So you think we are alone in this infinite universe?

[CHAOS]

I am interested in seeing how many people believe (or don't) in aliens and why. A person who doesn't beleive in them might argue the following points:

 

1 - The universe is huge and the chances of them visiting Earth is slim

2 - If a type III civilization existed we would notice them

3 - They would have trouble communicating with us

4 - They would require resistance to the germs on Earth

 

Well I do believe in aliens and I will explain why, going over each of these points.

We are just taking our baby steps as a civilization and we can't assume we know the workings of a type III civilization. NASA has admitted to the existence of unidentified objects in space, some NASA footage even shows such crafts leaving the Earths atmosphere. Professionals are unable to explain such events and come to the conclusion that they are highly quantized crafts. They can get up to 3 nautical miles wide, and can travel at ridiculous speeds. NASA has endless footage of such crafts. 62 children all witnessed the landing of a UFO and the aliens that got out of the craft. The children claim the aliens were telepathically trying to warn them of something but that's getting off topic. Did 62 children lie? A man recently claimed to have been abducted by aliens, he also claims that they implanted a microchip of some sort inside him. Experts soon found the device inside him and began testing it. It was found to contain isotopes never seen before by man kind and it couldn't be cut with the doctors scapal. Has a secret quantum/particle physics department of the Government been developing such isotopes for use in microchips and implanting them in people or have aliens done it? Well unless the Government try to act like aliens in hope of keeping in the dark, I don't think it was the Government. Search up all of these occurrences if you question my credibility, they are fact.

 

1.

So the first question is why would they visit Earth and how likely is it? The universe is infinite, you might picture it as a sphere, expanding since the big bang. So what happens when I get to the edge of the universe, go past it and start exploring nothingness, I think that I will eventually find another universe. Time did not start with the big bang, that is the start of our universes expansion, time is infinite and I obviously can't prove that, but consider this: First we were the center of the universe, then our sun was the center of the universe, now our universe depicts the start of time...hmmm. My point is, given infinite space and time anything can occur. It is the premises of life. An infinite amount of life forms exist out there, given enough time, chances are one will discover Earth.

 

2.

Do you really think a type III civilization wouldn't have the technology to stay hidden. You ask why would they hide themselves? Well I'm going to give to 2 answers to this question: #1 They are observing us. #2 They realize we are not ready to become part of a galactic civilization, we are primitive, we kill each other for god's sake! Until we wise up, they are doing themselves a favor keeping hidden, but they cannot remain perfectly hidden and we now know they exist. My personal theory is that they came to Earth long ago and combined the genetics of apes and their own species, this is scientifically backed up: the missing chromosomes, the lack of a middle man remains (the stage in between primates and modern humans). I think we are their grand experiment, a genetic combination of themselves and us. So if they are so advanced, wouldn't we notice their huge infrastructure? Again I will give 3 answers: #1 They live in an entirely different universe. #2 They are able to make the infrastructure invisible, it is all highly quantized, visible only with cameras that can pick up electromagnetic frequencies out of the visible light spectrum. #3 They extract zero-point energy from the quantum foam so there is no need for massive energy harvesting machines.

 

3.

They would have absolutely no trouble communicating with us. They could learn all the languages of Earth in the blink of an eye using super computers, but I'm sure they already know all the languages, they have been observing us since they created us. They don't speak vocally, they talk telepathically, and can talk telepathically to humans, although we must respond vocally.

 

4.

There's a few ways they might achieve this: genetic manipulation of themselves, an atmospheric shield or they might just exist as higher beings, rid of a physical body and the need for physical necessities, beings made of pure quantized energy, able to change into any form they want to take, they can even look "real" and solid if they like. In natural form they might look like a ghost. This paragraph is all speculation, as is a lot of this post but you should get the point, they are much more advanced than us and not to be underestimated, we are just variables in their experiment!

[npts2020]

The aliens probably will tell us "so long and thanks for all the fish". Seriously though, anyone here would probably like to see any reliable evidence of what you are claiming. Hollywood has thousands of pictures and films of aliens and their craft, too.

[mooeypoo]

There's a HUGE difference between believing there's life out there (which I do) and believing it came to our planet (which I am skeptical of) and believing its technology is good enough to come here but bad enough in hiding properly (which is slightly odd), and believing that their interest is in scaring occasional farmers and mutilating poor cows (which is quite .. silly).

 

The trouble with the UFOers, is that they go from a relatively believable premise ("there is life out there") to an outrageous conclusion ("whatever we don't recognize, and flies, is an alient craft conspiracy!") that involves conspiracy theories much bigger than a single country, a single aircraft, and a pack of cows.

 

As the sayin goes: Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence.

[SkepticLance]

I think we can ignore the 'alien landings and abductions' part of this thread as so much hocus pocus.

 

However, there are a couple of sensible questions there also.

 

1. Probability of aliens versus size of the universe.

It is estimated that there are 100 billion stars in our galaxy and 100 billion plus galaxies in the universe, plus or minus a substantial error factor.

The numbers are so large that to assume no other intelligent life anywhere is being quite irrational. So, yes, there probably is intelligent and technologically advanced life elsewhere in the universe.

 

We also need to take the time factor into account. The universe is 13.7 billion years old, and life on Earth only 4 billion or less. Even if life can exist only after Generation III stars came into being, that leaves an awful long time for intelligence to evolve. If intelligent life were to turn out to be common, a number of such intelligences would have come into existence some billions of years ago.

 

However, what of such intelligences coming to visit?? According to everything we know about physics, travel at faster than light is not possible. Indeed, without a major break through into totally new physics, the maximum speed a starship might attain is only 0.1 to 0.2 C. This means that, just to cross our own galaxy without stopping, would take 500,000 to 1000,000 years.

 

This is liable to put a bit of a crimp into interstellar travel, and make intergalactic travel impossible. This reduces the probability of alien visits dramatically.

 

2. Re Type III civilisations. You should realise that the classification into types I, II, and III is a totally subjective, arbitrary, and imaginative thing. There is no objective reason to consider that such a classification has any meaning whatever. My own view is that clustering around a star to gather its energy is a bit pointless. There is unbelievably large quantities of energy available in plain old water, via fusion power. And there is an enormous amount of water in the universe.

 

If you are going to build totally artificial structures to live in, why restrict yourself to a tiny space near a star? The whole universe is available, just by putting a fusion generator in your habitat.

 

Could an advanced species hide?? Sure. Interstellar space is so enormous that you could hide a trillion space cities and have no chance of discovery. Using fusion generators, only infra red would escape, and that could be arranged to resemble the heat loss from a nebula or similar. However, why would they bother?

 

3. Communicating with us would be a matter of desire. If they wanted to, they would. There is no indication that any alien civilisation has ever made the effort.

 

4. Earth germs? An advanced society could deal with that, if it turned out they were vulnerable, which is not likely. Even on Earth, diseases cross the species barrier mainly with closely related species. An alien species that had originated and evolved on another world would be so incredibly different that it is hard to imagine an Earth germ able to affect them.

[CHAOS]

I really find it funny that no matter how much evidence is shown, if the topic is touchy, like this one, some people just wont believe! Do you think the extraterestrial isotope is not enough evidence? Even the experts said that this could not be anything other than what it seems to be...open your eyes people!

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I guess I forgot one point...travel. As I said, who knows what technology they have, they might open a worm hole/black hole and jump light years in an instant. I see what your getting at with the type III civilization, I was trying to express this point aswell, when I use the term I just mean a really advanced civilization. PS - the evidence isn't hard to find, search alien implants on google or youtube!

Edited January 13, 2009 by CHAOS
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[mooeypoo]

I guess that depends what you call evidence, Chaos.

 

In the other thread I've asked you how you would differentiate between equally "weird" (unplausible?) statements if your definition of "proof" is so broad.

 

You've brought no references, no actual sightings, no pictures, no links, NOTHING for us to even *analyze*.

 

What evidence are you talking about?

[CHAOS]

You asked for it...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TJ8wTq3HcDk&feature=related

[mooeypoo]

You might not be surprised, but you're not the first one to raise the question of UFOs and general rumors-are-true ideas in this forum. Please refer to the following:

 

http://www.scienceforums.net/forum/showthread.php?t=35806&highlight=UFO

http://www.scienceforums.net/forum/showthread.php?t=32290&highlight=UFO

(this is also about evidence and how to analyze them, specifically YT videos and the likes:) http://www.scienceforums.net/forum/showthread.php?t=30482&highlight=UFO

http://www.scienceforums.net/forum/showthread.php?t=32930&highlight=UFO

http://www.scienceforums.net/forum/showthread.php?t=31986&highlight=UFO

http://www.scienceforums.net/forum/showthread.php?t=31133&highlight=UFO

 

I will watch taht video with an open mind, though, I promise. You should consider, however, that when we (a *science* forum) request for evidence, we generally mean *scientific* evidence. Peer reviewed, proven, observations and math.

 

Do read the rules.

 

~moo

[CHAOS]

Do you not trust what the doctor says? Is it not solid enough? Do you really expect any one to find solid evidence that has been proven by observation and math? We are talking about aliens here...

[Sayonara]

If you are going to build totally artificial structures to live in, why restrict yourself to a tiny space near a star? The whole universe is available, just by putting a fusion generator in your habitat.

There are some reasons.

 

1. Why would you want to live in an interstellar void?
   
2. Remaining near the star gives you an energy alternative in the event of catastrophic power generation failure,
   
3. The system may still contain planets or other bodies with civilisations with whom the habitat dwellers trade or engage in other beneficial relations,
   
4. Even a civilisation with abundant energy from fusion might consider it wasteful to power out of the star's orbit for no real reason.
   

 

Although in principle, no, there's nothing stopping a civilisation from moving away from their star.

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Do you not trust what the doctor says? Is it not solid enough? Do you really expect any one to find solid evidence that has been proven by observation and math? We are talking about aliens here...

If they are out there, it's only a matter of time before that evidence arrives. At the moment though we do not have any such evidence, only speculation, and there is only so much time and effort that busy and sensible people are prepared to devote to that speculation.

[CHAOS]

My question is: How much evidence does it take before people believe?

[iNow]

Just one example of GOOD evidence that doesn't have a more reasonable and better explanation.

[Sayonara]

Just one example of GOOD evidence

Quoted for emphasis.

[CHAOS]

Yes, I thought it was pretty compelling evidence...

[mooeypoo]

The burden of proof is on the person making the claims.

 

That would be you. Stop being lazy, CHAOS, we've been over this many times before on lengthy discussions (I posted a few). If you think you have *compelling* evidence, supply them. Otherwise, perhaps you should look into this forum for better reception of unproven ideas.

 

~moo

[SkepticLance]

Chaos

I went to the trouble of watching your video.

There is no convincing evidence there, except perhaps that the doctor involved is a fraudster. The movie "Star Wars" contains better video evidence of extraterrestrials, and it is unashamedly fake.

 

If someone had genuine alien technology implanted, and this was removed surgically, the results should be written up in a reputable peer reviewed scientific journal. This would be much better evidence than a thoroughly amateurish video.

[Sayonara]

This thread is now on 24 Hour Suicide Watch.

 

The OP has failed or is failing to support their position, has not managed the thread in a sufficient manner, or is encouraging a disordered discussion. The OP must bring the thread under control within 24 hours of the time of this post in order for the thread to stay open.

 

If the thread does not turn into a normal and rational discussion within this time then it will be closed without any consideration of the moderation policy.

[Baby Astronaut]

Do you not trust what the doctor says? Is it not solid enough?

Science is not about trust.

 

Do you really expect any one to find solid evidence that has been proven by observation and math?

Of course not. But then it's not science. It's possible you're caught up in the media's hyped up presentation of science, where entertainment often trumps facts.

 

It's fine if a group of special investigators, or friends, or concerned watchdog organizations speculate on alien existence, or if they're among us, or on possible cover-ups, etc, and try to increase awareness of the possibilities. But it's not science. When these groups point to a remark by a scientist about how the universe is so big it must contain life, that's not science either. It's just a person giving an opinion. Maybe the show counts on you not realizing this. Higher ratings. It'd be nice if they informed you that what you hear isn't proper science. Would it lower ratings? Who knows. But realize there is a clear distinction of what is science and just mere opinion.

Edited January 13, 2009 by Baby Astronaut

[CHAOS]

Yes, I can see why the video is hard to believe but I did actually see it on television first so I thought it was genuine, I will try to find more reliable evidence as it seems this is not enough..for the time being, here is the case with the 62 children...sorry, it to is a youtube video but is not a fruad, it is written in the history books, it happened a while ago.

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It seems Dr. Roger Leir is infact legitimate. He has released 4 books that you can purchase here: http://www.amazon.com/Aliens-Scalpel-Scientific-Extraterrestrial-Millennium/dp/1893183017 and here http://www.ufocongressstore.com/servlet/the-77/Dr.-Roger-Leir-Presents/Detail

 

I also found what looks to be part of one of his books: http://www.lambros.name/pdf/Aliens_and_Scalpel.pdf

Edited January 13, 2009 by CHAOS
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[Sayonara]

You aren't a naturally discerning person, are you?

[CHAOS]

I once believed that aliens didn't exist, I thought we were in the lead but there comes a time when the evidence speaks for it's self, when there is so much, and some of it is so solid that I am forced to a conclusion. Had this been any other topic, the amount of evidence would have quickly brought things to a conculsion a long time ago.

[Sisyphus]

People do want to believe, CHAOS. We've got SETI looking for any sign of intelligent life. We've got mission after mission to Mars, and you better believe that every last person in mission control would like nothing more than to find a sign - any sign - that we're not alone, even if our neighbors are nothing more than microbes, even if they're already extinct. These are reasonable, scientific efforts. We haven't found anything yet, but we're still looking.

 

The reason people don't believe is not because they don't want to, but because there is, so far, no credible evidence. There's nothing presented as "evidence" that doesn't either have a far more likely explanation or is simply not real. But some people want to believe so badly that they'll try to make the facts fit. And if they don't understand science and are willing to take new age religions at face value, they can be persuaded of anything.

 

So yes, in a universe as large as ours, it is practically certain that there is other life out there. But we haven't found it, and because of the distances and time frames involved, unfortunately we may never find it. But I hope we do.

[SkepticLance]

Chaos

This is the science forum. The people here will not be convinced by videos or by written claims, or by stories.

 

We look for proper scientific evidence. Your earlier video claimed that something like 6 alien devises were surgically removed from alien abductees, and they were made of unknown elements or alloys, and were weird and mysterious in their functioning. Unless your doctor is a total moron, he would have given these to different institutions for testing and analysis. Some would have published their findings in peer reviewed and reputable scientific journals, assuming the gadgets were indeed of extraterrestrial origin.

 

That is what we are looking for. Give us the references to those papers. We can then read them and decide. If the evidence is strong, it becomes credible. If there is nothing in reputable journals, then we have to assume there is no credible evidence.

[Baby Astronaut]

Chaos

This is the science forum. The people here will not be convinced by videos or by written claims, or by stories.

Or even if people here are convinced, they would meticulously separate this inner conviction from any scientific claims they make. *Optimally*

 

Even if every scientist in the world downright believed the video, they would refrain to make scientific claims about it without falsifiable evidence at hand. That's why scientists who believe in a higher being don't make *scientific* claims about that higher being.

 

Faith depends on suspicions, mental logic, feelings, etc. Occasionally, these could lead someone to observe, experiment, test the results, and have it all done again by other people. But then its conclusions are no longer faith, and you are looking at science.

 

What any of us sees in a video or presentation, if it doesn't include testable evidence, is a matter of potential credibility -- decided by the viewer on grounds of personal logic and/or faith -- and it could be something we believe and even discuss among friends, peers or colleagues, yet it's not something we can debate about in a forum that's designated for science. Unless we have evidence to back up any of the claims.

[Sayonara]

Thread suicide.