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How can evolution naturally encode sequence with information?


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I think this is a very interesting question the article raises.

First let me say, I approach this debate in a different way. I say there’s a natural interpretation of evolution and there’s an intelligent design interpretation of evolution. I think a natural interpretation of evolution is a fantasy. It’s designed to separate people from God and a natural interpretation of evolution is one of the biggest lies perpetrated on humans.

It’s impossible for a storage medium to encode it’s sequence with information. This is the domain of intelligence.

The sequence of objects or symbols don’t have any meaning unless intelligence gives it meaning. This symbol * and this symbol / isn’t encoded with any information. When intelligence says the sequence */ and /* has start and stop functions for what we will call C comments, then intelligence has encoded these symbols with information.

Again, / and * don’t encode their sequence with information that can be decoded any more than ACTG can in DNA.

The sequence has to be encoded with information by intelligence. How can anything evolve if the sequence isn’t first given meaning and encoded by intelligence?

https://hwimberlyjr.medium.com/how-can-evolution-occur-naturally-36722923c231

We know how intelligence can encode the sequence of a storage medium with information and build the machinery to decode it. This is how we build civilization. How can this occur naturally? What's the origin of information? He gives another example:

My Nephew was over so there’s crayons, a deck of cards and a paper plate on my table.

I can say:

If the deck of cards, crayons and plate are in a sequence from left to right, then meet me at Subway on 4th St.

I can also say, if the plate, deck of cards and crayons are on the table in a sequence from left to right, meet me Downtown at Chipolte on Market St.

My mind, my intelligence has encoded sequence with information. This information can be decoded by another intelligence or if I construct the machinery to decode the information.

The deck of cards, plate and crayons contain none of the information I want to encode. These things are just the medium. It’s the same with DNA. DNA is the medium encoded with information in the sequence of DNA letters ACTG.

This shows that a natural interpretation of evolution isn’t just filled with gaps but it’s not possible. You would have to give a medium the agency of mind and intelligence.

https://hwimberlyjr.medium.com/how-can-evolution-occur-naturally-36722923c231

The article says it would be like a snowflake encoded with information to build a snowman or an igloo and it would be encoded with the information to build machinery that can decode the information on it's sequence.

Again, how is this explained naturally? What were the steps and what medium did this? Did DNA encode it's sequence with information? If so how? When did DNA become like a mind? Did something outside of DNA encode it's sequence with information? If so what was the nature of this medium if it wasn't intelligent? How could it encode the sequence of a storage medium with information? We can even encode DNA with books, papers and DVD's now.

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If I were to try a model for what you seek, I would look for inspiration in ideas like:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/RNA_world.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ribozyme

From the point of view of theoretical physics:

Microscopic information is conserved. So information does not need to be generated. It's there. So-called coarse-grained or macroscopic information is not conserved, however, and the 2nd law of thermodynamics tells us it always decreases in a closed universe. But in open systems subject to external fluxes of energy it is known to give rise to order formation, or clustering of macro-information, if you will. So the 2nd law can "go backwards" locally, so to speak.

If you add a principle of replication (structures appear and disappear, but give rise to structures similar to themselves) but with small differential changes between replications, you've laid the groundwork for explanation of this astonishing illusion of design without a designer.

So we actually already know the answer to,

39 minutes ago, Neoholographic said:

How can anything evolve if the sequence isn’t first given meaning and encoded by intelligence?

 

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1 hour ago, joigus said:

If I were to try a model for what you seek, I would look for inspiration in ideas like:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/RNA_world.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ribozyme

From the point of view of theoretical physics:

Microscopic information is conserved. So information does not need to be generated. It's there. So-called coarse-grained or macroscopic information is not conserved, however, and the 2nd law of thermodynamics tells us it always decreases in a closed universe. But in open systems subject to external fluxes of energy it is known to give rise to order formation, or clustering of macro-information, if you will. So the 2nd law can "go backwards" locally, so to speak.

If you add a principle of replication (structures appear and disappear, but give rise to structures similar to themselves) but with small differential changes between replications, you've laid the groundwork for explanation of this astonishing illusion of design without a designer.

So we actually already know the answer to,

 

I'm not talking about the clustering of information that might give you a pretty mountanside or a snowflake. I'm talking about the encoding of information in the sequence of a storage medium and building the machinery to decode the information encoded in it's sequence. You even have information encoded into non coding sequences that regulate the expression of coding sequences.

This is impossible to occur naturally. That's why I asked to give me the steps.

If I say If if you walk into the house and see 3 pairs of shoes then meet me at Outback on Miles Street at 7 PM but if you see 5 pairs of shoes, meet me at Longhorn on 7th Street at 8:30 PM then I have encoded the sequence of my shoes with information. The shoes are the medium. The shoes don't create or encode themselves with information. It takes someone with intelligence to decode the information or I can build machinery to decode this information. 

This isn't the clustering of macro information to give you the appearence of the design of a snowflake. This is purpose and intelligent design of an encoded/decoding system that will rival any supercomputer in the world to today. It would be like a snowflake encoded with information to build a snowman or igloo and also encoded with information to build the machinery to decode that information as well as information to regulate the expression of coding regions.

A natural interpretation of evolution is a fantasy.

Quote

Information theory terms and ideas applied to DNA are not metaphorical, but in fact quite literal in every way. In other words, the information theory argument for design is not based on analogy at all. It is direct application of mathematics to DNA, which by definition is a code.

shannon_comm_channel.jpg

 

dna_isomorphic.jpg

Quote

 

The book Information Theory, Evolution and the Origin of Life is written by Hubert Yockey, the foremost living specialist in bioinformatics. The publisher is Cambridge University press. Yockey rigorously demonstrates that the coding process in DNA is identical to the coding process and mathematical definitions used in Electrical Engineering. This is not subjective, it is not debatable or even controversial. It is a brute fact:

“Information, transcription, translation, code, redundancy, synonymous, messenger, editing, and proofreading are all appropriate terms in biology. They take their meaning from information theory (Shannon, 1948) and are not synonyms, metaphors, or analogies.” (Hubert P. Yockey, Information Theory, Evolution, and the Origin of Life, Cambridge University Press, 2005)

 

https://evo2.org/dna-atheists/dna-code/

So again, we're talking about the encoding and decoding of information that's stored in the sequence of of a storage medium. 

How did this information naturally get stored on the sequence of a storage medium? How did the information to build machinery to decode this information get encoded on the sequence of a storage medium? How did the information to regulate the sequence of coding regions get encoded on the sequence of a storage medium?

Secondly, evolution is modular. You have all of these parts that evolve that just work togother in complex ways to carry out different tasks. Again, this isn't a gap, this is a gulf. Why would materialism produce any parts that work together?

If I'm designing a modular home, I make design 30 parts that I carry to the home site that just fit together and work together because that's the way it was designed. These parts are designed to work together. If you accept the fantasy that is a natural interpretation of evolution, then these parts evolve and voila! like magic they just work together.

You have molucular machines with 50 different parts that are the right size, shape and come together at the right angles to work together. If I build a machine for a factory, it has all the right parts that's the right shape, size and they come together at the right angles that fit because they were designed that way by intelligence.

Explain how this can occur naturally? I have designed programs that used sequences of symbols and letters to build a program but intelligence that lived before me encoded these sequences with meaning and information. I can go into a factory and look at any machine on the assembly line and see how sequence is encoded with information and intelligence build the machinery to decode this information. A natural interpretation of evolution can't happen.

 

Edited by Neoholographic
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31 minutes ago, Neoholographic said:

The book Information Theory, Evolution and the Origin of Life is written by Hubert Yockey, the foremost living specialist in bioinformatics. The publisher is Cambridge University press. Yockey rigorously demonstrates that the coding process in DNA is identical to the coding process and mathematical definitions used in Electrical Engineering. This is not subjective, it is not debatable or even controversial. It is a brute fact:

(my emphasis)

This sounds ridiculous to me. Eukaryotes throw away a lot of the code (introns) by splicing, and some bits they keep for "creative" combinatorics, because the stop codon has a variable locus depending on the initial codon for translation, after transcription --if I remember correctly. The Duchenne muscular dystrophy gene being one of the closest to having record-breaking code redundancies. Admittedly, a deleterious gene, but eukaryotic splicing generally is very wasteful in terms of codons. Eukaryotes have virtually no limitation in that regard. A "sub-routine" of the transcription process could coincidentally be similar, but the whole architecture? That's basically why a tomato has about as much genetic code as any of us.

Another example is the process of proofreading, in which for some polymerases goes back and forth. Why would you delete code only to rewrite it again?

Nothing like that happens in engineering, AFAIK. So to me, the argument does not even stand to reason. But let the experts speak. I'm always willing to learn from people who know much more than me.

 

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4 hours ago, Neoholographic said:

I think a natural interpretation of evolution is a fantasy.

And yet each new discovery in biology, paleontology and genetics adds more support to the theory of evolution.  Intelligent Design was invented by theists to try to get a form of the biblical story into schools.  ID has failed in the scientific community and in the courts.

Your opinion appears to be wanting.

4 hours ago, Neoholographic said:

It’s designed to separate people from God and a natural interpretation of evolution is one of the biggest lies perpetrated on humans.

This is clearly false.  Evolution is designed to explain observation.  It has nothing to do with religion or God at all.  Some theists freak out about evolution but there are many people and religions that don't see any problem.

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