darkkazier Posted October 10, 2006 Share Posted October 10, 2006 Yeah, dictators and illegitimate regimes just aren't safe anymore... Well i believe that all governments are corrupt at their heart, its the people of that country that keep them somewhat honest. So, if slowly the people begin to accept little changes here and their, oh, torture is alright, invasion of privacy is okay, preemptive strikes are fine etc, then what's to stop the government from continuing this slow march towards evil? If the PEOPLE are willing to accept then the government will surely do it. And you have to remember, all policy made today most likely won't change when a different regime gets in power or when the culture of a country changes so open ended policy without firm restrictions will leave open for a government that might decide to truly enfore the whole "if you're not with us you're against us" mentality. Remember, that is our current government's own words, its only the will of the people keeping them from going further. If you believe that government is this wonderful thing that only looking out for our best interest then you should look back into history, any period in history at any group, and you'll see the government persecuted people and ideas one way or another. "When a nation's government becomes more fearful of its citizens' rights than protective of them, that nation's future is only despotism and extinction." Unknown Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ParanoiA Posted October 11, 2006 Share Posted October 11, 2006 Well i believe that all governments are corrupt at their heart, its the people of that country that keep them somewhat honest. So, if slowly the people begin to accept little changes here and their, oh, torture is alright, invasion of privacy is okay, preemptive strikes are fine etc, then what's to stop the government from continuing this slow march towards evil? If the PEOPLE are willing to accept then the government will surely do it. And you have to remember, all policy made today most likely won't change when a different regime gets in power or when the culture of a country changes so open ended policy without firm restrictions will leave open for a government that might decide to truly enfore the whole "if you're not with us you're against us" mentality. Remember, that is our current government's own words, its only the will of the people keeping them from going further. If you believe that government is this wonderful thing that only looking out for our best interest then you should look back into history, any period in history at any group, and you'll see the government persecuted people and ideas one way or another. "When a nation's government becomes more fearful of its citizens' rights than protective of them, that nation's future is only despotism and extinction." Unknown You're preaching to a libertarian about freedom... Torture has always been alright. Invasion of privacy has always been a government desire. And preemptive strikes are as old as time. Imagine what kind of conflict the 6 day Israeli war would have been if they didn't strike preemptively. Where do you think those lines on the map come from? People being fair and just and dividing up land equitably? Whether you realize it or not, just about every border in the world is negotiable by force and it's also by force the status quo is maintained. My government is not a wonderful thing that takes care of us and I trust other country's governments even less. I have no interest in fairness. I have interest in secure domination, like any other predator. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
darkkazier Posted October 11, 2006 Share Posted October 11, 2006 first let me just say that for once someone is willing to be brutally honest and not beat around the bush which is rare in people and I respect you for that. now on to business... i am well aware that preemptive strikes have been in history since the beginning of civilization. but that doesn't make it the right thing to do. I think your domination and predator thing is exactly what causes fear in others, which leads to them becoming "paranoid" thinking we are always looking for a chance to get them. A real predator is always looking for ways to dominate and rule the weak. I think we can be secure and powerful without inflicting fear and hatred in others. NK is a perfect example of a crazy man full of paranoia who thinks the U.S. is out to get him. did we cause that? no we didn't but we shouldn't add fuel to his insane fire. Think about it, we have thousands of Nukes, Big world ending nukes, dictator or president, regular man or not, that should put respect in anyone. but couple that with a very imperialist government for the last 25 or 30 years, that's extremely gung ho about preemtive strikes with faulty evidence, or funding terrorists to fight our enemies, well my friend, then you have something to truly fear. I leave you with two of my favorite quotes: It is unwise to be too sure of one's own wisdom. It is healthy to be reminded that the strongest might weaken and the wisest might err. Mahatma Gandhi But thus do I counsel you, my friends: distrust all in whom the impulse to punish is powerful! Friedrich Nietzsche, Also Sprach Zarathustra, Chapter 29 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ParanoiA Posted October 12, 2006 Share Posted October 12, 2006 i am well aware that preemptive strikes have been in history since the beginning of civilization. but that doesn't make it the right thing to do. It doesn't make it the wrong thing to do either. The particulars of the situation determine if it's the right thing to do or not. By right or wrong, I mean if it achieves the ends we're after or not. I think your domination and predator thing is exactly what causes fear in others, which leads to them becoming "paranoid" thinking we are always looking for a chance to get them. A real predator is always looking for ways to dominate and rule the weak. I think we can be secure and powerful without inflicting fear and hatred in others. That's really sweet and all, but not realistic. In a globe of predators, inflicting fear in others is necessary. What if we didn't inflict fear in the soviet union during the 80's? What if they didn't inflict fear in us? It was that fear that generated respect, that generated cooperation - which kept us from acting out. Hatred wasn't generated at all. Unless you consider hatred for our political system prior to any engagements as an infliction by the US. So, here, inflicting fear may have saved millions of lives and global catastrophy. You're attempting to apply civilized cooperative behavior to an essentially uncivilized platform. Within our borders, we cooperate and civilize in order to get along and live our lives. Between our borders, we are still at odds, competing for land, resources, etc. It would be nice to turn off all that competitive, predatory programming that got mankind to this point, but we can't and we're a long way from evolution fixing it as well. Which leads me to believe, perhaps we shouldn't. Perhaps this competitive behavior is still necessary. NK is a perfect example of a crazy man full of paranoia who thinks the U.S. is out to get him. did we cause that? no we didn't but we shouldn't add fuel to his insane fire. Sure we caused that. And it's true. We are out to get him. And Ahmedinejad as well. Sucks that he's so far along with Nukes himself. But we would launch an attack in a heartbeat if wasn't for the rest of the world's resistance and possible nuclear retaliation upon an innocent party - like south korea. We've botched the situation there. Think about it, we have thousands of Nukes, Big world ending nukes, dictator or president, regular man or not, that should put respect in anyone. but couple that with a very imperialist government for the last 25 or 30 years, that's extremely gung ho about preemtive strikes with faulty evidence, or funding terrorists to fight our enemies, well my friend, then you have something to truly fear. Just the last 25 or 30 years? Please. We've been imperialist since the beginning. Just about every country is when it comes down to it. We've just done it with money before. Iraq isn't imperialism. At least not yet. When it becomes a state in the union, then we'll call it imperialism. And I hope we stay gung-ho about preemptive strikes and get rid of all of the other threats before all of these thugs get nuclear and one of them decides to sacrifice their country in the name of "god" and launch a full scale attack on us, or wipe Israel off the map. Remember, these people we're after aren't as fuzzy and passive as you are. In fact, they're downright morbid and far more predatory than the american government. When they rule, they oppress. When we rule, we liberate. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
john5746 Posted October 12, 2006 Share Posted October 12, 2006 Remember, these people we're after aren't as fuzzy and passive as you are. In fact, they're downright morbid and far more predatory than the american government. When they rule, they oppress. When we rule, we liberate. Give them liberty or give them death!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ParanoiA Posted October 12, 2006 Share Posted October 12, 2006 Give them liberty or give them death!! Yeah...whether they asked for it or not! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Saryctos Posted October 14, 2006 Share Posted October 14, 2006 I wish someone would use nulear force against something already, sheesh. Nothing puts people in their place like watching millions disapear over night...worked with Japan =P Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ecoli Posted October 14, 2006 Share Posted October 14, 2006 I wish someone would use nulear force against something already, sheesh. Nothing puts people in their place like watching millions disapear over night...worked with Japan =P uhh... that's not funny, dude. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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