Question about fuel and energy.

[Gorgias]

I hope this is in the right forum if not please forgive me for my ignorance.

 

Is there a fuel that when used will create more energy than is required to create that fuel?

 

As an example It takes 50 KWH to create one KG of this fuel. When you burn this fuel to heat a steam turbine generator the generator then creates more energy than it took to make the fuel?

 

So then you could take this fuel to operate the steam generator which would it turn operate the machine to make more of this fuel plus excess? So the fuel cannot be wood or coal etc it is a man made fuel like gasoline or hydrogen etc.

 

Is this possible or does it violate the law of energy conservation or perhaps some other law of science? Thanks for any help.

Edited February 4, 2010 by Gorgias

[swansont]

I hope this is in the right forum if not please forgive me for my ignorance.

 

Is there a fuel that when used will create more energy than is required to create that fuel?

 

As an example It takes 50 KWH to create one KG of this fuel. When you burn this fuel to heat a steam turbine generator the generator then creates more energy than it took to make the fuel?

 

So then you could take this fuel to operate the steam generator which would it turn operate the machine to make more of this fuel plus excess? So the fuel cannot be wood or coal etc it is a man made fuel like gasoline or hydrogen etc.

 

Is this possible or does it violate the law of energy conservation or perhaps some other law of science? Thanks for any help.

 

No, it always takes more energy to create the fuel than the fuel can contain. Conservation of energy tells you that they can, at best, be equal. The second law of thermodynamics says that the creation will not be 100% efficient.

[Bob_for_short]

No, there is no such a fuel. It would violate the energy conservation law.

 

In order to create a fuel from simple elements, you have to spend some energy. Not all of it will go into the fuel since there is no 100% efficient transformation processes. Some part will be lost in the environment.

 

While transforming the fuel energy into mechanical one, there are also losses. So you cannot even recuperate the originally spent energy. This is a law of nature. Physics just describes this experimental fact.

[Gorgias]

No, it always takes more energy to create the fuel than the fuel can contain. Conservation of energy tells you that they can, at best, be equal. The second law of thermodynamics says that the creation will not be 100% efficient.

 

So that would violate the law of energy conservation and the second law of thermodynamics?

 

Lets use hydrogen as an example. lets say you pour water into an electrolysis machine to get hydrogen. The hydrogen is then used to heat a steam generator to create electricity.

 

It would be correct to say that the above is an open system rather than an isolated system? How would I go about explaining to someone else that that idea is an open system and violates the law of energy conservation and the second law of thermodynamics IF that is violating both.

[insane_alien]

you won't get enough electricity from the turbine to electrolyse the necessary hydrogen. the water system may as well be closed loop. but extra electricity would have to come from outside and heat would have to be rejected from somewhere.

[swaha]

what if some mass of the fuel gets converted to energy example radioactive fuels!!!!!

[insane_alien]

it would still take more energy to make the waste products back into fuel again.

[StrontiDog]

Is there a fuel that when used will create more energy than is required to create that fuel?

 

I'm not really sure what 'create the fuel' means. It always takes consumable raw materials of some kind, which have the energy already locked-up inside them in some fashion.

 

We get far more energy out of fossil and nuclear fuels than it takes to mine, refine transport and convert to electricity, but that doesn't sound like it fits the definition of 'create'. It's not like we're putting most of the energy into it before we take it back out in the form of electricity.

 

Even wind, solar or hydroelectric power needs something akin to raw materials, a steady supply of 'free' wind, photons or rainfall upstream of the dam.

 

I'm not sure this question has any answer besides a simple 'No.'

 

Bill Wolfe

[henchez]

The question about fuel and energy has been a controversial issue.

Firstly, we need to get the wider picture; Do we need to make a cheaper fuel without minding what the effect will mean to our crisis-stricken environment? Or more so, do we need a type of fuel no matter the cost but which cannot adversely affect the mother earth?

In line to these arguments butressed, I am a strong advocate of the second; the need for a cleaner fuel. Considering the generations unborn, we must strive to preserve the environment.

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Merged post follows:

Consecutive posts merged

The question about fuel and energy has been a controversial issue.

 

Firstly, we need to get the wider picture; Do we need to make a cheaper fuel without minding what the effect will mean to our crisis-stricken environment? Or more so, do we need a type of fuel no matter the cost but which cannot adversely affect the mother earth?

 

In line to these arguments butressed, I am a strong advocate of the second; the need for a cleaner fuel. Considering the generations unborn, we must strive to preserve the environment.

 

It is in line with this that I solicit for the support of all and sundry to act wisely and considerably and not to allow our selfish motives to dominate our actions.

From Henchez

[Newbies_Kid]

"As an example It takes 50 KWH to create one KG of this fuel. When you burn this fuel to heat a steam turbine generator the generator then creates more energy than it took to make the fuel?"

 

If the efficiency of that steam turbine is larger than the efficiency of that fuel-producing machine, this should be possible right?

 

 

 

So then you could take this fuel to operate the steam generator which would it turn operate the machine to make more of this fuel plus excess? So the fuel cannot be wood or coal etc it is a man made fuel like gasoline or hydrogen etc.

 

 

I can't imagine this... but mechanical system has it's own losses. Even in alchemy we cannot produce more than what we put in. That's what we call a law of equivalent exchange. (l'm a fan of FMA)