IMI Posted August 26, 2003 Share Posted August 26, 2003 Let me continue...... There are certainly people who are homosexual because of trauma. They may or may not be the majority but they certainly exist. I guess "choice" would not be the correct term to explain why these people migrate towards this lifestyle as they may not have any more of a conscious "choice" than does someone with a vomeronasal abnormality. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IMI Posted August 26, 2003 Share Posted August 26, 2003 Dudde said in post #50 :tee hee hee point taken and apology offered IMI that just goes to show, never don't sleep and write an essay while looking at scienceforums;) survival of species used to be the be-all end-all, I believe that has shifted slightly today into which most people say survival of the "self" Apology accepted and I offer one as well. You make a good point with the "survival of self". It does certainly seem as though we have migrated that way. I wonder if that isn't the evolution of the "survival of species" factor being that population is actually growing dangerously large. Population has actually replaced nuclear weapons as the greatest threat to the planet. Maybe the shift to "survival of self" is a way, in concert with other things, of curtailing population growth. Nature seems to have many ways of righting things that get out of balance. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sayonara Posted August 26, 2003 Share Posted August 26, 2003 I was pretty much going to say that ^ in response to this: IMI said in post #48 :Context. I can say that homosexuality is unnatural, with regards to procreation, while saying it is a natural behavior for someone who is pre-disposed based on congenital defect. You are correct, procreation is not the be-all end-all of adaptive drives. Survival of species is. Procreation is a major facet of that though. So literal While you may argue that procreation is a massive facet of species survival, if you are considering a case where population is massively above the K-value for that species and homosexuality rates increase, then obviously you are looking at a paradigm shift. Hence, the definition of 'natural' becomes context sensitive. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
john5746 Posted July 25, 2004 Share Posted July 25, 2004 If you think of primitive man in a group setting, you can see where homosexuality may give a group a better chance of success. The Alpha-male wants to have all the women and drive all competition away. The Alpha-female also wants to dominate, but they both need others to survive. By having some homosexuals, a group could have more males to defend and hunt and more females to take care of children and forage with less internal sexual conflict. My guess is the x-chromosone would pass this trait. Maybe religious belief came about the same way. While there is no biological benefit for someone to be wasting their time with these beliefs, it does keep groups together. Homosexuality and religion, providing the same function: isn't that ironic? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
admiral_ju00 Posted July 25, 2004 Share Posted July 25, 2004 If you think of primitive man in a group setting.......The Alpha-male ..... & The Alpha-female.... need others to survive. No they don't. They need each other to reproduce, but not necessarily for survival. In a Hunter-Gatherer society, females are the ones who provide the most food, either at gathering fruits or salvaging some animals leftovers which was killed some kind of an animal:eg: lionesses(sp?) unfinished meal. Male hunters are and were not always successful. My guess is the x-chromosone would pass this trait. Possibly. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NavajoEverclear Posted July 25, 2004 Share Posted July 25, 2004 obviously babies and children aren't able to comprehend the notion of sexuality. i remember my childhood (my memories start about age 3), and thats not true. Maybe i didn't understand intercourse yet, but i had a concept on sexuality, and had attractions and such. So, is it true to say you are heterosexual by choice? Do you find members of the same sex attractive, but deliberately choose to have sex only with members of the opposite sex? Yes it is a choice, it's a choice of natures. It comes natural, and you'd have to do a lot of work to change your nature, but why would you want to? Thats why it never happens. I say this with a little bit of evidence-- myself. I know if i wanted to be i could be homosexual. In the name of science I'll admit i had one instance of homosexual curiosity/attraction in my early adolescence. But i am far more attracted to females, and now that that confusion is over I have no desire to go back to it. So maybe that means i'm bisexual naturally and heterosexual by choice, but i don't believe that. I believe it's all psychological, and evolutionary. To put it ungracefully we all have evolved the drive to hump, if our ancesters hadn't humped, we wouldn't be there. Sometimes the hump drive gets its target confused when it needs to express itself but the correct medium is not in access. I think this enforced in watching animal behavior. My dog finds a stuffed animal to hump whenever she's in heat. That does not mean my dog was born stuffedanimalo-sexual. She's rarely had contact with a mateable partner, so when hormones activate her hump program, she runs it on whatever is available. So that's why animals show homosexual behavior. Is there any case of an animal that will ONLY try to mate with its own sex? Maybe noone has ever followed an animal to find out. Otherwise, INSTANCES where the animal resorts to humping another that is procreatively incompadible, does not make it naturally homosexual. It is the natural, normally heterosexual, drive to hump working with whatever it has. how do you know exactly what makes people homosexual? have you ever spoken with someone like that and actually asked them? I doubt it, judging by the biased and stupid way you're talking about this. Well I have, and the person I was speaking with couldn't exactly tell me why he found himself attracted to men, and not women, but he was, and I asked that SAME STUPID QUESTION if there was something that happened to him earlier in life to change himhe said "no, I've been this way pretty much all my life, before I even had a chance to like girls" I've admitted before there different cases of homosexuality, with different causes, therefore different levels. I still think it's psychological. How do you explain my condition? And i have one other story to aid my point. I have a friend who was getting tired of her boyfriend, she took a break from him and had a homosexual relationship with a girl who has been lesbian since 9th grade. The relationship only lasted a few weeks cause the lesbian (sorry that sounds disrespectful, but i promise its not, the lesbian is also a friend of mine) graduated highschool and went to massage school in arizona. The girl made up with her boyfriend (who still loved her) and they got back together. Is she bisexual? For you who say its inborn, is there a seperate gene for bisexuality, or is it a waterdown version of the gay gene? It seems all really inconsitant. In the name of science i'll confess even more-- that if i look back, i could justify homosexuality as being natural with several cases of attraction, that you could say were suppressed by cultural pressure. But since i haven't chosen that, i don't look back at that, i'm just saying, i could, and then you'd say i was born to be gay, but i just told you that for me its a choice. Just to end, incase you dont know me, i am in no way anti-gay. If the drive is to strong for the possibility of making a rational effort to reverse, i don't think God will condemn you. But i am saying that its not as clear-cut as either being gay or being straight. Maybe some cases its less of a choice, but in many, maybe most cases, i think it is. My evidence--- my own experience. How do you argue that? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NavajoEverclear Posted July 25, 2004 Share Posted July 25, 2004 And if you understand psychology, you know that one can even be confused about what is or isn't their choice. Thus the misunderstanding that if someone SAYS they had no choice, does not mean it couldn't have been different. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
admiral_ju00 Posted July 25, 2004 Share Posted July 25, 2004 In the name of science i'll confess even more-- that if i look back' date=' i could justify homosexuality as being natural with several cases of attraction, that you could say were suppressed by cultural pressure. [/quote'] Uhm, there Is a difference when you(guy) look at another guy and think something like: "Wow, this guy is Handsome. I wish I could look more like him", etc. VS "Wow, this guy is Handsome. I wish I could do him". But I agree with much of what you said in this post. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kether Posted July 25, 2004 Share Posted July 25, 2004 So that's why animals show homosexual behavior. Is there any case of an animal that will ONLY try to mate with its own sex? Maybe noone has ever followed an animal to find out. Otherwise, INSTANCES where the animal resorts to humping another that is procreatively incompadible, does not make it naturally homosexual. It is the natural, normally heterosexual, drive to hump working with whatever it has. Yes experiments have been carried out.. In one instance (of many) aprox 10 female sheep were lined up in pens with one ram amongst them. All had their rear ends sticking out for another ram to investigate Consistently the ram chose to mount the other ram and ignore the females. (some were in season and some were not) Positions of the sheep were changed in the pens and the same result occured (gay Ram) Also the ram recieving the attention of the gay ram was removed and replaced with other rams at different intervals. etc etc.. Gayness is rife in the animal world. Not simply because its the next best thing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Jaeke Inopre Posted July 27, 2004 Share Posted July 27, 2004 The problem with this current area of debate is that people believe only one way can be correct. My opinion on the matter is the more mixed one, that is a product of my study of Criminology. Homosexuals are affected by the things that have happened to them in the past(behaviorialism, I believe is the term. If it's not, correct me.), but they still have free will. They can decide to let their past experiences affect them, or give into them. In which case a number of theories can be put into question or proposed. You could say that they're incapable of admitting their baser instincts because of how it would be treated by society. Is that because it is closer to shame, or anger? We hide certain emotions because of how they'd be treated...feelings for your preacher, or anger at your boss. Is it wrong or right? Situations change, and right and wrong change as well. My personal feelings on the subject, are that whereas homosexuality is not neccessarily wrong...it is a signal that there is a deeper problem. Parallel it to antisocial behavior and you can see what I mean. My personal experience, while not as worthy as my logic...has agreed with what you've said. Gay people usually suffer in some way sexually or emotionally in relationships(not always romantic relationships), and reflect that on their sexuality. A friend who was never close to his father is attracted to men who act fatherly and can protect him, in the same way I am attracted to women who parallel my mother due to my seperation anxiety. In both of our cases, this shows that there are deeper problems which must be examined. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kether Posted July 27, 2004 Share Posted July 27, 2004 The problem with this current area of debate is that people believe only one way can be correct. My opinion on the matter is the more mixed one' date=' that is a product of my study of Criminology.Homosexuals are affected by the things that have happened to them in the past(behaviorialism, I believe is the term. If it's not, correct me.), but they still have free will. They can decide to let their past experiences affect them, or give into them. In which case a number of theories can be put into question or proposed. You could say that they're incapable of admitting their baser instincts because of how it would be treated by society. Is that because it is closer to shame, or anger? We hide certain emotions because of how they'd be treated...feelings for your preacher, or anger at your boss. Is it wrong or right? Situations change, and right and wrong change as well. My personal feelings on the subject, are that whereas homosexuality is not neccessarily wrong...it is a signal that there is a deeper problem. Parallel it to antisocial behavior and you can see what I mean. My personal experience, while not as worthy as my logic...has agreed with what you've said. Gay people usually suffer in some way sexually or emotionally in relationships(not always romantic relationships), and reflect that on their sexuality. A friend who was never close to his father is attracted to men who act fatherly and can protect him, in the same way I am attracted to women who parallel my mother due to my seperation anxiety. In both of our cases, this shows that there are deeper problems which must be examined.[/quote'] "Look Toto were not in Kansas anymore" The PROBLEM is nothing is black and white unless your like a dog who views the world as such.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NavajoEverclear Posted July 27, 2004 Share Posted July 27, 2004 Parallel it to antisocial behavior and you can see what I mean. My personal experience' date=' while not as worthy as my logic...has agreed with what you've said. Gay people usually suffer in some way sexually or emotionally in relationships(not always romantic relationships), and reflect that on their sexuality. A friend who was never close to his father is attracted to men who act fatherly and can protect him, in the same way I am attracted to women who parallel my mother due to my seperation anxiety. In both of our cases, this shows that there are deeper problems which must be examined.[/quote'] Parallel to anitsocial behaivior? that seems to be quite the opposite in many cases. This may be stereotypical, but gay people are especially popular with females. Often leaves me wondering if there is a way to act gay, for the benefits of heightened female companionship--- but maintain straightness to reap romantic rewards. It seems that your opinion is less in between the two extremes than you think. (just an observation). Most of the time its right near impossible to identify any abuse that caused a person to be homosexual. I don't completely understand what your study in Criminology is, does it relate with your career, and what exactly is it? Anyhow, my guess would be is that if you are viewing them from a criminal perspective, you've probably only encountered examples resulting from extreme cases, involving abuse. Not to mention that the abuse may have nothing to do with sexual preference----- there are a lot of straight sex-offenders, often they are offenders and result of personal abuse, but that abuse may not have anything to do with their sexual preference (in some cases i'd say it does, but not all cases, don't over-generalize)--- tho i'm not sure if that relates to what your talking about. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LucidDreamer Posted July 27, 2004 Share Posted July 27, 2004 Yes experiments have been carried out.. In one instance (of many) aprox 10 female sheep were lined up in pens with one ram amongst them. All had their rear ends sticking out for another ram to investigate Consistently the ram chose to mount the other ram and ignore the females. Gayness is rife in the animal world. Not simply because its the next best thing. I bet that ram needed alot of therapy after that. I think some people are born with different degrees of a natural disposition to being gay. Whether they become gay or not is dependent on some environmental factors. Look at prisons. True, some people are forced, but many choose to engage in homosexuality while they are in prison and then go back to being strait once they get out. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kether Posted July 27, 2004 Share Posted July 27, 2004 >I bet that ram needed alot of therapy after that. "Wam bam thankyou Ram" >Whether they become gay or not is dependent on some environmental factors. So if the world suddenly became void of females, it could perhaps occur that every male would to a greater or lesser degree seek homosexuality? (and vice versa of course) Hopefully for both sexes this will not ever happen. Creation is not limited to male and female union (A child being created) Art, music,literature etc are creations often (though not only) the work of Gay(happy) people. Some very Good and beautiful creations. Is war, violence, destruction, terrorism etc RIGHT? These things are not inherent in HAPPY people. Yes the world needs love. Yes because we die we also need to procreate. Bertolt Brecht wrote this lyric that I like. "Vices have their point once you see it as such. Stick to TWO for ONE will be to much" I am Borg..Part of the collective.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sayonara Posted July 27, 2004 Share Posted July 27, 2004 A friend who was never close to his father is attracted to men who act fatherly and can protect him' date=' in the same way I am attracted to women who parallel my mother due to my seperation anxiety. In both of our cases, this shows that there are deeper problems which must be examined.[/quote'] Why is it that the former case is a sign of deeper problems, but the latter case is not? Either I missed something major, or that is Special Pleading. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kether Posted July 28, 2004 Share Posted July 28, 2004 [quote=This may be stereotypical, but gay people are especially popular with females. Often leaves me wondering if there is a way to act gay, for the benefits of heightened female companionship--- but maintain straightness to reap romantic rewards. I myself have acted "gay" most of my life. I was never concious of this. It, what ever it may be was/is totaly natural. I never used "It" as a tool of deception.. However your observation that "Gayness" proves to be an effective magnet in the "flesh market" Holds some weight. I have and still have an effortless ability to attract both sexes. All of my adult life has been in pursuit of the "Man Women" thing only. (although I except flattery and dish it out as often as I can be bothered) A paradox occurs though often in long term relationships. (which I have had a few) I find myself drawn to trying to achieve the hetro stereotype and become deeply depressed in the process. This of course has led to relationship breakdown. Do women realy want a "Peter Parker" or do they prefer the "WEB weaver" Damned if I know and I have spun a few in my time.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest SelfishJenny Posted July 28, 2004 Share Posted July 28, 2004 i could just pictureit, i open the link, some crazy shit comes out on the screen and then the big VP walks in and sees it. Being an employer myself I must say you shouldnt worry. After seeing your spelling/views and general ness of you, they wouldnt be surprised at anything you did on yr computer. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Europa Posted August 1, 2004 Share Posted August 1, 2004 Homosexuality is, based on my research, congenital, at least in some cases. Consider hermaphroditism where individual human organisms are born with both male and female sexual organs and other sexual characteristics as well that are both male and female. These individuals may also be psychologically homosexual or bi-sexual. Surely there was no traumatic event in their lives that suddently caused a woman to grow a penis or a man to grow breasts and a vagina. It's a congenital problem. So by extrapolation, I believe homosexuality is congenital as well. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
admiral_ju00 Posted August 1, 2004 Share Posted August 1, 2004 An interesting article that I thought is relevant here: http://edition.cnn.com/2004/TECH/science/07/29/science.courtship.reut/index.html Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kether Posted August 4, 2004 Share Posted August 4, 2004 An interesting article that I thought is relevant here: http://edition.cnn.com/2004/TECH/science/07/29/science.courtship.reut/index.html Please explain to me what relevance there is. What do a fly, sex and homosexuality have in common. FREE speech is welcome on my post.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
john5746 Posted August 5, 2004 Share Posted August 5, 2004 Sexuality, like other functions, probably have a genetic and nurture component. Some people have a tendancy towards homosexuality or bisexuality, which can be triggered or possibly supressed. Fruit flies and other animals are studied for many genetic components. Why not study them for this trait? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
admiral_ju00 Posted August 5, 2004 Share Posted August 5, 2004 Please explain to me what relevance there is. What do a fly' date=' sex and homosexuality have in common. [/quote'] I didn't think that the article itself was that complicated to read and understand. However, read the below err, above post(depending on which way you want to look at it) as it should help. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kether Posted August 5, 2004 Share Posted August 5, 2004 I didn't think that the article itself was that complicated to read and understand. However, read the below err, above post(depending on which way you want to look at it) as it should help. No, you are right. The article is not complicated at all. I wonder though, what song would a fly sing to get the best response? "WORD on a wing" maybe..... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
admiral_ju00 Posted August 5, 2004 Share Posted August 5, 2004 I wonder though' date=' what song would a fly sing to get the best response? "WORD on a wing" maybe..... [/quote'] Oh I don't know, but how about a link however vague it may be, to say 'Genetic predisposition' to someone having gay or straight genes? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Galkam Posted August 25, 2004 Share Posted August 25, 2004 Is there any case of an animal that will ONLY try to mate with its own sex? Yes, some examples. Penguins Rams Japanese macaques Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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