Alien visitation

[insane_alien]

the point i was trying to make was that being unable to identify the phenomenon does not rule out a known explanation.

 

i was under the impression that this was clear.

[Moontanman]

if the reality or non reality of UFOs is what every one wants to discuss i can offer evidence that is really convincing, far less convincing evidence has been used to put men to death. Do we really want to go there ?

[insane_alien]

that would be completely unrelated to the exitance of ufo's as you well know.

[mooeypoo]

This is why I was arguing that "UFOs" should stick to the "Unidentified Flying Object" definition. There's absolutely zero questions that those exist. We see them, we know of them.

 

They stop being UFOs when we identify them (obviously).

 

They aren't necessarily alien visitations just because we can't explain them.

 

I think we should do a better job separating alien visitations vs. ufos in this discussion, if we want it to make any sort of sense.

 

If I see something flying in a weird way in the night's sky, it's a UFO. That doesn't make it an alien aircraft. To be convinced that it's an alien aircraft, I need proof that (a) alien aircrafts exist and that (b) in this particular case it was an alien aircraft.

 

You can see, then, how the two (UFOs and Alien Visitations) are said to be different arguments here.

 

~moo

[Moontanman]

This is why I was arguing that "UFOs" should stick to the "Unidentified Flying Object" definition. There's absolutely zero questions that those exist. We see them, we know of them.

 

I've been trying my best to stick with that definition.

 

They stop being UFOs when we identify them (obviously).

 

They aren't necessarily alien visitations just because we can't explain them.

 

I have never said that.

 

I think we should do a better job separating alien visitations vs. ufos in this discussion, if we want it to make any sort of sense.

 

Other than UFOs there is no indication of alien visits.

 

If I see something flying in a weird way in the night's sky, it's a UFO. That doesn't make it an alien aircraft. To be convinced that it's an alien aircraft, I need proof that (a) alien aircrafts exist and that (b) in this particular case it was an alien aircraft.

 

No it is not an UFO, see the official definition of UFO I posted earlier.

 

You can see, then, how the two (UFOs and Alien Visitations) are said to be different arguments here.

 

~moo

 

No I do not see how to separate them, UFOs are the only indication of alien visits we have. a great many of them have no other reasonable explanation, even science has admitted this in some cases. That still proves nothing but i can show many sightings that have no other reasonable explanation I feel very strongly that no reasonable evidence will ever be considered at all much less as a possibility in UFOs being aliens.

 

Again, the veracity of UFO sightings is not what i am trying to discuss here, that would be a different thread altogether.

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Ok, everyone seems to be insisting there is no science in this, that science does not think there is anything to this, that nothing scientific can be gained by even looking into it. here is what science has to really say.

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Unidentified_flying_object

 

Allen Hynek was a trained astronomer who participated in Project Bluebook after doing research as a federal government employee. He formed the opinion that some UFO reports could not be scientifically explained. Through his founding of the Center for UFO Studies and participation at CUFOs he spent the rest of his life researching and documenting UFOs. The movie Close Encounters of the Third Kind had a character loosely based on Hynek. Another group studying UFOs is Mutual UFO Network. MUFON is a grass roots based organization known for publishing one of the first UFO investigators handbooks. This handbook went into great detail on how to document alleged UFO sightings.

 

more

 

Jacques Vallée, a scientist and prominent UFO researcher, has argued that most UFO research is scientifically deficient, including many government studies such as Project Blue Book, and that mythology and cultism are frequently associated with the phenomenon. Vallée states that self-styled scientists often fill the vacuum left by the lack of attention paid to the UFO phenomenon by official science, but also notes that several hundred professional scientists continue to study UFOs in private, what he terms the "invisible college". He also argues that much could be learned from rigorous scientific study, but that little such work has been done.[3]

 

 

then again

 

There has been little mainstream scientific study of UFOs, and the topic has received little serious attention or support in mainstream scientific literature. Official studies ended in the U.S. in December 1969, subsequent to the statement by Edward Condon that the study of UFOs probably could not be justified in the expectation that science would be advanced.[9] The Condon report and these conclusions were endorsed by the National Academy of Scientists, of which Condon was a member. However, a scientific review by the UFO subcommittee of the AIAA disagreed with Condon's conclusion, noting that at least 30% of the cases studied remained unexplained, and that scientific benefit might be gained by continued study.

even more

 

It has been claimed that all UFO cases are anecdotal[30] and that all can be explained as prosaic natural phenomena. On the other hand, it has been argued that there is limited awareness among scientists of observational data, other than what is reported in the popular press.[3][31]

 

 

This stuff goes on and on, I contend that the ridicule of the idea of UFOs as "nothing to see here move on folks" is counter productive to science and against the scientific method as well.

 

There is much more to UFOs than sillyness we must stamp out!

Edited May 12, 2010 by Moontanman
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[Mr Skeptic]

So aliens don't check out their craft or do not at least try as hard as we do to keep them from failing in mid "use"? I do not understand your point here.

 

The point that aliens have to have somewhere to do maintenance. An alien hanger, if you will. Their repair tools will also need repair/replacement.

 

Bullet proof? Why not? Try to shoot down a F-16 with a Sopwith Camel. Advanced technology should be extremely hard to shoot down at the very least.

 

Maybe, but I hear you can kill a shuttle with a pencil.

 

I am curious, I have just presented you with evidence that is not only unexplainable by any terrestrial means but it was seen by witnesses not connected with the three people harmed. No conventional explanation fits at all, why is it so despicable to suggest the ETI explanation? Radiation proves it was not only real but totally unnatural and unconventional and not a hallucination. Please name a possibility that makes sense other than the ETI idea?

 

What else could it be? What else flies, is obviously technology, leaves behind real evidence of it's reality in the form of radiation, and flies away into the sky? Nuclear powered birds?

 

Well, there's certainly natural sources of radiation. None that extreme on earth are natural, but we humans certainly can make much more radiation than that. We have, for example, considered making nuclear powered airplanes and rockets. Maybe someone made one in secret. I don't see why aliens would have a monopoly on this.

 

No the hypothesis is that this alien space craft did which specks to a another idea that alien space craft would be nuclear powered. It is not a huge leap to think a alien space craft would be nuclear powered in some way and a craft having problems might release radiation.

 

Hm, well that would certainly put a kink in the invulnerable aliens idea. Also, big flashes of radiation are not very compatible with stealth. See why I say its a bit contradictory?

 

To be honest this sighting is not my favortie and i think it has a another possible explanation but the alien explanation is at least a reasonable one to suggest in this case.

 

And there it is.

 

i am amazed you cannot see the possibility is quite good in this case if it weren;t for one small thing most people ignore but you haven't even brought up.

 

Well, some people are uncertain that it was radiation. Certainly couldn't have been any pure form of radiation, as that would be incompatible with the observed data.

 

As i said before i do not want to debate the evidence for UFOs being alien space craft, if you do start another thread.

 

Me neither. However, when myself and others stated our opinion on the topic, you decided to try to change our minds. I suppose the majority of this thread could be split to a new thread, but then it might be better to start a new one since this poll is kind of broken.

 

UFO by definition is an unknown with no conventional explanation, doesn't mean alien space craft but it doesn't apply to every light in the sky either.

 

Well, by that definition there are no documented UFOs. By a slightly different one (no known conventional explanation), there are a few, and by the most lenient there are all sorts of UFOs.

 

I am nothing if not flexible, if that makes a difference then please change the post to alien space ships and not UFOs, I doubt very seriously it will make any difference but feel free to change it, i cannot.

 

A good idea, but the poll will have to be redone as many may wish to change their votes. How about we suggest a new poll here, in this thread, and then start a new poll if there are no objections to it.

 

It is premise that most people have, i used it to illustrate a point, UFOs are the only indication we have of frequent alien visits, I see no reason to even suppose alien visits with out specking to the phenomenon of UFOs. No other phenomenon suggests there is any reason to even consider the possibility.

 

Nevertheless it is an extra premise. I have no trouble whatsoever temporarily assuming something regardless of whether there is any evidence for it. In fact, when I do proof by negation I temporarily assume a premise I know is false.

 

I think your idea backfired: not only was no one in the least more likely to accept your premise, but actually got people to distance themselves from it and also took the discussion off track.

 

If people assume only alien visits, they can choose for themselves whether they think UFO sightings would have anything to do with them or are evidence for them.

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Suggested new poll:

 

Suppose aliens have been visiting Earth. Then, the aliens most likely are ...

#1 Travelers from another star colonizing asteriods

#2 Travelers who occasionally stop by to study us and leave

#3 Remnants of an early human civilization

#4 Remnants of a pre-human civilization still present in the solar system

#5 A secret, technologically advanced group of humans living hidden here on earth

#6 Time travelers from our future

#7 Travelers from other dimensions - alternate worlds

#8 Supernatural beings we might as well call Gods or God.

#9 Some other option (please specify)

Edited May 12, 2010 by Mr Skeptic
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[Moontanman]

The point that aliens have to have somewhere to do maintenance. An alien hanger, if you will. Their repair tools will also need repair/replacement.

 

Beieve it or not that is where i was going with this.

 

Maybe, but I hear you can kill a shuttle with a pencil.

 

 

Thats more to do with it having to be so light to function due to it being chemically powered.

 

 

Well, there's certainly natural sources of radiation. None that extreme on earth are natural, but we humans certainly can make much more radiation than that. We have, for example, considered making nuclear powered airplanes and rockets. Maybe someone made one in secret. I don't see why aliens would have a monopoly on this.

 

 

The US claims this particular case is not their doing in any way shape or form.

 

 

Hm, well that would certainly put a kink in the invulnerable aliens idea. Also, big flashes of radiation are not very compatible with stealth. See why I say its a bit contradictory?

 

You say invulnerable, i seem then as technically advanced enough to be much more reliable than our technology is but still a malfunction is possible.

 

Well, some people are uncertain that it was radiation. Certainly couldn't have been any pure form of radiation, as that would be incompatible with the observed data.

 

 

There is no doubt it was radiation, probably x-rays or gamma rays but the kicker in this case is the helicopters seen by several other witnesses as well. Either this was a US government test vehicle or the US gov knows aliens space craft are visiting. No other explanation makes sense if the helicopters are real.

 

 

 

Me neither. However, when myself and others stated our opinion on the topic, you decided to try to change our minds. I suppose the majority of this thread could be split to a new thread, but then it might be better to start a new one since this poll is kind of broken.

 

My bad, hard for me not to respond to ridicule of the idea. this is more to this than just silliness.

 

Well, by that definition there are no documented UFOs. By a slightly different one (no known conventional explanation), there are a few, and by the most lenient there are all sorts of UFOs.

 

 

I was told to stick to the official definition. by the official definition there are indeed UFOs.

 

A good idea, but the poll will have to be redone as many may wish to change their votes. How about we suggest a new poll here, in this thread, and then start a new poll if there are no objections to it.

 

Works for me, i know i screwed the pooch on this one for sure.

 

 

Nevertheless it is an extra premise. I have no trouble whatsoever temporarily assuming something regardless of whether there is any evidence for it. In fact, when I do proof by negation I temporarily assume a premise I know is false.

 

I will just have to agree to disagree on that.

 

I think your idea backfired: not only was no one in the least more likely to accept your premise, but actually got people to distance themselves from it and also took the discussion off track.

 

That is because of the unreasonable ridicule the subject of UFOs inspire, mostly due to the media circus surrounding it and the official government position which is not necessarily the official position by science as I have shown in the previous post.

 

If people assume only alien visits, they can choose for themselves whether they think UFO sightings would have anything to do with them or are evidence for them.

 

Works for me

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Suggested new poll:

 

Suppose aliens have been visiting Earth. Then, the aliens most likely are ...

#1 Travelers from another star colonizing asteriods

#2 Travelers who occasionally stop by to study us and leave

#3 Remnants of an early human civilization

#4 Remnants of a pre-human civilization still present in the solar system

#5 A secret, technologically advanced group of humans living hidden here on earth

#6 Time travelers from our future

#7 Travelers from other dimensions - alternate worlds

#8 Supernatural beings we might as well call Gods or God.

#9 Some other option (please specify)

 

I'm not particularly comfortable with option 7 that seems like another thread to me. Other than that it works for me.

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that would be completely unrelated to the exitance of ufo's as you well know.

 

No, not really, as I have shown there is not only real evidence bu the idea it is all silliness below looking into is not the stance of science. I tis the stance of the government and the media, not real science.

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Ok, since this thread has disintegrated into a debate about the validity of UFO reports and what they mean and how much weight such reports have been given and whether or not science has studied UFO reports i would like to add what I think is the most important aspect of UFOs and science.

 

"Hoax Theory"

 

UFOs are at the center of one of the biggest hoaxes in the history of the US government and by proxy most other governments as well if no other reason simply by saying other governments reports are less than accurate because they weren't done by the US.

 

The first two US government investigations offered a strong possibility that some UFOs were nuts and bolts space craft, probably extraterrestrial in origin. Their reports were simply not accepted by a general who said such a thing was impossible. so new investigations came back with what he wanted to hear.

 

From that time forward the actual thrust of the US government studies of UFOs was to explain them away as hallucinations, misidentified conventional objects, or hoaxes. No real investigations were undertaken, the idea was to prove they were bogus, not to investigate what they were.

 

Scientists like Dr. Allen Hynek complained about this and eventually left the government study groups, documents released by freedom of information acts verify that the government/military had no interest in UFOs other than to explain them away with the least effort.

 

In common conspiracy theories you have "men in black" visiting people and telling them things like you must never tell or other wise warning them to keep quiet. the reality was that wittinesses were often bullied and badgered into recanting what they saw not keeping secretes. The police officer of 1964 Socorro UFO encounter was badgered repeatedly to get him to recant but he never did.

 

Most people who are skeptics today think that the governments efforts to investigate UFOs was in good faith and resulted in no physical or scientific evidence of anything. This is the real hoax, the government pulled off this hoax for their own reasons but it can be seen in documents and papers that were published at the time.

 

They did intensionally steer the investigations toward simple things and dismissing people out of hand and ridiculing people was how they worked this "hoax", they were pretty open about it at the time because most people didn't realize that starting out to prove something you believe to be true is not science.

 

Modern UFO "reports" from places like U-tube and the popular media hype of UFO lends an air of craziness and makes the idea of what the government claimed 40 years ago seem very truthful in comparison with the cottage industry that has grown in popular media to see who can make the best fakes and get the most people to look. this doesn't apply to just UFOs a great many things are hyped this way now days.

 

The fact remains that UFO studies were fatally flawed by the simple notion that investigations started out with what they wanted to prove instead of starting out to see what the evidence held. Of the few official science investigations done they were often withheld critical evidence unless they were with the "program"

 

This hoax by the government has taken away all possible credibility of UFOs simply by ridicule and a single minded need to disprove any possible mystery behind UFOs. Some say it was a vast conspiracy due to the government being in direct contact with aliens who exchanged being able to travel and do as they pleased in our sky's for technology. But like most conspiracy stories it ignores a simpler reason that makes more sense in context with the times.

 

The first two investigations had the bad luck to report to someone who just refused to believe the possibility of such a thing. Like rocks falling from the sky in an earlier time the idea of nuts and bolts space craft was too far outside his world view and the idea we couldn't do anything about it was just too much. Even those reports admitted they had no solid proof just speculations based on what evidence they already had.

 

Even later independent investigation inside the government tended to side with the possibility of actual alien space craft but were always hushed up in favor of the ridicule and debunking mindset.

 

The most likely reason the government/military wanted to stop interest in UFOs was the fear that such a belief could be used in an attack and people could be induced into calling in and locking up data sources like telephones and a wide spread panic induced by the soviets this way could make the USA vulnerable to attack.

 

Even way after this was no longer a likelihood the idea that UFOs must be squashed and people must be convince they are nothing to be concerned about staggered on like lots of government ideas, they never die once they get momentum going. Then there is the almost total inability for the government to admit to being wrong, making a mistake (especially back then) was just not something the government did, they wanted the government to seem incapable of making mistakes.

 

So the whole idea that UFOs have been scientifically investigated and found to be nothing of significance is simply not true. But of course back then people did lie, they did try to fake stuff but then technology was more advanced than the fakes and the fakes were most often found. But the fact remains that very few UFO sightings were really investigated with scientific rigor.

 

Sadly I'm not sure we can go back and do most or even any over, witnesses are dead, evidence has just been thrown out due to the success of the government hoax. Now days in part due to the hoax but mostly due to the idea that faking is fun and cool and very easy and very difficult to expose the signal to noise ratio of good sightings to bullshit is far to high to figure out what is really going on if anything.

 

The hoax theory does not prove UFOs are alien space craft but it does indicate the the idea of UFOs being studied in the context of real science just didn't happen then and other than a few isolated incidents it doesn't happen now.