function of a computer program is the result of the operation of millions of transistors).

 

 

It is not a hard term to describe. It is precisely specified.

You might be able to program consciousness, but logic gates are not conscious. I don't see how consciousness could be functional. Like after a billion logic gates the computer suddenly become conscious. I still respect your views

Something like a conch shell resonance effect?

Hmm, technically what I mean by life is the creation of a nervous system. You can feel and have a sense of being alive with a nervous system, whereas bacteria and similar organisms that does not have a nervous system does not have a sense of self or awareness. So if digital immortality is real and you create life in a computer, who is to decide when to terminate their lives? Keep in mind that they could be immortals

So do you look at the leakage and pressure or at individual water molecules?

Well hmm, knowing that they are ions I probably wouldn't care as much because they are the same. Chemical synapse shouldn't matter much either. The flow is important because you need to know which function is activated, let it be hearing, visual, or other sense, each activates a different flow of the ions. Well, if you know circuitry better than me then you can tell me if the circuits exist in the brain is analogue of digital, last time I read somewhere both type of circuits exist in the brain. So to understand the flow you understand the functions of the circuits

Although I'm really stuck on the idea about voltage though, can voltage give rise to life?

This animation really helps me understand nerve impulse a lot and here is an explanation on voltage gated ion channel.

P.S

The reason I believe consciousness is not function is because consciousness cannot change state. If you assume a logic gate for consciousness, both current and voltage will have to change. If you assume your consciousness to be in state 1, once it pass through the logic gate it would be in state 2 and your voltage and current changes and you no longer have consciousness. That leaves analogue circuit as the available option. Here is analogue circuit.

"The signals take any value from a given range, and each unique signal value represents different information. Any change in the signal is meaningful, and each level of the signal represents a different level of the phenomenon that it represents. For example, suppose the signal is being used to represent temperature, with one volt representing one degree Celsius. In such a system 10 volts would represent 10 degrees, and 10.1 volts would represent 10.1 degrees."

Now this is where it gets tricky, some people suggest that the structure of the brain causes the analogue circuits to create life in a form of voltage. I can't really argue against that simply because voltage is a hard term to describe. And you will need an available analogue device to convince me of that. Aside from this available option we also have the electromagnetic field induced water molecule for the quantum theory here.

"The concepts underlying this theory derive from the physicists, Hiroomi Umezawa^[14] and Herbert Fröhlich^[15] in the 1960s. More recently, their ideas have been elaborated by Mari Jibu and Kunio Yasue. Water comprises 70% of the brain, and quantum brain dynamics (QBD) proposes that the electric dipoles of the water molecules constitute a quantum field, referred to as the cortical field, with corticons as the quanta of the field. This cortical field is postulated to interact with quantum coherent waves generated by the biomolecules in neurons, which are suggested to propagate along the neuronal network."

So it's up to you guys to tell me which one is more likely to be the one

There's an EM field produced by opposite charges.

Care to elaborate on that? I sent you a mail too D:

Well then strange, explain this to me, if I swap the ions in the brain with water molecules, are we still conscious? I am not being sarcastic here, but clearly there is an electrical property at work in the brain. I have to agree that computer also gives a functional perspective, as well as the current generates a magnetic field, but computer is not conscious. You are arguing that the functional perspective of the circuit gives rise to consciousness, well the circuit only generates current and voltage. And neither of that gives rise to consciousness, you'll have to elaborate on the functional perspective to convince me. Or give an example of how analogue circuit could give rise to consciousness

Precisely; consciousness is a collective expression of brain function, arising from separate and distinct neuronal groups, through a concert of electrochemical exchanges,

Looks like you solved the last piece of this puzzle, hmm, but why is electromagnetic field important? Can you elaborate on electrochemical exchanges? The ions as a current does not explain enough about how it gives rise to consciousness

This is taken from Wikipedia:

"McFadden has proposed that the brain's electromagnetic field creates a representation of the information in the neurons."

How does electromagnetic field do that?

Alright, so I'm speculating that consciousness arise from electromagnetic field that has previously been theorized here. The thing is electromagnetic field itself is not consciousness and how consciousness arise inside the brain with electromagnetic field is never explained. Electromagnetic field itself is not conscious, its interaction with water molecule as theorized elsewhere that I ruled out to be conscious(ruled out = it is not conscious). Consciousness occurs in the brain, so it could be the brain's structure or material composition give rise to consciousness. I'd like to see if electromagnetic field mapping can be done to the brain too, though I'm not an expert on that

Well, now I need to find a way to simulate electromagnetic field in the computer, you think you can simulate it Strange? They are technically photons

Because they have net charge and can easily react; that's the 'electrical' bit when lots of them act together in sequence.

So a moving charge creates an electromagnetic field?

Yes, it's electrical but the consciousness bit is the behaviour of the entire set of components, not the electricity itself. It's the whole whole collection of impulses that make the consciousness. The mind is information. like code in a computer is information but a piece of code is not a program..

Hmm, it needs to be ions, but why? Moving electric charge creates electromagnetic field?

I think you need to read about emergence; it is an important concept in higher or complex biological and physical systems.

 

Alright, but it emerges based on what property? It has to be some type of electrical property, simply water flowing in the nerve won't work, although I've never seen such a complex water system myself

 

 

I can't imagine where you read that. Certainly not on anything related to science.

 

 

Think of the operation of a computer program, perhaps an interactive 3D game. Is the gameplay a current or a resistor or a logic gate? Obviously not. It is an emergent property of all the components working together. It would be impossible to study the behaviour of all the individual transistors to understand how to play the game.

For 3D game running in the computer, it is a software, therefor it runs by executing the program in a specific location inside the computer where the bits (flip flops) are constantly changing based on the operating of the game. Finally the outputs are translated into bits as well and display on the screen based on RGB colors, but no consciousness is involved there.

If you are saying that the entire analogue circuit of the brain comprises consciousness, the current and voltage could be varying throughout the entire circuit, they are not uniform, but consciousness is uniform, so what remains uniform throughout the entire analogue circuit?

Consciousness arises from the actions of many neurons, not one. One neuron is not some fraction of consciousness just as one brick is not some fraction of a house; it's just a brick.

Right, but you do not lose consciousness from losing a neuron, I hope not

You seem to be suggesting that consciousness is separate from the brain.

 

As consciousness appears to emerge from the function of the entire brain (and maybe the whole nervous system, maybe even the endocrine system) loss of a single neutron is unlikely to have a significant effect. Loss of function of groups of related neutrons can cause loss of specific functions, some of which may be related to consciousness (in the most general sense); e.g. the ability to form new memories.

 

 

 

I would rather not be associated with any such conclusion.

I read somewhere that consciousness is consisted of voltage and its interaction with the water molecule. If you have water flowing in pipe resembling to that of a nervous system, I don't think consciousness is generated. But an electrical circuit has voltage too and it is not conscious. Consciousness does not seem to be a current, it could be a voltage, it is not a resistor, it could be a capacitor, so I'm lost. Speaking from the stand point that I put all computer engineering skills into the drain. So with that in mind, if I want to create digital immortality I need to have the property of voltage in mind

So here I am with some questions about consciousness. I have concluded that the brain's consciousness consists of analogue circuit thanks to help from Strange. Now I will say that with an experience I encountered I think, when some neuron in my brain is blocked off with electromagnetic radiation, I no longer have consciousness in those neurons. My question would be, is individual neuron contribute a part of the consciousness to the overall consciousness or does it simply amplify the consciousness.

If you do not look at the water pipe and leakage how do you know where it is broken, how do you know if it is water in there?

Ya it might be possible from simulating the ions flow

Well alright, but I'm trying to figure out what consciousness is. For one, consciousness is not comprised of logic gates because the state changes and consciousness cannot change. I'm confused on this part

Alright it is an analogue circuit, nothing digital

Hmm, I wonder off to this article where I read a while ago. This means that artificial intelligence is not possible. But if you can prove me wrong with the simplest organism, let me know

P.S. Is it possible to simulate an electromagnetic field?

Right well, my idea about digital immortality is failing because it requires an actual voltage. So, we might have to go hardware again = =, 3D printing, and brain plasticity remains a problem, sucks

Ya, I think the brain won't work without voltage, sad though I want digital immortality so bad

I want to simulate like a circuit inside computer, 2D or 3D, but at the resistor place I want an actual voltage to come out KAPAW, so I can have the image of a simulated current and wire inside the computer, pretty much I'd like to simulate voltage at any spot I want inside a 3D graphical space (multiple places) inside a computer. Any idea how I can do that?

Hmm, in a computer the logic gates does the thinking for you, but consciousness is not logic gate, it is a signal that can be amplified, a continuous wave, so it's state shouldn't change, it is a voltage, a force of dissipation