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Hypothetical sci-fi question about wormholes and elapsed time between the 2 points


Pmfr

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2 minutes ago, Ghideon said:

-The AI on the automated Apollo rescue ship has to spend some additional time decrypting 1000+ year old military grade security systems on Joes ship?

They have all that information in the history records.

4 minutes ago, Ghideon said:

-Earlier malfunctions on Joes ship need repair to cope with the acceleration to leave orbit?

The ship is a sort of smaller ship hauler (it's called the 'Transcender') . It's hauling the MCC as a separate piece on the outside (like a cargo bin). The Joes cryo pods are located inside the MCC itself. The ship suffers integrity damage. The Apollo's rescue ship grabs the MCC and runs away from the black hole, leaving the 'Transcender' to it's fate. Supposedly it's a special design of ship, equipped for 'high-gravity' hit-and-run scenarios.

9 minutes ago, Ghideon said:

Then use the supernova idea to delay Joes traveling through the wormhole.

The black hole alone can handle all the delays. I'm putting the supernova idea on the drawer for now.

12 minutes ago, Ghideon said:

And you can have a fiction universe with wormhole technology without introducing time travel technology. 

It is my understanding that a wormhole automatically involves some amount of time travel. I'm more inclined know to leave the wormhole tech to the 'Galileo III's core and have the rescue ship use FTL tech. What do you think?

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42 minutes ago, Pmfr said:

It is my understanding that a wormhole automatically involves some amount of time travel.

I do not know enough about the various worm hole variants in current models to have an opinion. But in fiction the time travel possibility could be left out.

42 minutes ago, Pmfr said:

I'm more inclined know to leave the wormhole tech to the 'Galileo III's core and have the rescue ship use FTL tech. What do you think?

Personal opinions: I think it sounds like a god idea. Basing the introduction on less exotic things may make the narrative look more scientifically plausible*, even if narrative is still purely fiction. It may also help build a plausible start for the game. If Apollos have not yet mastered the wormhole technology then there is more room for needing the Joes help. Unless crucial for the plot I would try to not use FTL in the opening. Someone capable of faster than light travel has limited need for developing a wormhole.

 

*) plausible to the player in the game universe, not necessarily so in mainstream science.

Edited by Ghideon
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I don't like the idea of the Apollos using wormhole tech to get to the Joes by the black hole. Some kind of FTL or hyperdrive would be more suitable. for a small spacecraft.

8 minutes ago, Ghideon said:

Someone capable of faster than light travel has limited need for developing a wormhole.

It makes more sense in the 'Galileo III' context, the core, that is.

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2 minutes ago, Pmfr said:

Some kind of FTL or hyperdrive would be more suitable. for a small spacecraft.

If you want to avoid FTL technology you could let the black hole have an extremely high relative velocity seen from Apollos. While Joes are in black hole orbit they, and the black hole gets close enough to Apollos to make the use of a slower than light speed mission plausible to the reader.  

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3 minutes ago, Pmfr said:

Could you write a small narrative example?

Sure!

Note: rough outline for fiction scenario: 2050 the Joes happen to be on their way towards the location where Apollos will be at 4010. A black hole passes through space from behind Joes, heading in the general direction towards Apollos future location. The black hole has a much higher velocity relative to Apollos future location than Joes not so advanced technology allows for. The Joes are trapped in an orbit around the black hole and hence dragged along, still in generally the same direction towards Apollos future location but much faster than before. This means that in the year 4010 the Joes will be much closer to Apollos than if the Joes had continued their journey at their initial lower speed. Apollos rescue mission will have to travel a shorter distance to reach the Joes so FLT is not required.

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Questions:

- Will the Apollos time frame be longer than the Joes?

- For how long could the Joes ship hold one without being 'consumed' by the black hole?

- FTL is not required, but is it safe to assume that the Apollo's rescue ship will require a faster than average engine tech perhaps?

- The black hole is moving toward the Apollos location. Isn't that dangerous for their entire system?

Edited by Pmfr
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11 hours ago, Pmfr said:

- Will the Apollos time frame be longer than the Joes?

Scientific answer: According to General Relativity* there is a difference of elapsed time between two events as measured by observers situated at varying distances from a gravitating mass. Gravitational time dilation has been experimentally confirmed and measured. 

Usage in fiction: Stating that someone in close orbit of a black hole will age slower compared to someone at a large distance from the black hole (and other strong sources of gravitation) is in agreement with current theories. The time dilation can be calculated but in a work of fiction that may not be necessary; in fiction one could claim the effect to be larger or smaller than in a real situation. In my opinion a sci-fi plot looks more convincing from a science perspective if it takes existing concepts (time dilation) and extrapolates/enhance/modify its effects rather than introducing concepts known to be impossible (time travel). 

11 hours ago, Pmfr said:

For how long could the Joes ship hold one without being 'consumed' by the black hole?

Scientific answer: Orbital decay** will eventually cause an object in orbit to pass the event horizon of the black hole. In the case where a small object is in orbit around a massive body in vacuum the decay takes very long time. 

Usage in fiction: The risk to crash into the black hole when in orbit can be neglected without deviating from mainstream science. Personal opinion: In fiction I would be intentionally vague when explaining how the ship happened to have exactly the right orbit.  

11 hours ago, Pmfr said:

- FTL is not required, but is it safe to assume that the Apollo's rescue ship will require a faster than average engine tech perhaps?

Usage in fiction: I do not know. In your work of fiction you are free to create a suitable scenario.

 

11 hours ago, Pmfr said:

- The black hole is moving toward the Apollos location. Isn't that dangerous for their entire system?

Scientific answer: It depends. A massive body passing close (or through) to a solar system will have an impact on orbits, possibly negative.  

Usage in fiction:  "Safe distance" and "in the general direction of" is intentionally vague. May be used in the work of fiction so that a black hole passes a solar system at a safe distance but close enough to allow for a mission to reach it. Doing so in reality may not be possible but it may look convince enough in the work of fiction depending on how it is presented to the audience.

 

*) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gravitational_time_dilation

**) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Orbital_decay

 

Edited by Ghideon
clarified some sentences
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Ghideon, I've readapted the dialogue to the new reality. Here it goes.

Quote

Markl faces the squad.

- “Allow me to explain. As you’re already aware, you didn’t arrive here in the ‘Transcender’, your ship. You did so in a special type of rescue/salvaging drone spacecraft.” Pause. “This drone was sent to meet the ‘Transcender’ which was orbiting a type ?? black hole, grab your mobile command center and return.” Pause. “The ‘Transcender’ itself was damaged beyond repair, the drone found the MCC almost completely detached and acquired you just in time”. – Markl.

- “Oh…” – Lance whispers.

- “Being in close orbit to this singularity caused your time frame to pass slower compared to ours, due to its much higher velocity relative to our location. The black hole was heading in the general direction of our system, which made it convenient. Being trapped in its orbit, it dragged you along in the same direction towards us, but much faster than before. This means that in our time you were much closer to us than if you had continued your journey at the initial lower speed. The drone only had to travel a short distance in order to reach you.” – Markl.

- “Not easy to understand.” – Me.

- “You caught us right on time…” – Lance.

- “Actually, we had some time. In this case where a tiny object like the ‘Transcender’ is in orbit around a massive body in vacuum like this particular black hole, the absorption takes a very long time. So, its orbital decay, which causes it to pass it’s the event horizon, was a lengthy one.” – Lance.

- “We’re lucky to be alive.” – Abrams.

- “I don’t think we would’ve noticed it otherwise.” – Perez.

Is Markl's explanation logically well structured? Please feel free to correct it.

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On 11/10/2020 at 5:37 PM, Pmfr said:

Is Markl's explanation logically well structured?

That is a little tricky; even if it may be scientifically reasonable it could still be illogical in this work of fiction. I will comment on the science, not the artistic style etc.

I would probably remove singularity from the description. A singularity, as far as I know, is generally a sign for a missing piece in a theory. An advanced civilisation capable of worm hole technology in fiction would probably have moved past that. The time dilation in this case is also due to gravity so to simplify you may have something like:

- “Being in close orbit to this singularity caused your time frame to pass slower compared to ours due to its much higher velocity relative to our location."
result
- “Being in close orbit caused your time to pass slower compared to ours." 

 

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