5614 Posted April 23, 2005 Share Posted April 23, 2005 You can control youbut it wont last. it will only end up in either an emotional out burst or a complete breakdown You're saying that if a boy asked a girl out because he loved and she said no he'd either have an emotional outburst or a complete breakdown? Or if a girl dumped him and he still loved her the same would happen to him? I know many people who would prove you wrong with personal experiences. You can (or at least the majority of people can) control their actions (even if they did think of it). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Callipygous Posted April 23, 2005 Share Posted April 23, 2005 If they cannot control themselves they need serious help, in the mean time they are not safe. Maybe someone should help them, that's not what we are debating, natural urges such as paedophilla would be very hard to seriously counteract. If someone was a stereotypical paedophile who'd have sex with kids, even after help, if placed in the same situation very few people would have the brain power to control themselves. im curious what any of that has to do with feeling sympathy for someone in a very difficult situation. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
5614 Posted April 23, 2005 Share Posted April 23, 2005 your 16 and bettinas 17, so i guess neither of you may have had the experiense of a sex drive pushing you toward an immoral target (eg friends girlfriend). i have. it sucks, and i had to resist, which also sucked, even though i really didnt want to resist (which in itself sucked). hence how i can annalogise my sex drive to that of a paedophiles. if youv never fancied a mates girlfriend then i guess its not as good an analogy. hmm, maybe I didn't say this last time: I said I can't make the analogy because it's not quite the same wanting to have sex with someone your age and wanting to have sex with a pre-puberty child, often of the same sex. At the same time I see how a sex drive could drive someone, the second reason I can't make the analogy is because I, like you, can CONTROL it. If my sex drive was like a paedophile then that paedophile would not be having sex with a child... because they'd think before they acted, they'd know what they were doing, they wouldn't be doing something immoral. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dak Posted April 23, 2005 Share Posted April 23, 2005 im curious what any of that has to do with feeling sympathy for someone in a very difficult situation. the OP was "what are your thoughts on paedophillia/paedophiles" so his comments seem on topic Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Callipygous Posted April 23, 2005 Share Posted April 23, 2005 No. Because I can control my sex drive and I do not wish to have with children, the same applies to Bettina. many pedophiles can control their sex drives also. everyone has a sex drive. everyone has felt just how powerful those urges are. the fact that you feel those urges toward different people doesnt mean you cant compare the feeling in an effort to help understand what another person is experiencing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dak Posted April 23, 2005 Share Posted April 23, 2005 indeed, and when i said analogouse to a paedophiles i mean to a non-practacing paedophiles the whole point was to show bettina that non-practicing paedophiles are ok, which didnt actually need showing, but its a long post and by the time i made my point i forgot what she actually said. i forget what my point was originally going to be... something along the lines that its understandable that they might consider it ok to sleep with childeren, and in cases where the paedophiles sleep with consenting childeren, it is more misguided than evil... doesnt make it ok, i hasten to add. but i feel discussion is more productive in this case than condemnation... something like that anyway, i forget. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
5614 Posted April 23, 2005 Share Posted April 23, 2005 im curious what any of that has to do with feeling sympathy for someone in a very difficult situation. hmm, I seemed to have got a bit sidetracked!!! It's hard to feel sympathy towards someone who threatens younger children, you feel sympathy for the younger children (or at least I would, and seemingly Bettina would too) and that in itself makes the adult (paedophile) the 'bad guy'. If you look at it as 'I wanna have sex with children, it's not my fault I feel that' we get into the situation which Bettina described of paedophiles making excuses for their actions and looking for sympathy. They should be able to control themselves. As Dak said, it is our ability to control thoughts which makes us different from apes. Apes do not belong in our civilisation, if you cannot control your thoughts you are like an ape and therefore do not belong in our civilisation either. If we cannot feel sorry for them we should help them.... (add in what I said before, sorry about being sidetracked and totaly not replying to what you said (in that one case)). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
5614 Posted April 23, 2005 Share Posted April 23, 2005 many pedophiles can control their sex drives also. everyone has a sex drive. everyone has felt just how powerful those urges are. the fact that you feel those urges toward different people doesnt mean you cant compare the feeling in an effort to help understand what another person is experiencing. 1st bit: I'm ok with them then. 2nd bit: OK fair enough. indeed' date=' and when i said analogouse to a paedophiles i mean to a non-practacing paedophiles the whole point was to show bettina that non-practicing paedophiles are ok, which didnt actually need showing, but its a long post and by the time i made my point i forgot what she actually said. i forget what my point was originally going to be... something along the lines that its understandable that they might consider it ok to sleep with childeren, and in cases where the paedophiles sleep with consenting childeren, [b']it is more misguided than evil... doesnt make it ok, i hasten to add[/b]. but i feel discussion is more productive in this case than condemnation... something like that anyway, i forget. "non-practicing" is ok, in that as Bettina said about her Dad and how she'd never know... no one has a problem with that. "sleeping with child's consent" I still think that that is immoral and stick to the point that the child doesn't really understand the whole thing, sex, love, relationships is not natural for them, they're too young. bold part: well as long as they can control it....... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dak Posted April 23, 2005 Share Posted April 23, 2005 even when they cant/chose not to, it still doesnt nessesaraly make them evil. note that im not saying its ok; its still wrong and should be stopped, but is not inherantly evil. thats all im saying IMO, theyre only evil if they rape kids, or know its wrong to have sex with kids even with their consent but still do. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Callipygous Posted April 23, 2005 Share Posted April 23, 2005 hmm' date=' I seemed to have got a bit sidetracked!!! It's hard to feel sympathy towards someone who threatens younger children, you feel sympathy for the younger children (or at least I would, and seemingly Bettina would too) and that in itself makes the adult (paedophile) the 'bad guy'. [/quote'] right, thats why we were making those analogies about, "what if two equal age people were viewed in the same way pedophiles are? " to try to present the adults point of view. (i am in no way condoning anyone having sex with children, just that we should feel sympathy toward someone with those urges) If you look at it as 'I wanna have sex with children, it's not my fault I feel that' we get into the situation which Bettina described of paedophiles making excuses for their actions and looking for sympathy. They should be able to control themselves. As Dak said, it is our ability to control thoughts which makes us different from apes. Apes do not belong in our civilisation, if you cannot control your thoughts you are like an ape and therefore do not belong in our civilisation either. absolutely. i get urges to have sex with girls all the time, but you dont see me pulling attractive girls behind a dumpster at school to get freaky between classes. the need to control ones urges is common to all people, not just people with unusual urges. anyone who gives into them should be viewed as a threat to society, not just pedophiles. what if i had sex with every girl i felt urges toward? i would be a rapist. i dont see the difference between me holding a girl down and a pedophile convincing a prepubescent child that they should have sex. it just so happens that a pedophiles urges should never be acted out, where as mine will probably get satisfied in what is considered a normal healthy relationship with a girl my age. shouldnt we feel sympathy toward someone who just has to live with their urges without hope of eventually acting them out? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
5614 Posted April 23, 2005 Share Posted April 23, 2005 IMO, theyre only evil if they rape kids, or know its wrong to have sex with kids even with their consent but still do. IMO they are 'evil' [note I haven't said that word yet] if they have sex with children. It is wrong if they approach children because of the whole 'don't talk to strangers' thing. what if i had sex with every girl i felt urges toward? i would be a rapist. NO! If every girl said yes to you that'd be fine, maybe a bit over the top, but if you asked and they said yes and they're your age... and **** you'd have to be popular for that! shouldnt we feel sympathy toward someone who just has to live with their urges without hope of eventually acting them out? As Bettina said, that is no reason to excuse them.... sure it is unfortuneate that their urges should never be fullfilled but that is not anyones fault and it does not excuse them in the slightest (I know you're not saying it does). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Coral Rhedd Posted April 23, 2005 Author Share Posted April 23, 2005 In many countries daughters as young as nine are sold off for marriage, and this is a perfectly "normal" thing to do And perfectly disgusting. They are being treated as property. When people are enslaved and treated as property, we have no trouble discovering our outrage. We are all sensitized to slavery as it relates to class and racism. One of the problems with child sexual abuse (and I classify all adults having sex with people under 14 as child sexual abusers) is that children have a particular position in all cultures: That of being both dependent and disempowered. Because they lack judgment and need guidance, we cannot grant them the same freedoms that we do adults. Conversely, we still need to recognize that they have certain rights. Being dependent must not mean that they are in a position to be unfairly exploited either by parents or others. This is a tricky balancing act. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Callipygous Posted April 23, 2005 Share Posted April 23, 2005 NO! If every girl said yes to you that'd be fine, maybe a bit over the top, but if you asked and they said yes and they're your age... and **** you'd have to be popular for that! thats not really true. i get urges toward plenty of girls that are under the legal age. technically i was under the legal age up untill a couple months ago, at which point who the rapist is just depends on who reports it first (no joke, in california, if two 17 year olds have sex the first one to step into the police department is the victim) so if i had sex with every girl i had urges toward i would be a statutory rapist (no idea how to spell statutory : P ) not to mention the fact that they would not all say yes. any way... none of this is really the point. i have felt the urge to punch someone in the head. with a brick. if i did i would be a hazard to society. people who dont resist their urges are the problem, not people who have strange urges. As Bettina said, that is no reason to excuse them.... sure it is unfortuneate that their urges should never be fullfilled but that is not anyones fault and it does not excuse them in the slightest (I know you're not saying it does). sympathize, not excuse. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Coral Rhedd Posted April 23, 2005 Author Share Posted April 23, 2005 society needs to be educated - not turned against peadophillia, its turning into what homosexuallity used to be. No it isn't because homosexuals have sex without adults. One of the driving forces behind our coming to accept homosexuality has been that consenting adults may choose their sex partners. The idea behind protecting child as a special class is that they cannot give informed consent because they lack the maturity and judgment to do so. Keep you eye on the ball here. Child sexual abuse is not a victimless crime. We can discuss the psyches of pedophiles all we wish and any intelligent person will acknowledge the difficulties of controlling the sex drive whatever one's orientation. However is specious to take the political language of the gay rights movement and use it to justify adults acting out their sexual impulses upon children. I think we need to distinguish between tactics and honest discussion. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Coral Rhedd Posted April 23, 2005 Author Share Posted April 23, 2005 Thought leads to action It can but thought also leads to making choices. There can be a choice to act and a choice to refrain from acting. I think the greater problem here is that feeding an obsession leads almost inevitably to action. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
5614 Posted April 23, 2005 Share Posted April 23, 2005 Callipygous: I thought your girl/sex example was all legit, except it was with many people, many boys/young adults have sex with more than one girl before they are married. The fact that you said several of them are under 16 does make a difference. I don't have a problem with that, (remember this is if it is all legit), I might frown at you if you did 15 girls in a very short period, but its legal and everyone is fine with it so am I. I'm not recommending, but you're not 'evil' for it, at least not in the same way as a paedophile. sympathize, not excuse. I think, possibly, what Bettina was getting at is that if we sympathise with them it could lead to excusing them. I would partially sympathise, but never excuse. ===== Genuine question here: Is it considered rude to use the word 'paedo' or is it just an accepted abbriviation? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Callipygous Posted April 23, 2005 Share Posted April 23, 2005 Callipygous: I thought your girl/sex example was all legit, except it was with many people, many boys/young adults have sex with more than one girl before they are married. The fact that you said several of them are under 16 does make a difference. 18 here, but yes. I think, possibly, what Bettina was getting at is that if we sympathise with them it could lead to excusing them. I would partially sympathise, but never excuse. a good point. but i dont think ill have that problem. i think there is a big enough difference between feeling sympathy for someone and condoning sex with a child that ill be able to keep the two sepperate. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
5614 Posted April 23, 2005 Share Posted April 23, 2005 a good point. but i dont think ill have that problem. i think there is a big enough difference between feeling sympathy for someone and condoning sex with a child that ill be able to keep the two sepperate. I'm sure you won't, but if there are people in the world who can't help but murder or have sex with children under the age of 12 I think there will be some who might lead from sympathy to excuse. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Coral Rhedd Posted April 23, 2005 Author Share Posted April 23, 2005 The fact that Pedophiles have come here to post' date=' is because they are looking for sympathy. They fantasize about having sex with little boys and girls. They want to convince you that "child love" is different than "wanton sex with a minor". They will post smooth talk, and add intelligence through a big vocabulary. What they crave is acceptance from you that its ok to be what they are. That its ok for a 35 year old adult to have sex with a child as long as its mutual. [/quote'] That may be the motive of some posting here but we cannot be certain and, in the face to that uncertainly, it is better to be reserve accusations. These people are NOT trying to keep it hidden but want to "educate" us and I have no doubt that some that posted here would have sex with an 8 year old if they could get away with it. Then they may be underestimating the intelligent people of this forum. Nevertheless, I welcome the opportunity to see into the minds of people who think differently from me. You can change the word "pedophile" to whatever name that makes you comfortable, but you are still immoral in your thinking. You may find a home here and acceptance by some, but I will fight you every step of the way, for I know you for what you really are. All us kids do. Almost everyone desires acceptance -- whether or not they have a particular agenda. But consider the repercussions of condeming people for their "thoughts." Think whether or not this attitude of yours might have a religious origin. God may be able to condemn people for their thoughts -- although I, for one, can see no reason for it, but we humans have no such right. Were we to begin doing this, all the countries of the world would be police states. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dak Posted April 23, 2005 Share Posted April 23, 2005 society needs to be educated - not turned against peadophillia' date=' its turning into what homosexuallity used to be.[/quote'']No it isn't because homosexuals have sex without adults. One of the driving forces behind our coming to accept homosexuality has been that consenting adults may choose their sex partners.(note: 'we' refers to society in general, not the members of this forum) he had a point inasmuch as, whether we are talking about homosexuality or paedophillia, something that is right or something that is wrong, or prettymuch whatever we are talking about, histeria, lack of understanding, shunning and witch hunts do not help. homosexuality, when it was finally rationally assessed, was demed to be ok paedophillia, if rationally assessed? when debating, i always acknowledge the possibility that my views may be wrong, so i guess one out come could be that we realise the AoC is wrong. much more likely is that we learn more about it and how the issue could more productively be handled. when homosexuality was extremely untolerated and homosexuals shunned, did people cease being homosexual? no. they went underground, or formed small secret groups or found others like them. occasionally a few of them got burned at the stake, but the phenomena still continued to exist. with paedophillia being extremely untolerated and paedophiles shunned, do people cease being paedophiles? no. they go underground, form small secret groups of find individual childeren. occasionally, a few of them go to jail, but the phenomena sill continues to exist. maybe if we relaxed the moratorum in general society on discussing paedaphillia and the stigma involved with finding childeren attractive, more paedophiles would come to understand and learn to control their instincts (and also learn that they should). it can be hard enough to admit that your gay, to yourself or your closest friends, let alone admit that your a paedophile. which leaves what options? keeping it to yourself? or seeking the guidance of people who will not instantly shun you, ie other paedophiles? eitherway does not, i feel, decrease the possibility that the paedophile will chose to act out their feelings. in that way, i feel muldermans comment was apt. there should be less shunning of paedophiles - ie for someone to merely posess that instinct should be considered ok - whilst maintaining the legal punishment of thoses who actually have sex with childeren. that attetude could consievably increase the number of non-practising paedophiles and reduse the number of practising paedophiles. ie, in that way, paedophiles now should be treated less like homosexuals used to be. not nessesaraly, though, 'accepted' asin 'allowed to practice' Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ezekiel23 Posted April 23, 2005 Share Posted April 23, 2005 . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dak Posted April 23, 2005 Share Posted April 23, 2005 how do you know so definitely that adult/child sex is actually so harmful? What I am saying is that harm is done by rape. We all know that - all sorts of rape may cause harm, even to adults. More studies than not show that sex with children is harmful. Psychologists tell us that they have experienced more cases than not in which sex with children was harmful to the child. I suggest that this is largely due to the fact that with laws as they stand and also the current public view of adult/child sex, the likelyhood of rape is increased. i only ever claimed that in at least some of the cases, adult/child sex is damaging. if you want citations, if i could request that choral rhied give them (this seems like your area of expertese, im assuming that you may have some referenses to desent studies to hand). as far as your argument that AoC increases the likelyhood of rape, id ask you how the AoC could be viably be abolished (if thats what your sujjesting)? i do agree that repression can lead rape, hense why i think the stigma should be removed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vladimir Posted April 23, 2005 Share Posted April 23, 2005 And perfectly disgusting. They are being treated as property. When people are enslaved and treated as property, we have no trouble discovering our outrage. We are all sensitized to slavery as it relates to class and racism. DISGUSTING! How dare you. Have you ever lived in a different cultre? ever experienced a different way of life?! Let me tell you your society sickens me to my very core. You talk about class and racism but you havent got a clue Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Coral Rhedd Posted April 23, 2005 Author Share Posted April 23, 2005 DISGUSTING! How dare you. Have you ever lived in a different cultre? ever experienced a different way of life?! Let me tell you your society sickens me to my very core. You talk about class and racism but you havent got a clue I dare because I think girls are people who should not be treated like a commodity. Racism is the discrimination of people based upon race alone. Once can eschew racism and still see behavior by people of other races as wrong. I would object to selling young girls into marriage by any people of any race. I absolutely stand by my statement. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Coral Rhedd Posted April 23, 2005 Author Share Posted April 23, 2005 Actually' date=' from what I can make out, the emotion felt between paedophiles and anyone else is exactly the same, it is only the object of attraction that differs. Other than that, the attraction is perfectly analogous. [/quote'] Actually there is quite a bit of evidence that the object relations of pedophiles differs from that of adults who are attracted sexually to other adults. Some people point out that, since, physically and aesthetically, boys and women are more similar to one another than boys and men, homosexual paedophiles I don't understand what you mean by this. Could you please elaborate? and heterosexuals behave and will probably feel very much the same about what they are attracted to. And indeed, out of myself and the one or two other BLs I've met in real life, there's not one who exhibits any stereotype or signs of being anything other than a perfectly ordinary heterosexual male. By definition, they are not heterosexual males if their primary attraction is to children. By definition, neither are they homosexual males if their primary attraction is to children. Homosexuality has absolutely nothing to do with pedophilia. Many pedophiles are primarily attracted to girls. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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