New Middle Eastern War

[5614]

Just to post a few links:

 

150 missiles fell on Israel yesterday (Saturday 22nd):

http://www.israelnationalnews.com/news.php3?id=108060

The BBC seems to have failed to mention that one.

 

10 explosions killed 2 in Haifa, just after the French Foreign Minister left the city (Sunday 23rd):

http://www.israelnationalnews.com/news.php3?id=108103

 

Israeli forces have occupied a small village in southern Lebanon. "Security forces in the area report they found scores of Katyusha shells, missile storage rooms and missile-launchers concealed in the village's mosque." (Sunday 23rd):

http://www.israelnationalnews.com/news.php3?id=108063

 

and the same story (Israeli forces have taken a Lebanese village) which also says Syria is ready to have talks with the USA about solving the crisis:

http://www.sky.com/skynews/article/0,,30200-13534350,00.html

 

Israel has agreed to deploying a multi-national force in Lebanon (Sunday 23rd):

http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/741704.html

 

Lebanese Foreign Minister: Abducted soldiers in 'good health' (Sunday 23rd):

http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/741445.html

 

And finally; in a Sky poll of over 1,000,000 (1 million) people 86.95% say that Israel's attack on Lebanon is justified:

http://www.sky.com/skynews/polls/displayresults/1,,91153-1003515-1,00.html

[Pangloss]

What I want to know is WTF is Lebanon's Foreign Minister doing reporting on the health of Israeli soldiers captured by Hezbollah.

[Skye]

IIRC the Foreign Minister is one of those members of the government endorsed by Hezbollah, so maybe he has some insider info.

[Pangloss]

Thus demonstrating exactly why this is happening. (sigh)

[Pangloss]

Interesting article from the Associated Press about how the US is working with Egypt and Saudi Arabia to try to convince Syria to bring pressure to bear on Hezbollah to stop the fighting. It's a clever approach, because Egypt has strong political influence in the region, and of course Saudi Arabia has a lot of money. The bargaining chips the US brings to the table in this (appropriately) Syriana-like tale are foreign aid, and of course the ever-popular "improved trade relations".

 

While in some ways it may seem contradictory for Islamic states to oppose a nation that's fighting Israel, they do have some motivation here. As I've mentioned before in this thread, the real player here is not Lebanon, but Iran. As this article mentions, Iran is trying to become the predominent "power broker" for the region, and that is very much an effort that Egypt and Saudi Arabia would like to interrupt.

 

So while this is a task these two nations would happily perform anyway (and in fact, as the article states, this is entirely Egypt's idea), as is usually the case in modern world politics, the Elephant in the Room will also likely have to give something to Egypt and Saudi Arabia in exchange for their "largess", and that something will likely be less pressure on those countries to produce internal democratic reforms. Translation: Arab women will have to wait a bit longer for those driver's licenses.

 

Unmentioned in the article, but still clearly apparent, is the long-standing enmity between Saudi Arabia and Iran, which predates even the Islamic revolution and has a lot to do with each country's concept of how best to sell oil.

 

Expect to hear more about this in the coming week.

 

http://seattlepi.nwsource.com/national/1107AP_Mideast_Fighting_Arab_End_Game.html

[5614]

I wish Egypt and Saudi Arabia the best of luck.

 

California Governor Arnold Schwarzenegger joined a crowd of 10,000 at a pro-Israel rally Sunday organized by the Jewish Federation Council of Los Angeles:

http://www.jpost.com/servlet/Satellite?c=JPArticle&cid=1153291983753&pagename=JPost%2FJPArticle%2FShowFull

 

And a similar rally in the UK had about 7,500 people, it was arranged at very short notice.

 

90 rockets fell on Israel on Sunday:

http://www.jpost.com/servlet/Satellite?cid=1153291978356&pagename=JPost%2FJPArticle%2FShowFull

Hezbollah left Israel in peace all Monday morning, but have now resumed attacks in the afternoon.

[mr d]

hello

 

a bit of deja vu for me, went a little like this.

as mentioned by me above a few decades past lebanon was a fairly pieceful place without too

 

large of a military. 'hey we're the guys who handle the money for the rest of the area. why

 

would anyone want to destroy us, you'd you'd only loose your ability to make a profit.' so no

 

real reason for a big military.

the rise of islamic fundimentalism and sectarian differences (plus feelings christian and

 

jewish minorities were hording the wealth, being they were more exceptable partners to

 

westerners) lead northern sunnis and southern shi'ites to begin a little civil war, and with no

 

real army in the country and conflicted loyalties amoung officers and enlisted the fun begins.

as fighting lessens between lebanese factions embolden southern groups decided to lauch a few

 

missles isreals way. isreal responds by invading southern lebanon to secure the northern

 

frontier. syria which was thought to be fueling the lebanese civil war fearing a strong lebanon,

 

and looking to redirect the fighters attention invade eastern lebanon. of course they claim to

 

be there to help protect their muslim brothers from isreali aggression. plus maybe grab a little

 

land along their western border.

a deal is finally brokered to end the civil war. isreal is asked to leave, they say no. syria

 

is asked to leave, they say no. islamic militants begin a war of attrition agains isreali

 

forces, later to form basis for hezbollah. manage to kill isreali soldiers with bombs and

 

snipers as they patrol the area (sound familiar?). enough so that the isreali people begin

 

protesting to bring the troups home. as at the time many voiced the opinion 'if muslims wish to

 

fight a civil war and kill each other so much the better.' isreal conducts a scorched earth

 

withdraw destroying infrastructure, towns, and forrest areas in order to create a barren

 

wasteland to buffer their northern border. one reason the people of the region support

 

hezbollah.

yes small guerilla bands manage to force the withdrawl of a much better armed and equiped

 

military force (hmm.. again sound vaguely familiar.)

the lebanese goverment asks again for syria to leave, but it wants to stay in case isreal

 

should decided to invade again. for without and army who can protect them. oddly though they

 

never actually engaged the isreali defense force in a drive to push them out.

recently the lebanese primeminister finally gets the united nations to help force the syrians

 

out. lebanon sets about rebuilding itself. the primeminister is prompty assignated with what

 

many believe is syrian help. and low and behold a rearmed hezbollah shows up and starts lobbing

 

rockets into isreal.

these things i remember along with christian protestors in the u.s. screamed how the end of the

 

world was near, and the river jordan would soon run as blood. i think these people are still

 

screaming this not sure if they ever stopped.

 

so what's it all mean. that in the end isreal will do what it think's best for isreal, syria

 

for syria, the islamic fighters will not be destroyed by a limited isreali incursion. nor can

 

isreal launch a full scale prolonged invasion (lacks manpower and resources needed to do so, and

 

the money needed to sustain such an operation).

problems: iran, may or may not be looking for a large scale war. large wars require lots of

 

money and resources, see what the u.s. and coaltion have to spend daily. nor does it have direct

 

access to isreal. for such and attack it would have to either invade its way across the middle

 

east to reach isreal, or somehow fly in massive amount of men and supplies into lebanon which it

 

can not afford, or do with out detection.

some concern over possible iranian nuclear threat, but looks as some suggest iran may be using

 

conflict to test their burgeoning weapon developement programs (remember their new 200 mph

 

torpedo). the missle used to hit the isreal ship required a functioning guidence system unlike

 

the rockets hezbollah fires at isreal everyday. they don't have the money or trained personel to

 

accomplish that. also though denied by isreal most western sources believe an isreali f16 was

 

shot down. again hezbollah rockets can not accomplish that. soviet sams or u.s. built stingers

 

needed (u.s. gave stingers to taliban when they were fighting the soviet union back when, thanks

 

to the c.i.a.. might be some backwards engineering going on).

 

so unforunately i think in the end all sides stomp about destroying and killing and

 

accomplishing nothing. then stop and take time to rearm and do it again. the worst of it is

 

with each pause the means for destroying and killing gets that much improved. and the biggest

 

looser might be the u.s.. most euopean nations are against u.s. policy of support for the

 

isreali operation, and becoming more and more anti american in general. plus many more muslims

 

are viewing the u.s more and more as having no concern for their plight, consequently less

 

co-operation from islamic countries against terrorism. perhaps more countri

[Pangloss]

Mr D,

 

It looks like you tried to paste some text from Notepad into the editor. That can be problematic sometimes due to the nature of line wrapping and carriage returns. It looks like it was also trimmed at the end.

 

I'm not sure exactly what happened there, but I recommend that you preview your posts before submitting them until you figure it out.

[walrusman]

Mr D - it would be nice to see that post finished out.

 

From a space alien's point of view it always seems like man is just killing man for no good reason and blah blah blah. But when you're one of the interested parties, there's a method to the madness.

 

I see a big problem with "peace keepers" and I blame them alot for this ongoing issue. Too many people are hung up on stopping the violence, to the point that they short change any real resolution. Without that, they just stay peaceful long enough to get overly pissed and start up again.

 

Sometimes I wish this whole middle east thing would just go full scale and get all of this crap out of everybody's system - war, rape and pillage until there is a clear winner. Count the dead and update the history books and move on.

[5614]

mr d, mr d, why can't you just post in normal paragraphs so I can easily read it. Then I will be more than happy to (in fact I promise to!) respond to it.

[mr d]

hello

 

sorry about how that message showed. pangloss is right was cut in from a notepad. it's the text editor i have available. so no formatter, or spell checker, the capitol thing is rebellion against conformity.

 

i use a work station for posting and have limited access time, no internet at home - and i like it that way (find i'm out and about more since i closed my account. life is far more enjoyble without it.)

 

so if making a longer post i have to type it up on notepad first then quickly go up and post it.

 

hey could try to get work to allow installation of m.s.word, but somehow my explaination of need might not meet requirements. 'uh... hey could you have i.t. install word on my machine so i can write better posts for the science forum i visit. oh... when am i doing that..uh. during working hours.'

 

dam bloody capitalists.

 

shall endeavor to at least form better paragraphs, hard since i was taught to write by a blindman who did not consider them overly important. but i shall try.

 

mr d

[walrusman]

There's a clip on foxnews.com of a Rabbi against Zionism and he brings up some good points. I have been of the opinion that Israel should move, but I never considered it shouldn't even exist.

[Tetrahedrite]

This is quite disturbing. If it is true that UN personnel have been purposely targeted, then surely this constitutes a war crime.

 

UN Secretary General Kofi Annan has called upon the Israeli government to launch an investigation into an air strike that killed as many as four UN peacekeepers in southern Lebanon on Tuesday.

 

"I am shocked and deeply distressed by the apparently deliberate targeting by Israeli Defence Forces of a UN observer post in southern Lebanon that has killed two UN military observers, with two more feared dead," Annan said from Rome.

 

Annan said the attack took place "despite personal assurances given to me by Prime Minister Ehud Olmert that UN positions would be spared Israeli fire."

 

He also said there were 14 other incidents of firing close to this position from the Israeli side Tuesday afternoon.

 

"The firing continued even during the rescue operation," he said.

Source

 

I heard in radio reports this morning that the compound was clearly marked and that the Israeli army had been made aware several times that the UN personnel were at that particular location.

I have a feeling that Israel may come under more pressure now from the international community (ex the USA) to stop the attacks.

[walrusman]

I heard in radio reports this morning that the compound was clearly marked and that the Israeli army had been made aware several times that the UN personnel were at that particular location.

 

This couldn't come at a worse time. I'm having a hard time believing they'd do that on purpose. Are they really that sore at the UN?

[ecoli]

This couldn't come at a worse time. I'm having a hard time believing they'd do that on purpose. Are they really that sore at the UN?

 

The Israeli government has yet to comment on the attack, however, I heard on the radio, that some ISraeli ambassador has suggested that the attack was actually made by Hezbollah and not the IDF. We shall see how that works out, though.

 

There's a clip on foxnews.com of a Rabbi against Zionism and he brings up some good points. I have been of the opinion that Israel should move, but I never considered it shouldn't even exist.

 

There are a few of those guys out there. They are not in the majority, and I don't think their opinions count for very much. A few reasons:

 

These Jews are VERY condescending, many of them believing that the rest of the Jews are not true Jews at all. They are quite puritannical in their adherance to the Torah, in my opinion, to an unhealthy level.

 

These people don't think there should be a state of Israel until the Messiah comes, and then, to make sure that the boarder os Israel go from the Nile to the Euphrates river, as suggested in the Bible.

 

Many of these people don't care about, or don't realize, that a need for a Jewish homeland exists.

 

As for moving Israel or 'disbanding it' that simply is not an option. Where would you put the 6,000,000+ Jews? Who would take them?

[ecoli]

didn't see this article until right now: http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/742561.html

 

It includes Israeli comments about the bomb... though not very full or satisfactory.

[walrusman]

These Jews are VERY condescending, many of them believing that the rest of the Jews are not true Jews at all. They are quite puritannical in their adherance to the Torah, in my opinion, to an unhealthy level.

 

Yeah, he was an Orthodox Jew. And I definitely got that "unhealthy" vibe from him. I just wasn't sure how many people have considered this point of view.

 

As for moving Israel or 'disbanding it' that simply is not an option. Where would you put the 6,000,000+ Jews? Who would take them?

 

I would give them Texas. After all of this grief in the middle east, I don't think they'd have any problem keeping the mexicans out.

 

Seriously though, moving Israel, or at least the people is the most pragmatic solution when you consider the big picture. With who knows how much of the big picture is still left unseen. This killing will just go on and on, for centuries. How do we move 6 million people? I don't know..how do you bury them? I'd rather worry about how to move them.

 

I know it's like giving in to the Arab world, especially the terrorists - but it's insane to live there. Surrounded by millions, if not billions of people who basically want you dead. There's a reason why rich white people don't live in the bronx.

 

It's only a numbers thing to me, not a religious attachment. I can't really appreciate their spirituality but I can appreciate the historical value of Jerusalem. And if they're killing people over Zionism, then doesn't that mean they're murdering per their god also? I'm not sure how intermingled the concept of Zion and god is...

[ecoli]

I would give them Texas. After all of this grief in the middle east, I don't think they'd have any problem keeping the mexicans out.

yeah, a giant fence would take care of the problem.

 

Seriously though, moving Israel, or at least the people is the most pragmatic solution when you consider the big picture. With who knows how much of the big picture is still left unseen. This killing will just go on and on, for centuries. How do we move 6 million people? I don't know..how do you bury them? I'd rather worry about how to move them.

Are you talking about moving the entire nation or just encorporating the people into a new nation? Either option doesn't sound practical.

 

I know it's like giving in to the Arab world, especially the terrorists - but it's insane to live there. Surrounded by millions, if not billions of people who basically want you dead. There's a reason why rich white people don't live in the bronx.

 

And yet, Harlem (another notorious 'ghetto') is experiance an influx of rich, white Americans.

 

And besides, if you give someone an inch, they'll take a yard. IF you move Israel, the next thing you know, Islamic Jihadists will have a called an all out war on the western world... they don't really like the West any more then Israel.

 

What would you think of appeasement then? That policy didn't work against Hitler in the 30's, and it's not going to work now. (ech... damn Godwin's law)

 

It's only a numbers thing to me, not a religious attachment. I can't really appreciate their spirituality but I can appreciate the historical value of Jerusalem. And if they're killing people over Zionism, then doesn't that mean they're murdering per their god also? I'm not sure how intermingled the concept of Zion and god is...

 

Zionism and God aren't terribly intermingled. So-called Secular Judiasm is a HUGE movement. People call themselves Jewish, but are only so in tradition and culture, and are staunch atheists. They are no less zionists.

 

But still, I feel at this point, Israel is too enmeshed in the land to warrant a move to any where.

 

In fact, I remember that the zionists were actually offered a piece of land in africa (a small piece of Liberia?) in 1948. They said 'thanks but no thanks.' Palestine and the middle east already had a strong Jewish presence before the creation of the state, add the historical and religious significance, and it's no surprize that's where they'd make their home.

[walrusman]

And besides, if you give someone an inch, they'll take a yard. IF you move Israel, the next thing you know, Islamic Jihadists will have a called an all out war on the western world... they don't really like the West any more then Israel.

 

Well, to me, this is where we would have the obvious high moral ground and I never really thought it would stop that aspect of terrorism in this conflict anyway. I'm just talking about the Israel - Palestinian thing. From what I understand, Hezbollah is made up of mainly Palestinians.

 

Nothing is going to stop this hatred of the west except for our conversion to Islam. I'd rather be dead.

 

And like I said, it's just a numbers crunch. I'm not into appeasment, but I'm not sorry if it looks that way either. I'm just picking the smaller, out of place population and suggesting they move to their kind of neighborhood - for their own sake.

 

It wouldn't bother me at all except that we keep supporting them in this Sisyphus effort. I'm all for fighting for land and "might is right", but not with these odds.

 

All that silly stuff said, none of it matters because it would never be considered in any serious level. So I guess we'll just keep burying people...

[ecoli]

It wouldn't bother me at all except that we keep supporting them in this Sisyphus effort. I'm all for fighting for land and "might is right"' date=' but not with these odds. [/quote']

What odds are that?

[CPL.Luke]

I honestly think that if there wasn't a unifying threat like israel in the middle east then most of the islamic jihadists would turn on eachother over there own religious differences. As recent events in Iraq have shown the internal differences among radical islamists are a much greater threat to them than a benevolent force such as the US occupation force.

[walrusman]

I honestly think that if there wasn't a unifying threat like israel in the middle east then most of the islamic jihadists would turn on eachother over there own religious differences. As recent events in Iraq have shown the internal differences among radical islamists are a much greater threat to them than a benevolent force such as the US occupation force.

 

If that's true, then that would awesome to watch them kill each other. With satellites and state of the art media we could make a reality show out of it. Death TV or something. They should appreciate that since they're so obsessed with death.

[abskebabs]

If that's true, then that would awesome to watch them kill each other. With satellites and state of the art media we could make a reality show out of it. Death TV or something. They should appreciate that since they're so obsessed with death.

The problem is the militants dont usually fight each other, they just kill innocent bystanders from other communities most of the time. In the name of religion...

[gcol]

In the name of religion...

 

Yes, a self-professed "true believer" is a dangerous animal. Atrue believer with gun in hand is a murderous maniac of the worst kind, and utterly implacable.

 

Interesting though how Hezbullah has refined the art of guerilla war to new levels of effectiveness against traditional forces, especially by screening its combatants with civilians to play the attrocity card.

[ecoli]

Interesting though how Hezbullah has refined the art of guerilla war to new levels of effectiveness against traditional forces, especially by screening its combatants with civilians to play the attrocity card.

 

Terrorists have been doing this for years in the region. They use children as sheilds, and stay in the background. When photographers take a snapshot, all you see is Israel tanks confronting Palestinian children. yYou don't see the truth.