PhD in Psychology in the US

[mooeypoo]

Hi guys,

 

My sister finished her BSc in Psychology in Ben Gurion University in Israel. She wants to continue to a PhD and eventually become a practicing psychologist, and she wants to study in the USA.

 

She has research experience (whatever a BSc research experience is worth) and while her paper wasn't peer-reviewed-published (it's not yet a full fledged psychological research, more of a primer) she made us all squee in pride when her work appeared in the news (!). I know that news items aren't very "science" valid, but it's something. Also, her grades are great and she speaks very good English.

 

 

 

I have no idea about the requirements of a psychology PhD or any graduate program in psychology. Do you need to do a Masters first, or do you go straight to PhD? How do you choose schools? Are there different programs? Which exams do you need to do, is it just GRE or also subject-GRE? etc.

 

We are now starting a massive google search to start her out and learn what she needs to do and how to do it, but I was wondering if anyone might have any advice for her. My only expertise is in google searching and in physics programs, so I don't even know what the requirements are or if the process is the same to psychology as it is to physics...

 

Does anyone have any suggestions as to websites or resources we can point her towards? Anyone knows about any programs that offer some sort of fellowship or scholarship so she can afford school, even to International Students?

 

((In physics, if you go to a PhD, you're 99% of the time covered in some scholarship or fellowship -- is this true of psychology too?))

 

Any help will be much appreciated!

 

I'll try to get her to post here directly for specific questions that come up, she's a bit stressed out over everything. For now, we're just trying to organize it all and see how to just start the process and where to learn more about it.

 

Thanks!

 

~mooey

[CharonY]

Do you need to do a Masters first, or do you go straight to PhD?

 

 

Many do not require you to make a full master, but often there is the need to complete a master's in passing as part of the doctoral degree.

 

Are there different programs?

 

The most common differentiation are clinical and non-clinical programs, with quite a bit of sub-varieties.

 

Which exams do you need to do

That depends on the school. Most want a GRE, some want additional aptitude tests, letter of references, statement of purpose etc. Foreign students also need to submit their TOEFL (most of the time).

 

Anyone knows about any programs that offer some sort of fellowship or scholarship so she can afford school, even to International Students?

I do not know whether and which schools offer scholarship. The majority of available scholarships tend to be from other agencies. Additional sources are grant money from the PI (when one joins a group) and some department also finance students via TA positions.

 

It is probably the best to create a shortlist of universities that you are interested in and start from there.

[Xittenn]

I'm always looking into stuff like this and I hear a lot here, there and everywhere. University independent services exist that will evaluate transferability and AACROA is an example. I hear a lot of stories in Canada about international degrees not being recognized in part or at all. In the States it seems that some are more open than others. In both countries it generally depends on which sending country you are coming from. American Universities will accept Canadian degrees but require an evaluation for other countries. I know here Pakistani and Indian degrees generally do not transfer over.

 

Looking over a few American Universities, Texas has their own evaluation department. I think it was Chicago that I was looking at, required international students to complete one full year of undergrad credits before commencing with their graduate degrees. Whether or not you take a Masters and then a PhD depends on the school, UBC offers Masters followed by PhD's and also direct PhD's. Penn had an applied Master's degree and a PhD and they seem to be independent programs. More specific details would probably insight better responses from individuals maybe who have attended said facilities.

Edited November 10, 2011 by Xittenn

[mooeypoo]

Thanks CharonY!

 

I know that for physics, the main agencies that can be approached for fellowships are the NSF, NCSE, national labs, etc. Are there any well known agencies for psychology in that aspect? We'll check out the APA, but that's about the only agency I know in terms of psychology. Any other ideas on that?

 

She's going to do all exams (TOEFL, GRE and subject-GRE) this coming year to cover her bases, I think.

 

Thanks for the help, and I'm sorry if these are questions that might be obvious -- she's all stressed out and i have no idea where to start, really. I think our best bet for the moment is a more extensive google search and have her talk to her professors, see if any of them studied in the US.

 

Thanks again!

 

~mooey

[CharonY]

You may want to look at the Fulbright program (I do not know the specifics other than quite a few grad students are financed by it) http://www.iie.org/en.

NSF and NIH are also obvious sources. I do not know what kind of funding may exist that are more specific for psychology (the mentioned sources are all not terribly specific to a given discipline).

 

However, if you apply from overseas you may be limited to foreign exchange programs and especially many NIH and NSF fellowships are limited to US nationals or at least permanent residents. Also, you may need a letter of support from the department. However, I am more familiar with money sources on the post-doctoral level and above, so there may be slightly different rules for graduate programs.

 

Certain fellowships as well as departmental resources are only available after enrollment/acceptance, obviously.

 

However, it is probably best to check out available programs, pick the right field and school and then try to get the money.

Edited November 10, 2011 by CharonY

[PhDwannabe]

Moo:

 

A couple of major points.

 

1. You don't need a master's first. More and more people come in with one as the field becomes more competitive--it can help with application strength a little, particularly if undergraduate performance was weak. However, even a master's in psych won't do much for you once in graduate school--like many PhD programs, they're finicky as hell about accepting transfer credits. People are often fighting tooth-and-nail to get a few things counted. We usually do a "master's along the way" model. For admission, the primary factors of importance are GRE score, research experience, undergrad GPA, and strength of letters of rec, in loosely that order (depending on program).

 

2. You choose schools (besides all of the obvious considerations like whether you like the area) mainly according to something we vaguely call "fit." Indeed, "fit" is also how schools choose you. Like many grad programs, you're not really primarily accepted to a school; you're accepted to a professor and their lab. So people spend a lot of time stalking departmental websites looking for people whose research agenda fits with theirs (ideally, you're familiar enough with the literature in your area or have networked enough that you know some of these names already). Fit also has to do with your professional goals: do you want to be an academic scientist? A clinician? Different schools have different focus there, and some are known as having de-emphasized clinical training in favor of research. The standard model for PhD grad psych training is called the "scientist practitioner" model, in which both skill sets are supposed to build on and inform the other, and share more or less equal training emphasis. Those schools who more more toward research are starting to call themselves part of the "clinical scientist" model. Finally, some schools have dominant theoretical orientations. Washington and Arizona, for instance: classically huge behaviorist hubs. Penn: the center of cognitive behaviorism and, increasingly, behavioral medicine. Lots of New York schools: more psychodynamic.

 

3. You didn't ask it, but as part of this "fit" thing, she ought to be getting herself sure of what sort of program she wants to go into; I'm referring here to the major division: clinical and not-clinical. Clinical psychologists study mental disorders, broadly, but out of all the specialties, clinical psychologists are generally the ones who can become licensed to practice (not all of them do). They're not the only ones--school psychologists get licensure, but their scope of practice is often almost exclusively made of assessments. With a license, you can practice therapy, supervise (which many academics do, because they teach students who are doing clinical experiences as part of their training), do assessments, and some other stuff. The non-clinical specialties are more basic science, and train almost exclusively academics: developmental psychology, cognitive psychology, physiological psychology, social psychology, etc. Even if you're going into a clinical program, however, and you want to practice, you more or less have to lie and tell people you want to be a researcher and an academic. This is a known lie, as most of us don't become academics, but they often don't want to waste their time on someone not willing to tell it. This is the game. Oh, you just want to practice? Cute. Get out of here; go get a master's or a PsyD (more on what that is later).

 

4. Essentially all schools require the GRE. 1200 is often cited as a bare minimum for being reasonably competitive--I'm not sure what that translates to in the goofy new scoring system, but I imagine equivalency tables are available online. The psych GRE is required by a minority of programs--most scholars are unconvinced that it adds relatively little predictive utility to deciding who's a good match. Many schools will take the scores as optional; a few do require. I honestly limited my initial applications to those that didn't, since I was so averse to having to take it.

 

5. The APA index is a nice place to start. Also, studentdoctor.net is a lovely website full of neurotic pre-meds, residency applicants, and psych grad applicants. Around app and interview time, the forums are flooded with people exchanging information about who they've heard from and stuff, but people are on there all year talking about the app process. This is also a nice book, updated yearly, with lots of basic critical info about every single program in the USA which trains psychologists.

 

6. Regarding money, most schools remit tuition for some to all of the course of grad training, and offer some kind of modest stipend for grad fellowship duties, which can include research, teaching, lots of things. In some schools--usually tier one research institutions or close to them--they don't do this directly, but the idea is the faculty you're brought on to work with has active grants, and the grant will pay you as you work on their projects. Sometimes, students can be expected to go find paid practicum experiences (you need them anyway; some are paid.) Some schools have semi-formal opportunities for students to earn money if they go beyond a tuition remission or stipend period, like seeing extra clients at a clinic or teaching extra classes. It varies somewhat widely, and that book I recommended tells you about this sort of thing for pretty much every school--it's an important consideration.

 

7. You didn't ask about it, but I'll mention it anyway: as I let slip above, there's also a degree called a PsyD. It's a doctoral-level degree (rolls eyes) for people who are going to be pretty much exclusively practitioners. Remember when I mentioned the schools that de-emphasize clinical training in favor of research? Well, these go their other way. Their research requirements are--and hence, their research knowledge is--quite minimal. Some of these people are great clinicians. But the schools that grant these are often standalone institutions that grant 50, 70, 100 degrees a year, as opposed to our 4-12. I'm not calling them diploma mills, but as institutions, they're frequently looked down upon--depending on who you ask, the attitude towards them is something like that doctors have towards Caribbean medical schools (if you don't know about that phenomenon, ask a doctor). I won't lie to you when I say myself and my colleagues in PhD-level clinical psych have to bite our lips when we hear some of their students at conferences, moaning about the unbearable, 20-page tome they're having to write for their "dissertation." (One girl once said to me incredulously, "I had to get SPSS!") In the clinical world, they typically fare significantly worse on our one holy educational outcome measure: internship match. (You do an internship year or two at the end of all of this, around the time you're doing your dissertation.) If someone really honestly doesn't want anything to do with research, do it. If not, avoid. If she's anything like her sister, well, she's more of a scientist than that.

 

8. The app process is pretty onerous--it's a task many people start getting together in the spring or summer, since most due dates are December-January, and arranging everything can take months. I won't lie, it's very late to start this process now for this round of spring 2012 admissions. A standard school might get 250 applications by January, interview 30 in February, and make 6 offers in March. You've gotta go to that interview if you get it--everyone there is qualified to get in, but they've got to kick the tires and check for crazy in person (and they are there--half of them are, in hushed whispers, voted off the island by current students and faculty in the first couple of hours). Does your sister live in Israel? If she's lucky enough to get three interviews, that's three trips around the world. Hope you've got a couch for her to crash on here in the States.

 

Hope all that helps. Check out that book and those websites.

[mooeypoo]

You guys rock, and thanks a lot, PhDwannabe for the lengthy and awesome response!

 

I sent my sister an email and pointed her to this page. I am hoping she'll sign up and ask you guys directly (she understands psychobabble much more than me, the meek physicists ) but seriously, we're all grateful!

 

Thanks!

 

~mooey and her sister

 

Oh, and btw, the reason she got a bit panicky and bummed was because I told her exactly what you say here below, and especially regarding the process being rather late. She isn't planning on getting into a PhD program by 2012, but rather a year later, so this gives her enough time to do all the exams, figure things out and apply.

8. The app process is pretty onerous--it's a task many people start getting together in the spring or summer, since most due dates are December-January, and arranging everything can take months. I won't lie, it's very late to start this process now for this round of spring 2012 admissions. A standard school might get 250 applications by January, interview 30 in February, and make 6 offers in March. You've gotta go to that interview if you get it--everyone there is qualified to get in, but they've got to kick the tires and check for crazy in person (and they are there--half of them are, in hushed whispers, voted off the island by current students and faculty in the first couple of hours). Does your sister live in Israel? If she's lucky enough to get three interviews, that's three trips around the world. Hope you've got a couch for her to crash on here in the States.

 

 

As for sofa space, I will only give her mine if she admits psychology is not as empirical as physics...

 

 

 

 

 

 

~mooey

[PhDwannabe]

She isn't planning on getting into a PhD program by 2012, but rather a year later, so this gives her enough time to do all the exams, figure things out and apply.

Yes, good. This is a great time to start up the process. A lot of students get that APA guide as a Christmas (er, Hanukkah) present in preparation for the next year months of preparation and figuring things out.

 

As for sofa space, I will only give her mine if she admits psychology is not as empirical as physics...

If she's like me, she'd do anything to get that PhD. Even lie to physicists.

 

The more grad students she can talk to, the better, so I hope she knows a few--there's just no substitute for hearing about all the nuances from someone who has recently been though/is in the process. Moo, you've got my gmail, so feel free to have your sister e-mail me if she has questions that come up on this long, long, long road. One of the keys to success here is to talk to as many people as possible: students, professors, everyone. Oh, and along the lines of what I told you in chat, I sure hope she studies PTSD. "I want into a PTSD lab, I'm Israeli" is not too far off from "I'd like to work at your watch factory. I'm Swiss." Bonus points.

[nufifi]

Hello everybody!

 

thank you sooooo much for all your answers and for your time

 

my sister was nice enough to ask you guys about psychology, but specifically I'm interested in programs in clinical or counseling psychology and I also find neuropsychology fascinating (i think in the states it's called physiological psychology but i'm not sure.... and yes i know that would be a good place to start - knowing what the program is called).

so to my questions...

before i start looking for the program and professor that are right for me.... should I apply just for one program? if I apply for more than one and I assume the universities know about my other applications will that make me look like I'm indecisive?

second, in my country universities look at the students GPA in their courses in Psychology and separately they look at the students GPA in all the courses together. do they do that in states also?

third, i have looked in some universities, maybe I looked in the wrong places.... they all say which test is required for an application to several psychology departments but they never say what is the score that you need in each test. is 1200 in the GRE enough for clinical, counseling or neuropsychology programs?

lastly, mooey i do not admit psychology is less empirical than physics. do i still get to sleep on your couch? maybe i should take it up with mom.....

thanks for you're all answers it helps a tons!

mooey's sister, Nufifi.

[mooeypoo]

lastly, mooey i do not admit psychology is less empirical than physics. do i still get to sleep on your couch? maybe i should take it up with mom.....

No one's perfect. However, if you promise to cook me your famous schnitzels, you have a deal.

I think in psychology you call this "Negotiation skills", although it doesn't always empirically work...

 

 

In any case, just a pointer, in all things "international" I can help out, since I am one atm. You will need to work on having an "I-20", which is a document from your potential school (after you get in) that you then take to the US Embassy to get yourself an "F-1" visa, which allows you to study. You should be aware that an F-1 visa only allows you to work in school *or* in places that are directly related to your degree. And you are only allowed 20-hours-a-week (which is part-time) during semesters, and full time (40-hours a week) during semester breaks. The money from work will *not* cover your study expenses, so you might want to consider going to a public university or get a scholarship or fellowship.

Don't dismiss public universities too fast. I know that from outside the US, especially due to hollywood movies (sadly), it seems like if you aren't in the big private schools, you won't really get anywhere. That's a myth. Of course going to Princeton or Yale is considered more prestigious, but there are *excellent* programs in public universities as well. As an example, my friend got accepted to the Solar Physics specialty in the University of Michigan, and it's considered one of the best in this specialty.

Think about the specialty you want to do, and search schools by specialty and professors. Of course, try for the prestigious ones, but don't limit yourself. You might find that there are schools you never heard of (being out of the US) that are considered EXTREMELY good programs.

Finally, one last tip of the day -- I remember mom helped me look for scholarships in Israel to study abroad. Students from all over the world do that in their prospective countries too; sometimes specific groups *in* the original country help subsidize degrees abroad. When I checked this we found a number of potential places for physics, but for me it wasn't relevant because all of them dealt with graduate programs, and I was an undergrad. You should look up Israeli/American alliance groups or educational foundations that might help you as an Israeli student to cover some expenses abroad.

 

Welcome to the forum, sistah

~mooey

 

Yes, good. This is a great time to start up the process. A lot of students get that APA guide as a Christmas (er, Hanukkah) present in preparation for the next year months of preparation and figuring things out.

Whaddayaknow, incidentally, she seems to have a birthday in Hanukkah... la la ..la..

 

You mean this guide? http://www.apa.org/pubs/books/4270096.aspx ? It's funny, I work on the same type of book for physics now! ha. Anyways, is it really helpful?

 

If she's like me, she'd do anything to get that PhD. Even lie to physicists.

Touche.

 

The more grad students she can talk to, the better, so I hope she knows a few--there's just no substitute for hearing about all the nuances from someone who has recently been though/is in the process. Moo, you've got my gmail, so feel free to have your sister e-mail me if she has questions that come up on this long, long, long road. One of the keys to success here is to talk to as many people as possible: students, professors, everyone. Oh, and along the lines of what I told you in chat, I sure hope she studies PTSD. "I want into a PTSD lab, I'm Israeli" is not too far off from "I'd like to work at your watch factory. I'm Swiss." Bonus points.

 

Living with me for her entire life, I think it would probably go more like "I have PTSD, can I help research it?!" which, technically, should be even more valuable.

 

Now she's on the boards, so feel free to communicate directly, and thank you VERY much for all of this. I might (ab)use your email myself... mahaha

 

 

~mooey