J.C.MacSwell

The simplifying to an idealization "trap"? (allowing focus on what is actually significant) An infinite mass box can (obviously) exchange all the momentum any particle requires, while allowing the particle to maintain the same energy it had without exchanging any at all. You can ignore the box's temperature in an idealization, or add more assumptions to your model. (just be clear when you do this to be fair to other posters) Your beef seems to be with standard/accepted idealizations (and perhaps Youtube...), the limits of which are generally well known. +1 for admitting that, but let's be fair with one another.

Why would you want to spend more on training? Perhaps for more training toward the correct approach? Or do you just wind them up and send them in a different direction?

So question...Do you think the current training efforts would be sufficient, if they were re-focused as you would like, with no additional expenditures?

I asked a question. I put no words in your mouth. Did you contradict "the police should not be given more money to train, they have enough already" in that post? If so, or if somehow not, either way...how do you come to that conclusion?

So you are okay with the current level of training (5 hours a year in some cases), as long as it is focused on de-escalation and other non physical tactics and strategies?

I get what you're saying but isn't this completely negligible compared to the difference between the energy levels, of all particles randomly appearing on one side of the box... vs them being forced there by work being done on them? (in the category of nit-picking an idealization? )

From reading this part of the post: If he thought more force was always better, why would he say that?

How can you read Alex's post and draw this inference?

Dim, it's not that you contradicted any of your own posts...It's you directly strawmanning what you were quoting.

Agree. If they aren't trained they may be more apt to reach for a gun....or more apt to use it. When fighting straw men, verbal techniques are no doubt best. (he said quite the opposite of what you're suggesting)

You insist on removing a potentially less fatal option, regardless of how many options you might hope are available, possibly in some circumstances a (real) dichotomy where it's the least likely to be lethal, and possibly the only one that could save the cop.

I think I'd rather be put in a choke hold by a well trained and well meaning cop (they do exist) than shot by the same.

Thanks Alex

Where did you get that? (I googled Willik but got nothing)

Fair enough. I agree with that, and the numbers are tied to the disparate experience. What are the root causes?

So you believe that's the majority of the problem?

It may be. It's a sensitive topic. Ignoring it may be a problem as well. True, according to the Wiki link you provided: "Most homicides were intraracial, with 84% of White victims killed by Whites and 93% of African American victims killed by African Americans." Proximity is certainly a factor, but not the only one. It's not an inherent function of race, so if that's what you mean I agree. The Wiki link you provided again: "According to the US Department of Justice, African Americans accounted for 52.5% of all homicide offenders from 1980 to 2008, with Whites 45.3% and "Other" 2.2%. The offending rate for African Americans was almost eight times higher than Whites, and the victim rate six times higher." Much of this depends on the US police/judicial system (including the source of the stats). If you choose to discount that 100% (even when/where if it isn't true), and instead choose to believe the disparities in crime and incarceration rates are all on them, are you going to solve the problem? You vilify (almost) all police/justices, and let other socio economic factors off the hook...why change any of that...let's just blame the police...even the good ones. Not saying you do that...but why wouldn't anyone if they believed the crime rate was exactly the same (despite the conditions) and looked at the conviction/incarceration rates? Let's not worry about poverty...let's abolish the police...like that will help.

As in government (as Americans say "we the people") mandated solutions, or government to enforce fair laws (racially blind except where egregious inequity exists) plus hopefully everyone?

I don't see the drug use (here slightly higher for Whites) or selling of drugs (here slightly higher for Blacks) disparities being statistically significant. Not enough to suspect that whites may be inherently more likely to commit crimes. The arrest/incarceration graphs are another matter. How much of that is due to police/judicial discrimination, how much due to police/judicial focus on type of drugs (I'm making an assumption that it reasonably could be due to differences in danger or other factors), and how much due to other socio economic effects? (not intended as rhetorical questions) Agree with both. I agree with that. But by whom? We are directly responsible for some disparities, and less so on others. We need to look at all root causes if we want to solve anything. Racism is just one of them, and IMO it's not primary, though it may become so. It certainly was in the past.

Why would you suggest that? Is it not reasonable to assume that given reasonably equivalent conditions, we can expect reasonably equivalent outcomes? Why would you suspect it could be lower for Blacks? We have plenty of biases in our systems. They aren't all racial driven, despite the difficulties in separating the motives.

Socio economic situation? I would expect equivalency, but would also be hard pressed to trust any data or manipulation of it. Socio economic status? I would certainly expect more white collar crimes from those groups more affluent, and more street crimes from those groups less so. (but not enough to differentiate individuals on that basis, and certainly not by race) I don't believe the races (to the degree people can be subdivided) are inherently any different in this. Why do you believe it might be lower for Blacks?

IN It does though...because if you actually read and understand the links you are presenting...https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Race_and_crime_in_the_United_States "In the United States, the relationship between race and crime has been a topic of public controversy and scholarly debate for more than a century.[1] Crime rates vary significantly between racial groups. Most homicide victims in the United States are of the same race as the perpetrator. Academic research indicates that the over-representation of some racial minorities in the criminal justice system can in part be explained by socioeconomic factors, such as poverty, exposure to poor neighborhoods, poor access to public education, poor access to early childhood education, and exposure to harmful chemicals (such as lead) and pollution.[2][3] Racial housing segregation has also been linked to racial disparities in crime rates, as blacks have historically and to the present been prevented from moving into prosperous low-crime areas through actions of the government (such as redlining) and private actors.[4][5][6] Various explanations within criminology have been proposed to explain racial disparities in crime rates, including conflict theory, strain theory, general strain theory, social disorganization theory, macrostructural opportunity theory, social control theory, and subcultural theory." Then it continues with something that you might conflate with supporting your claim: "Research also indicates that there is extensive racial and ethnic discrimination by police and the judicial system..." IE. It isn't enough to support your claim. This shouldn't be controversial (but I realize it is). It should not be surprising that socio economic factors influence the commission of crimes. Both Wiki and the UN seem to agree.

For quoting INow and a contradicting UN report? (which he thought was supporting evidence for his claim) Or is it for something else?

Thanks INow. But your link seems to disagree with your claim that Blacks "commit crimes at the same (or less) rate" https://www.sentencingproject.org/publications/un-report-on-racial-disparities/ "What might appear at first to be a linkage between race and crime is in large part a function of concentrated urban poverty, which is far more common for African Americans than for other racial groups. This accounts for a substantial portion of African Americans’ increased likelihood of committing certain violent and property crimes."10) It doesn't discount the effect of discrimination by the police/judicial system...but unless that's a greater factor than other socio economic effects...neither did I.

Thanks. But wasn't Dim responding in a way that many of the more well meaning protestors (not the violent looters) are espousing? Doing his best to speak out against even "hidden" racism?