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Enthalpy

Woodwind Fingerings

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This other arrangement of keys at the boot of the baritone oboe of Sep 16, 2018 has advantages:

OboeBariBoot.png.e91787dc815beea255175e3776e81377.png

  • Pyramidal frames hold the boot firmly together so the keys fit precisely.
  • Transmissions from the main joint are easy and the disassembled main joint protects them.
  • The keys can be light and still stiff.
  • The keys are easily synchronized and adjusted.

The toneholes can be tilted so the covers move perpendicularly to them. Not displayed here.

With easy adaptations, the arrangement of keys applies to similar instruments if designed with a boot. This includes the English horn, lower tárogatók, saxophones, rothphones, sarrusophones, optionally with my automatic cross-fingerings.

Marc Schaefer, aka Enthalpy

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This is an example of a hand rest on a flute, gratefully pinched from the bass YFL-B441

HandRest.jpg.23b67c1947d95237f4a5e81f4904108d.jpg

For the systems I propose, where both thumbs must move freely, it can inspire both hand rests at the flute. Some non-horizontal instruments may need an adapted shape.

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Most concert flutes have a low natural B presently so my system must have it too. Rather than adding an optional sixth synchronized cover at the foot joint, it's better to shift all keys and fingerings a halftone lower and have the low B on all instruments, as it serves for trills. Here's the fingering chart, updated from Jul 02, 2017 here:

FluteLowB.png.400fd6dd7549dd9faff880d67fed5e5d.png

All qualities are kept, including easy slurs and trills using the standard fingerings on both lower octaves, and perfect cross-fingerings for all notes, including the third octave F#, G#, Bb, B and further in the fourth octave. The 7th and 9th modes could be added.

Maybe we can have a register key for the first five notes of the second register. With its long button along the five thumb buttons for simultaneous use, and a tiny hole.

Marc Schaefer, aka Enthalpy

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Here's a system with simple keyworks for the Soprito, the piccolo reed instrument that plays on its higher modes, about a seventh or octave higher than written.

This system has only one tone hole per halftone position and independent keys. Most fore fingers operate two buttons and covers. The covers are closed at rest except the four lowest, so the musician lowers fewer fingers, which eases cross-fingerings.

SopritoFingE.png.b4c6e0b7c21b9d6febea3085076a0b1d.png

The fingers can operate the button pairs at different phalanges or both with the tips, as suggested there
https://www.scienceforums.net/topic/107427-woodwind-fingerings/?do=findComment&comment=1060629
experiments shall decide.

The thumbs move no cover but about four duplicated register keys not displayed on the drawing.

These fingerings are expectedly as difficult as the flute's one.

Marc Schaefer, aka Enthalpy

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The more recent automatic cross-fingerings I described
 here on May 14, 2018 and Jun 03, 2018
open four or more adjacent holes at the main transition, and open 1 or 2 fork holes early in the high register.

So would these automatic cross-fingerings suffice for a flute, which badly needs them?

I doubt it. At system C, overcrowding imposes smaller direct holes at the upper end. This is bad for the timbre there and for the ease of the highest notes. At system D, the many consequent holes increase the acoustic losses, undesired.

Would CAD drawings and trials bring a good surprise? I'm not optimistic for the flute.

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The Nov 10, 2018 flute system can have a common register key for the medium B, C, C#, D but not for the altissimo Bb to F - at least according to my figures.

From altissimo Bb to F, the pressure node just right of the lip plate moves too much. The flute's pressure node pinned near the embouchure worsens this, a reed eases it. As the extreme notes create more pressure under the register hole, losses increase. It would need more holes, each for about 3 notes like the bassoon has - not quite seducing.

FluteRegisterKeys.png.619c634f8be7d36abb92c8d5f24dae48.png

For medium B to D, the common set of register holes would be just below the left index' C cover. Maybe the index can manage them too as at the oboe, especially if the holes reside in the cover, but I prefer a long button at both thumbs, along the buttons for B to D.

If the set of holes is 14kH inductive (I take V similar to Pa and A to m3/s), at 539Hz in the medium register the two half-colums must compensate it by 2*3.2pF or 2*1.6mm of their length. That's 0.5% detuning which the instrument design can compensate. Widening the low joint would be fantastic if this reinforces the low notes.

I take holes 8mm long because I imagine shorter ones would increase the losses unproportionally when playing forte. If I'm wrong, have fewer shorter holes.

Drill bits exist for D=0.3mm so 10 holes make the 14kH. Many small holes increase the losses at identical inductance to suppress the low register better. This may be new. The oboe has a slit for that purpose. A laser machine, preferably pulsed, can cut deep slits. The pad should cover all holes directly, as a chamber below the pad would create damping at some frequency. Against moisture, a thin water-repellant layer may help. The basoon has already a narrow long "whisper hole".

The tone holes increase losses, maybe processes still unknown too. Without them, radiation, viscosity and conductivity losses for arbitrary 1Pa (all rms) antinode pressure in a bare cylindrical L=632mm D=19mm air column are
* 1.5+5.5+2.6=9.6nW at medium 539Hz;
* 0.4+3.9+1.9=6.2nW at low 269Hz.

The 75mm2 set of 10* D=0.3mm L=8mm register holes increases the losses when open, hopefully enough for a stable and pure second mode:
* at 539Hz and 0.27*1Pa hence 8.1mm/s flow, by 0.25nW or +3%;
* at 269Hz and 1Pa hence 60mm/s, by 9.9nW or *2.6.

On a flute with low B, the medium D may not use the register hole, which can be more specialized and efficient.

==========

A seducing alternative would add at both thumbs 6 smaller keys like the left index has at the Boehm flute. Small holes increase the instrument's losses little. These would be at perfect locations and serve also for the altissimo register. 11 buttons at the thumbs, enough to make bassoonists happy.

FluteManyRegisterKeys.png.caed304d8b89648f886b13691e175cfa.png

Pressing twin buttons with a thumb eases the fingerings, and the many open holes at perfect locations ease the altissimo register emission.

Marc Schaefer, aka Enthalpy

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This shows flutes with four systems, three already described and one coming here, retroactively named A B C D:

FluteLookABCD.png.6bc2b8475e5ff9ab55036dbbe8a60a0b.png

The differences reside high at the main joint.

==========

The D flute system has four tone holes above the left hand, without overlapping due to other trills and octave switch, and moved by both thumbs.

FluteSystemD.png.e1d5b1fa92a1df44aed7a31d37cac938.png

True tone holes high at the main joint shall emit altissimo notes easily, 3 or 4 fork holes too. Though, the additional big holes may increase the losses at other registers. Maybe the bore can be slightly wider for balanced improvement everywhere.

I've drawn the added tone holes aligned, consistently with a rumour about losses, but the keys would be simpler if at the tube's side.

I ignore which system is better. At least, they're very similar, so trying them is a smaller effort.

Marc Schaefer, aka Enthalpy

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Here's a system D contrabasson, bent at the bell to be less tall. What would be the boot at a bassoon is folded to the front for compactness. Disassembled, it fits in a manageable case.

ContrabassoonDbent.png.88a975c1aeb7030c78ebd58f0b00a43e.png

The right and left tubes could very well be swapped so the left fingers' tips reach between the tubes to make simpler keys.

Only the two low B and Bb keys cross an assembly line, plus the hypothetic register keys at the bocal.

All tone hole covers can be at wooden parts, and the bell and U-turns are passive. Some strict woodwind manufactures should find it easier. But the bell, turn and two nearby cylinders can be one metal joint.

The metal walls could be electroformed as already suggested
Jan 01, 2018 and May 02, 2017 and nearby
while graphite composite might perhaps replace wood too if the polymer matrix dampens enough (polyketone? Abs?)
Nov 01, 2017 and followers
Whiskers-loaded polymers can be machined similarly to wood while filament winding can make bent shapes
Nov 01, 2017

Marc Schaefer, aka Enthalpy

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After two centuries gap, the oboe da caccia was revived few decades ago, as copies of a museum piece unable to play
scienceforums and next
it has a nice sound, soft and clear, distinct from the instruments common presently. But as a faithful copy of the museum piece, it has antique recorder-like fingerings.

I propose that the oboe da caccia receives my even fingerings, for instance the ones described here on Jul 30 and Jul 23, 2017.

  • With very few keys, where the covers for low notes can be on the rear, the aspect is preserved.
  • Regular hole positions make a better instrument, easier to play and with even sound, able to reach higher notes.
  • Designing the new set of tone holes will be easier with regular hole positions than with the present oboe system.
  • Very few people play the historic fingerings. Newcomers have to learn fingerings anyway: better my simple ones than the awkward historic ones.
  • If the curved body is kept, the oboe system is about impossible to build, while mine is easy.

Just in case a luthier is tempted by wide tone holes on a double reed instrument: Sax, Triebert and Gautrot failed. It's better to take some diameters from the historic instrument. Maybe chambers aren't needed, if the body's fabrication method dampens the strident high frequencies enough, as I believe to hear.

Marc Schaefer, aka Enthalpy

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Among my proposals for the oboe and similar, the D even fingering variant takes the fewest and simplest keys. How many bare holes can it use?

None at the five thumb holes. Not at the second index hole that should be placed properly a semitone higher than the first. Supposedly not at the pinkies as they are short.

6 holes remain. They can all be bare at the oboe and oboe d'amore, for agile, silent, reliable, light and cheap instruments. At the oboe da caccia and cor anglais, the left hand holes can be bare, plus two at right hand: same R1 to R2 spacing as on the bassoon, comfortable but for children. The baritone oboe can have two bare holes at left hand.

OboeEvenDBareHoles.png.9aff7ac0c98365c690fb217a6808f688.png

The real distances will be slightly smaller. The table takes half-wavelengths in air, but small tone holes are higher on the air column.

I would not have long skewed tone holes as the bassoon has. They behave differently at the upper register, but the cross-fingerings there should fit a whole instrument family. Chambers eccentric above the tone hole narrow bore can gain a few mm.

Marc Schaefer, aka Enthalpy

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Posted (edited)
On 5/9/2018 at 10:31 AM, Enthalpy said:

I used to play the violin, the piano, the saxophone, the flute, the contrabass tuba and the bassoon but stopped all when I moved to a hotel in Munich. I will play the winds again some time.

Wow:eek:, impressive...The last time I played the winds was in school. I played the flute also in the army cadets band (and at home), i wanted to play the side drum but they made me play flute instead. I actually really enjoyed it, I got pretty good, wish I'd kept playing. This is a seriously impressive thread, you'd make one hell of a one man band. 

Its makes me want to learn to play an instrument again. Always fancied the banjo or saxophone. Do you like jazz? If you do, enjoy....

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=vmDDOFXSgAs

err..if you don't, sorry for ruining your thread. And thanks for the reply the other day.

Edited by Curious layman

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Thanks for your interest!

Yes, I like jazz, though I started the alto sax for classical music, after hearing it at the pictures at an exhibition. I have a record of Take five with Gerry Mulligan at the baritone, very nice sound.

Any woodwind is easier than the flute, and by much. The sax has easy fingerings but has less known shortcomings. Very high in demand are the oboe (needs only a huge pressure and extra-strong lips), the bassoon (rather easy, especially as compared with the flute), the bass clarinet (works very well, easier than the soprano, have your own and orchestras seek you already).

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The D variant of my oboe even fingerings makes a sleek cor anglais, simpler than a baritone oboe, almost as simple as a soprano oboe, as holes spacing decides it. I don't display the thumb pushers nor the register keys.

CorAnglaisLook.png.d33b88a2fdadfa9e827f05024ce7b5fd.png

After hearing the effect of Pmma, the materials clearly matter at an oboe, and I would shun brass and nickel silver for the bow, the bell or pear and maybe the bocal, but would consider lossy alloys that can be electroformed: NiCo, Pcm, sterling silver, said to improve bassoon bocals.
scienceforums and around

Some polymers might improve the body: damping polyketones, and stiff and damping liquid crystal polymers, possibly with graphite choppers or filaments. They might outperform Dalbergia and they can cross borders. Better, they avoid the plastic lining in the oboe or bassoon bore.

Silver tenons are said to improve wooden flutes. I've proposed a model that speaks against cork, there
scienceforums
illustrated by a clarinet, but this would apply to all double reeds too, including at the bocal.

I've drawn a low Bb because the oboe has it. Stowasser's bell with many small holes shall even out the emission and timbre bette than the pear shape. All cor anglais should have this alternative, maybe an addition to existing instruments. I suppose Stowasser's holes could replace everything Heckel added to the pear of his heckelphone. Lupophone?

Bending the low joint would shrink a cor anglais to an alto saxophone's size. Electroforming seems easiest if some alloy dampens enough. I've suggested processes to make bows of wood or polymer, or to obtain them by filament winding
Aug 16, 2019 04:16 PM - Dec 04, 2018 - Mar 30, 2019 02:34 PM and around

I've shown from the side the stiff pyramids that connect both branches of the bow and the keys' axis for reliable keyworks and hopefully better sound. See also the baritone oboe.

Marc Schaefer, aka Enthalpy

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All bow joint covers move by the same angle as they are one single axle and synchronized, in the design I proposed on
Sep 16, 2018 - Sep 23, 2018 - Sep 26, 2019 12:06 AM

Wind instruments benefit from wide bows, so two holes there are nearer to the axis, and their covers lift less. Besides choosing the bow radius, which the narrow bore of the oboe and bassoon families ease, these two holes can be put more outwards than the bore's middle line, and all other holes more inwards, to minimize the difference. The hole diameter can also compensate the lift height somewhat.

Covers for lower notes must lift higher. Offsetting the axle closer to the higher branch does that, tilting it closer to the higher notes too.

The chimney rims need not be parallel to the bow plane. Pads work better if the rim is rather perpendicular to the movement.

Marc Schaefer, aka Enthalpy

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If an instrument with my even fingerings has the thumb platters on a straight joint, a common tilted axis can still vary the lift of the platters according to the note height.

As my even fingerings let all notes open all platters below the main transition, the platter lift can vary smoothly with the note height.

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