UK knife crime

[bascule]

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/6145785/Scouts-to-no-longer-bring-penknives-on-camping-trips.html

 

Apparently knife crime in the UK is such that a knife vendor who trains scouts on knife safety is recommending scouts not be allowed to take knives camping. Crazy.

 

Sounds like there are quite a few people who support the scouts having knives. It seems pretty nuts to me that scouts not be allowed penknives or swiss army knives.

[Pangloss]

I am an Eagle Scout so I might be somewhat biased on this matter. It does sound a bit over the top. We were allowed to carry things like Swiss Army knives and cooking-related knives. Large knives like Bowies required permission from the Scoutmaster or another adult leader. There was also training on knife use, and some merit badges dealt with knife safety.

 

One thing about the article kinda bugged me:

 

"It is also suggested that the leader keeps control of the knives when they go camping, but I think that is completely wrong. The first Scout Law is 'The Scout is to be trusted'. Scouts love having knives and using them properly. There is nothing wrong with it."

 

This is a distortion of the first law of scouting, perhaps due to a misunderstanding by the reporter. In the US scouts rail off a litany of single words that begins with "trustworthy"*, but in the original Baden-Powell book it was actually written as "a scout's honor is to be trusted". As the one-word version suggests, he didn't mean that scouts should always be trusted. He meant that scouts should behave in a manner worthy of trust. The law is aimed at scouts, not those leading them.

 

It does not mean that scouts receive some sort of automatic trust. They don't pass out bazookas at scout meetings and just assume the best.

 

 

 

* ... followed by loyal, helpful, friendly, courteous, kind, obedient, cheerful, thrifty, brave, clean and reverent. I'm afraid I never was too cheerful about reverent, but I obediently did my cheerful best.

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I remembered after I posted the above that not all troops are the same. There are a lot of different kinds of situations that scout troops exist in. Some of them require different rules.

 

When I was an older scout I spent some time (at my father's insistence) working with an all-black scout troop in downtown Atlanta, less than half a mile from the Techwood Homes housing project. To say it was an eye-opener for this suburban kid is an understatement, and the main thing I remember about it was the complete and utter poverty of the typical scout.

 

Anyway, they weren't allowed to have knives of any size or type. Given the environment, this is perhaps not too surprising. I wonder if the central scouting authority in Britain (which I believe is a completely separate organization from the US version, btw) decided that the risk outweighs the benefits because of some incidents or something.

[Klaynos]

I'm a scout leader in the UK. The scout law in the UK complies with the WOSM laws (which can be found online) and now contains "A scout is to be trusted."

 

Leaving that aside.

 

Knife crime is a favourite media subject in the UK at the moment, this has lead to a lot of hype and people being slightly crazy, there was a recent poll that showed something like 80% of 11 year olds claimed to have carried a knife, this was reported as being terrible but is such an ambiguous question that it could mean a butter knife being carried to a table or similar.

[CaptainPanic]

Aaaaahhh....

 

Media reports about incidents, makes stupid conclusions and goverments/organisations follow by making stupid laws/rules.

 

Some people seem to think that safety should be the primary goal in life. That any avoidable death or injury should be avoided at all cost... Preferably by making something illegal, and demanding that the already overworked local police squad check everybody. Great.

 

This won't work.

 

It is not possible to create a society where the individuals have no responsibility for their own safety and the safety of those around them. And since this is impossible, why are we even trying?

 

Can somebody just start suing the media for spreading terror among the population please? Damn, I'm not sure about the rest of the world, but the Netherlands has never been as safe as it is now. Yet we keep getting new laws that restrict us... generally speaking, these laws cost a lot of money, and might avoid one or two deaths per year. Sorry, that means they're not worth it. You cannot tie all the stupid people down because they might kill themselves. You cannot outlaw all sharp objects because they might become a murder weapon.

 

And about the knife violence. Yes, some streets are dangerous in the UK. Yes, knife crime went up (actually, I haven't seen any statistics). At the same time, other crimes went down. The amount of murders per year remained nearly constant. Why are people so terrified? Why is the UK becoming such a police state? There is no point.

 

Why don't we invest all this money in cancer research? I'm sure that would avoid a lot more deaths... deaths that are equally random and sad.

Edited September 8, 2009 by CaptainPanic

[Sisyphus]

there was a recent poll that showed something like 80% of 11 year olds claimed to have carried a knife, this was reported as being terrible but is such an ambiguous question that it could mean a butter knife being carried to a table or similar.

 

That's hilarious. I keep hearing reports like this that seem to show British people terrified of their own children. Not "teens running wild," which I think has always been a fear in most societies, but actual children, like, 11 year olds with butter knives. I don't know how much truth there is in that, but the buzz is amusing.

 

Anyway, is there even any indication that scouts carrying knives have caused any problems? If not, why is this being discussed? And what's the deal with clamping down on sharpened bits of metal, anyway? How do you guys eat steak?

[insane_alien]

sisyphus, its not about kitcken utensils being weilded as such, its about the neds and chavs carrying around everything from kitchen knifes to machetes and stabbing each other with it.

 

personall, i see nothing wrong with scouts having a knife since they tend to be responsible about it and not go around using it to threaten people.

 

but knife crime is a big problem. in glasgow and paisely there is definitely large problem. you can't really go out a night and NOT see two idiots threatening each other with bladed weaponry.

[Sisyphus]

I guess I'll have to take your word for it that it's a real problem. It seems like they're approaching it in the wrong way, though. It seems extremely silly to try to outlaw sharp stuff. It's like the "guns don't kill people" argument taken to extremes. Obviously the problem is not the availability of sharp bits of metal.

 

(That said, I definitely agree with banning knives in specific circumstances, like schools and courtrooms and such. Just not scouts in the woods learning to use a tool. There is no more "appropriate setting.")

[insane_alien]

the knife crime is really just a symptom of deeper social problems. the government seems to recognise this but doesn't seem to be doing anything to treat the cause.

 

they are handling it wrong and i suspect that they know they're handling it wrong but they aren't doing anything to rectify it.

[Klaynos]

http://www.publications.parliament.uk/pa/cm200809/cmselect/cmhaff/112/9012702.htm

 

This is the proceedings from the scout association (largest scout organisation in the UK) presenting evidence to a parliamentary select committee, these are made up of members of the UK parliament to investigate within their remit.

 

It makes interesting reading.

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Knife crime is not a problem within scouting, at the time of the evidence there were no reported cases within scouting in the UK. As far as I'm aware there have been none since.

[john5746]

let'm have guns, that'll solve the knife problem. hmmm.... maybe Americans can get the country singers together and have a gun aid tour, give guns to England.