Bettina

okay your right i will go ahead and try to explain.

 

okay the first thing you have to understand is that EVERYTHING is interconnected in higher dimensions. this has been confirmed by quantum physics. nothing is seperate and everything is connected together.

 

are you following me? okay good

 

all right next thing you need to know is that the whole universe is based around symmetry. look at a snowflake. that is symmetry in action. snowflakes CRYSTALIZE into a pattern through what is called spontaneously broken symmetry.

 

and that is what the entire universe is. it's like a giant multidimensional crystal that is constantly crystalizing. the crystal is timespace and what we call NOW is actually where it's crystalizing.

 

i am sure if we could zoom out on the crystal of the universe this is what we would see. it's like each moment is determined by the structure of the crystal which already exists and the crystal continues to freeze and crystalize as we move forward in time.

 

so yeah' date=' that's it, the universe is a giant crystal[/quote']

 

I can't let this go on without saying something. You seem like a gentle person but coming into a science forum with a name like Krstlmthd, talking about the universe being a giant crystal, having psychedelic experiences, and finally in another post asking about Methamphetamine is going to get you humiliated. How old are you anyway? Sixteen is my guess.

 

Please do yourself a favor and look at these links... and forgive me if I didn't get the joke. I just don't like seeing kids on drugs.

 

http://www.crystal-meth.us/

 

http://www.crystalmeth.org/

 

Bettina

 

Hmmm..... http://www.thecrystalmethod.com/ Guess the joke was on me.

Bettina' date=' if it causes you discomfort, then we shall let the debate stop right here. You and I are on the same side, we just believe in differing tactics.

 

Oh, and don't be too hard on your government. There is no evidence that the reason you suggested was the one for dropping the bombs.[/quote']

 

I know were on the same side, its just that we can't see each other. and thanks.

 

I was told once that the enemy wasn't worth the thousands of soldiers that would have been killed invading Japan on foot. I say the young women and her baby and all those kids were worth it. Its just something that I am ashamed of especially when I see movies like "Tora, Tora, Tora". Its ok to view Pearl Harbor as part of history, but not to keep rubbing it into the Japanese people of today with more war movies.

 

I wonder how we americans would feel if Japan started making movies like "Hiroshima" every few years, with all the burning babies. I bet we would cry foul.

 

Anyway, its something I'm not proud of and can't forgive. I treat it as criminal.

 

Bettina

JohnB.

I wanted to get out of this thread but to answer your post, you owe me no apology. I find this thread too much of an emotional struggle for me because I find it hard to comprehend why people are evil and twice as hard to comprehend why people put up with it, don't fight it, or say its not their problem. I just don't understand that kind of thinking. Because of it, I don't express myself well in these kind of threads, or positions, and I often attack people for being either blind, ignorant, or having a total lack of any empathy whatsoever.

The scenario of the women getting beaten up in church, and those who would not respond to her distress, was an example. At 97 pounds I would not be able to do it myself so I let my emotions rule because its the only way I know how to fight. I know its immature of course, but its what I feel inside me and its what gets me in trouble here.

I am a solid atheist because of the feelings I have and because of the continuing pain I see committed every day in the world I see. From terrorists killing people today, the ones that will be killed tommorrow, all the way back to Hiroshima and Nagasaki. I didn't need Martin to mention that to me because years ago when I read about that event, I could see vividly a young Japanese women pushing her baby carriage down a sidewalk with her young daughter and son next to her and in an instant being burned alive. I could feel that literally. Those people were not soldiers, they were civilians living in a city, like you and me, and although that was not in my lifetime I am still ashamed of being an American with that blood on my face. I consider that to be much worse than the orginal sin thats mentioned almost every Sunday in church. I will never forgive my government for doing that because I know the real reason that they dropped the bombs was to test them on a live target before the war ended.

I also will never forgive those who kill kids for any reason, those who behead people for the dumbest of reasons like culture, religion or whatnot. My convictions on those types of people, what they stand for, and the death penalty for those who commit them, are solid and will never change. I'm very sorry for calling people cowards and other names and surprised still that I didn't get a warning. I at least got the RevPres connection and its been bothering me for a few days now. How I acted here was not me in real life nor how I was brought up. My dad still worries that I'm too naive in many things and still notoriously quiet.... except when I'm here.

Reverse.

I commend you on your actions because what you encountered is the exception not the rule. Don't hesitate next time to save someone in distress because next time she may thank you, and that thank you will make you feel that life is important.

Bettina

I have an idea that may work

Cut out six squares of mylar balloon material and put them together to make a cube but were not done yet so don't glue it all. This material does not stretch very much, yet is flexible enough to compact to something small.

Inside this "balloon" you are going to add four rectangular shape balloons (the kind you make balloon animals with) so one end connects to one corner of the cube while the other end connects diagonally opposite to the other end of the cube.

The theory is that when you blow up the internal balloons, they will push out on all of the corners of the mylar balloon forming your perfect cube.

I'm not sure how to blow up the internal balloons unless you make those too so one inlet blows them all up.

We have used only balloon material, and it can be compacted and blown up later.

I think this would work.

Bettina

Does the balloon need to be in a deflated initial state then blown up square? I'm asuming it does.

Bet

no problemo

in my view a passionate moral outburst sometimes clears the air like a thunderstorm

and could also be valuable because a certain amount of strident conflict and challenge to authority (if intelligently thought out and expressed) livens the place up.

 

BTW Bettina this what I am about to say is not about you----I wanted to get your reaction. I often valued RevPrez presence very much (he was admittedly stiff-necked and obnoxious in the extreme)' date=' I also thoroughly disagreed with his politics, and disapproved of the way he would argue and take preposterous positions (as I saw it).

 

He got too many warnings as was banned. I actually miss the guy. It is too quiet a lot of the time. And I think he taught me something----not sure what though.

 

Do you remember RevPrez, and do you have any opinion of him and whether he was good or bad to have around? (I think he may have later returned briefly under some other name but if he did I forget what it was)

 

Any answer is fine---I am not necessarily looking for agreement but for reasons from another mind. But agreement is fine too of course.[/quote']

 

No, I don't know him, but if he got warnings then I don't want to be like him. I've learned a lesson here about what I should and should not debate. Since I am emotion based, I don't always fit in with certain posts like religion and politics. I'm going to cool it for awhile because this thread upset me big time.

 

I know its nothing personal, but I need to re-examine my feelings on what is right and wrong. The last thing I want is to get a warning.

 

Bettina

Ok, I get the message and I didn't even have to read between the lines to find my name.

I apologize to any of you that I've offended. I have to realize that this forum consists of people who speak logically and intellegently while everything I do is emotionally based.

So, forgive me please, and I promise to keep my personal emotion to myself and either speak logically or not at all. Unfortunately, I posted to Matt Grime already. I hope he forgives me too.

Again, I'm sorry and I'm sorry that this thread had to even start.

Bettina

Matt Grime.....

I don't care what nationality Bin Laden or his pilots were. He was based in Afganistan and was protected by the Taliban which was the "ruling government" at the time. A government who not only supported terrorism, but oppressed their women and children to a degree never realized anywhere else in the world.

It was under Bin Ladens orders that those pilots flew the planes into our buildings and it was that government who was unwilling to give him up when we found out it was him.

To me, this was an act of war, metaphorically speaking, or otherwise and I am proud of the soldiers who went in and toppled that government. I would have gone in just to free those 8 year old girls who weren't allowed in school.

I don't care about past history of any country. I care about the now that is now. I care about the world thats going to be, but unfortunately I see death coming from Islamic extremists.

Another thing. You are dead wrong that I don't have to worry about any attack and I can't believe you treat whats going on so lightly. The rest of your post about how many people are killed on the highways was useless information that had nothing to do with the intent of what I posted.

Either way, in my scenario of the man in church, you pretty much just told me what you would have done.

Bettina

Thanks Martin

My dad said I should have no problem with my connection speed. I will be looking forward to seeing those lectures.

Thanks

Bettina

sorry about using up so much ink

 

I read a lot right on the computer screen' date=' and don't print it out, saves ink.

But some years ago I had a smaller, less clear monitor, and I still have stacks and shelves of papers I printed out.

 

Bettina you mentioned about LISA RANDALL at Harvard.

Check this out:

http://www.perimeterinstitute.ca/activities/community/generalpublic/publiclectures.php

 

it has a photo of Lisa and a blurb about a public lecture she will give at Perimeter Institute on 1 March

these Perimeter public lectures are usually put ON LINE as video for free viewing

 

You might want to locate where the public lectures are kept, and see if you can view them with your connection and your system. Most people I have spoken with say they CAN. I can with my system and I watch Perimeter talks a lot----they show the blackboard or slides, and the person talking.

 

Here are where the Perimeter "streaming media" videos of talks are kept:

http://streamer.perimeterinstitute.ca:81/mediasite/viewer/

 

On the sidebar menu on the left you click on "Public Lectures" and after 1 March there will be Lisa talk there but there are already a whole lot of talks----by roger penrose, and steven weinberg, and james hartle and edward witten and other celebrities like that (whose talks I mostly don't watch actually) but also by young researchers that one doesnt hear about but who are trying out interesting new approaches to the problems that haunt physics. some of them are in the "Seminar Series" part of the menu, instead of the "Public Lectures" part.

 

If you are interested in watching Lisa Randall, then maybe it would be good idea to try watching one of these talks------the James Hartle one is not bad (he is not one of these charismatic figures, and he explains well)----as a sample to see if your system will do Perimeter talks. Then when Lisa is on line you will know what to expect.

 

there are other resources like this, at MIT, harvard, etc. You probably know of them and may have already watched a bunch. There may even be Lisa Randall talks at other sites, that i just don't know about. I would be interested to know what you come up with.[/quote']

 

I can't believe I missed your post. I just saw it now. I will take anything that you have on Lisa Randall, and would love to hear her lectures but I can't get into that public lectures link. It says not found.

 

I have a 2.8 Ghz computer with high speed cable, and 1 gig of memory.

 

Bettina

A) Your mention of them hating our lifestyle and not our way of pushing our life style on others IS a misconception. I dont blame you or any other Americans that believe they genuinely hate the American way of life because thats the way the media portrays it.

 

B) It's not a matter of whether or not you or I agree with their way of life it's a matter of if we have the right to step in and change it. I am most definatly not "sick" or a "coward"' date=' on the contrary im a very compassionate person who cares deeply for the rights of everyone in the Mid-East but i also realize they dont want my help.

 

When they drive car bombs into military strongholds in Iraq i get the idea that the citizens don't want our culture forced upon them. This isnt Saddam were fighting anymore....now were fighting to convince the populous that our ways are the right ways. I know from first hand experience that this won't hold up for long and the country will eventually be thrown into a state of termoil that the US won't be able to correct.

 

C) [b']The Constitution of the United States doesnt say ANYTHING about righting all the wrongs abroad. [/b] We create a safe basis for a sturdy economy/infrastructure/religious and cultural expression and perpetuate that within our boarders. The US Armed Forces are there to protect our boundries-no more, no less- and I assure you the best way to do so would be to pull out of the Mid-East and admit our attempts to stablize their country were well intentioned but not our job.

 

D)

 

That is the misconception. If that is their goal-and i assure you it isn't-what does flying planes into our buildings do to assist them in converting us to their ways? Not a very effective strategy if you ask me. It seems theyre trying to accomplish something else with these horrible actions....maybe deter us from continually invading their countries? It seems thats a more plausible purpose.

 

 

-AweBurn

 

Edit:

 

Please clarify your terms here. When you talk of this oh-so-laborous work that all nations should do together, you're really speaking of straight up imperialism. The Swiss realize that they wouldnt want any other world power to show them how to run their country and, therefore, (categorical imperitive..) realize it's not something they should do. If you can't see the hypocrisy in the USA saying they dont believe anyone else should screw with thier home-turf yet they continually topple governments abraod to protect "OUR INTERESTS" (aka-oil) then this conversation is not worth my time.

Section A)... We are not trying to push our lifestyle on them. We are trying to change theirs to a more civilized one so they fit into what the rest of the world is doing. There lifestyle, calls for the killing of infidels....you and me. That has been brewing for years and needs to be changed no matter what.

Section B)... This bothers me the most. The car bombs going off in Iraq, are from Islamic Muslim Terrorists not from the Iraqi driving a taxi or the women baking bread, the new policemen and firemen, or the people who want to be free. As far as the "Do we have a right to step in" is concerned, its an emphatic YES. Sure, you care about justice in the middle east as long as they don't ask you personally. So what does that make you.

Section C)... Who's job is it then? And...does "Isolationism" ring a bell?

Now, I will grant you that I have issues with us going into Iraq militarily. I still have not seen the reasons for it and it most probably could have been handled diplomatically. However, we have a fool for a president. But not with afganistan. I would have gone in there anyway even if they didn't bomb us.

A hypothetical story.....

Lets say while I'm singing in church, (I really do) I see a muslim man suddenly stand up and start physically beating his wife. (forget that he is in my church) He continues beating her because she spoke when she wasn't supposed to, or maybe lifted her burka and showed her face, or the multitude of other rules I gave you in those links. He continues to beat her relentlessly, until a man in the rear of the church runs down and punches him into the floor until he bleeds and had to be brought out on a stretcher.

I commend that man for standing up and defending that women even though she didn't want to be defended because she feared more retribution. Or, it was customary for her to be beaten if she didn't follow the rules set down by allah for the meaning of her existence.

However, I condemn those who stood there in front seeing first hand what was going on and did nothing, because they didn't want to get involved. That basically sums up my feelings on life and certain countries, like Russia, China, and the Swiss especially. So, which one in the crowd are you? From your post above, you kind of made that clear to me.

Since this is no longer worth your time. I will give you the last word and will refrain.

Bettina

Unofficially' date=' there are over a billion and a half Muslims worldwide. If even 1% were bloodthirsty terrorist bombers bent on perverting the intent of their religion there would be 15 million of them after us. Believe me, the active terrorists you see splashed all over the newspapers may barely number in the tens of thousands. It doesn't sound like the Bettina I know to want to kill 100,000 people because a couple of them might be terrorists.

 

Don't get me wrong. I detest terrorism on many levels, the foremost being that our response to it has done nothing but fan the flames. A heavy military response only gains followers for terrorists who are protesting against oppression. Bombs, tanks and planes to fight small terrorist cells is like using a rifle on cockroaches.

 

Secondly, terrorism is ineffective. Terrorism is a propoganda tactic but militarily it is the biggest failure EVER. It has never won the terrorists anything strategic. No policy gets changed because of terrorist attacks (at least not the policies the terrorists were trying to change). If anything it serves only to increase military response, and THAT is what they really want.

 

Terrorism only serves to allow a very small fringe extremist element to gain followers attracted to their seeming sacrifice against a much stronger foe. They thrive on the underdog syndrome and the more we match them hate for hate, the more power and backing they gain.

 

Please understand why it is important for you to stop saying things like, "What I find disgusting [b']about the Islamics[/b] is the fact that they try to kill as many women and children as they can thru suicide bombings instead of trying to kill soldiers." Compared to the vast majority, those with terrorist leanings are a tiny minority, but they grow in number as long as people like you keep painting them all with the same brush. You are condemning many people who object to terrorism as much as you do. I doubt that the majority of Muslims would ever hold you, a Caucasian from the US south, responsible for what the KKK has done in the name of Christianity in the past.

 

Feel free to comment on the Islamic terrorists, but please refrain from racist remarks which assume all Islamics are terrorists.

Again, I hear you, but what bothers me is that out of the billions of muslims, not many are condemning what there evil brothers are doing. Yes, some do, but most don't. Maybe what I should say is "What I find disgusting about the Islamic Muslim terrorists is the fact that they target women and children"

I'm still the Bettina you know, its just that I can't deal with what I see on TV, especially when I know the worse is yet to come and it will be done by Muslim extremists and fanatics. They have the desire and the will to kill as many innocents as they can. Wait till they get a nuke.

Edit... This is why I feel all civilized nations, US, Britain, France, Germany, etc, should all go in and fight them, not just leave it to a few, like the Swiss have always done.

Bettina

I think it is a common misconception that the Mid-East hate our freedoms and "bikini clad women". They realize that our ways of life are very different from theirs but as long as their chunk of land is free from our influence' date=' they dont give a damn if America was one huge orgy-fest. What they do care about is our imperialism. They dont want our way of life to be forced on them. The misconception that you pointed out is simply a smoke screen to convince Americans that we should exterminate them. I understand you thoroughly dislike their barbaric ways and it brings back not-so-fond memories of Vietnam but I see those acts as last ditch efforts to protect their way of life. They flew planes into buildings in NY and bombed the London subway because they want us to get the point...stop forcing your government, religious virtues, and culture on us.

 

I find those acts as unforgivable as any other mass murder but in all of these cases i think it takes a bit more inspection to deduce the true meaning of their acts.

 

They dont hate us for being different. They hate us for being different and assuming they should be that way also...They haven't suicide bombed the Swiss recently and I think its fairly obvious why...The Swiss defend their boarders to the death but the moment you're outside of them you follow the rules of the land there. Do you sympathize with these premises as leading to the extremists we hear about so often in the media? Does it soften your hatred of those non-extremists who still feel oppressed?

 

I'm here to pursue the truth.[/quote']

 

If your here to pursue the truth, then pursue this. It is Islam who wishes to change the world to their way of thinking, not America, or Britain, or any other civilized country. Do you like their way of life? Then maybe you should check out the links below and see what oppression was doing to women and children in afganistan before we made changes. I am proud of what we did and what we are doing to fight evil in this world.

 

Look at those links below.... After that, if you still feel that they have a right to protect "their way of life", then your sick or just a coward. Its too bad you have a blind eye and label everyone elses ideas as misconceptions, yet have no ideas of your own. I could go further, but it would get me a warning, if I don't get one now.

 

http://www.rawa.org/rules.htm

 

http://www.islamfortoday.com/afghanistanwomen1.htm

 

http://www.womenaid.org/humanrights/shadows/news.htm

 

http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2000/10/23/eveningnews/main243429.shtml

 

Bettina

Please avoid generalizations like this. Like many other extremist movements both religious and secular' date=' the acts of a few should not be blamed on the whole. Certain factions of Islam, like certain factions of Christianity, like certain factions of secular ethnic groups (i.e. White Supremicists), like certain factions of idealogical groups can behave in extreme, violent ways.

 

Just because some anti-abortionists kill Planned Parenthood personnel is it right for me to assume all anti-abortionists feel the same?

 

Just because some white people have hung people because of the color of their skin is it right for me to assume all whites feel the same?

 

Just because some high school students have gone on rampages and shot up their schools and classmates is it right for me to assume all high school students feel the same?

 

I know the news is full of hate and violence and sex. The news is like the Jerry Springer Show. Please don't believe that the people you see sensationalized are representative of the whole. Racism and discrimination are part of the problem, not the solution.[/quote']

 

Phi, I understand what you are telling me, but its much, much more than just a few and thats what makes me afraid.

 

Bettina

All religions are warlike at somepoint or another. It's a natural state of the evolution. I think America should let it pan out as it would without a major super-power creating termoil in hopes of "protecting its assest's". All im saying is that the West can't judge a brutle religion because Christianity (or what have you) was once just as brutle.

You're right to fear the spread of those "barbaric" ways into America but that WILL NOT happen if we pull all our troops out and let them figure their stuff out.

 

-AweBurn

I might be wrong when I say this, but America didn't have a problem with the Islamic religion until Afganistan declared war on us. They flew planes into our buildings killing over 3000 people because they didn't like our way of life, our freedoms, our democracy, and our bikini clad women. To me, that was an act of war and when we ordered them to surrender their mastermind Bin Laden, they refused and backed up his works. They protected him so we went to war against Afganistan....which, to the mideast, is an attack on Islam itself.

What I find disgusting about the Islamics is the fact that they try to kill as many women and children as they can thru suicide bombings instead of trying to kill soldiers. To them, killing children must be a turn on as is beheading people. Sorry, but I see them as savages and barbarians.

Now, lets look at the news today when Iran, another backward place, is helping Hamas in Palestine. They will funnel millions for weapons to be used against Israelis because both Iran and Palestine want to "wipe Israel off the map".

So, are you willing to let the Iranians "sort things out themselves" ? Or do you think we should let them build nukes in the name of allah...and maybe give some to Hamas.

Awhile ago, in London, terrorist explosions blew up the subway stations. Many were killed, but a young man wrote four words on the palm of his hand and held it up high. It said "We are not afraid"....Well I'm not like that. I am afraid.

Bettina

What if a little girl killed someone? Should she then be killed?

 

I presume not' date=' but what if the person who killed the little girl killed her because he fell asleep at the wheel of a car?

 

Again, probably not, but what if a drug user killed the little girl while high?

 

This is getting more into your ballpark I think, even though the drug user may not have been mentally capable of knowing what he was doing. What if someone had slipped something into his drink, so taking the drugs wasn't his idea?

 

I suspect this puts him off the hook again. Now, what if the 'drugs' wheren't external but were some chemical imablance in his brain caused by a medical problem?

 

What if the chemical imbalance was caused not by a medical problem as such but by some external source, e.g. a beating?

 

--------------------------------------------------------------------------

 

What if the chemical imbalance was caused by the way the murderer was treated in his childhood?

 

The point I am trying to get at is that you need to feel empathy not just for the murdered child and her parents, but for everyone. Try and get to the root of why the bad thing happens and maybe you will not be so instantly judgemental.

 

Personally I don't think it is my place to judge anyone, about anything, because I am just as flawed as they are. And so are you.[/quote']

 

I took the liberty of putting a dotted line in your quote.....

 

Everything above the dotted line would get him life...maybe life in a mental institution like Andrea Yates should have. She, for example, does not belong in a regular prison, but removal from society is a given. Also, I don't know how to handle the little girl that kills. That would be a tough one and no, she wouldn't get life or death obviously.

 

Below the line, too bad, he gets the DP. There is no excuse for what happened to Jessica Lunsford no matter what upbringing he had. There are lots of people who have had a rough life, but they don't go out and kill little kids. You can't wait for god to judge. The killing has to stop and the only way I know is to send a message that if you rape and murder a little kid, you die. Period. I already said I would have empathy for him and I would have tears streaming down my face for him. But I would still pull the switch if it was my daughter or son.

 

And as far as me being flawed, read my empathic post. I'm the queen freak.

 

Bettina

Maybe Aussies are different' date=' but we accept that we don't kill our people. Period. We would rather pay to keep 9 absolute animals in prison than kill 1 innocent by mistake. Maybe we take the view that savage and barbarous societies do it and civilized ones don't. If you look at the list here, then you may notice that most of the nations that you would perhaps call "Civilized" are in the abolishionist category and included in the retentionist category are the very nations that you are calling savage and barbarous.

 

Unfortunately for you, the judge who sentenced him doesn't. He apparently now believes that he sentenced Morales based on false testimony. Link.

 

Something to keep in mind. Just because I oppose the DP doesn't mean I want to keep these scum alive. I really don't care about them that much. It's not that I want to keep them alive, I don't want my society to kill them. It has nothing to do with them, but everything to do with the way I want my society to operate. A subtle but important difference I think.

JohnB, you put me on a wild goose chase.

A: That link you provided dosn't show me where it says anything about false testimony. Morales openly admitted guilt in front of the judge for raping and killing a teenage girl for pleasure. Please show me what you meant.

B: The other link showing the countries I call barbarous and savage, and your comment above is proof that you have no idea what I'm talking about.

In answering my question, your only reasoning is that you do not want to make a mistake and kill an innocent man. I said, the man is not innocent. He has admitted guilt in killing a little girl for his own pleasure. There is no mistake here.

So are you saying your only reasoning is that "We do not kill our people"? Thats it? Thats all you would tell the mother?

I respect you for your convictions, but nothing on the face of this earth, no god, not people holding signs, would ever convince me to spare a person for killing a little girl...never, ever.

Bettina

It's not the religion thats at fault here. If you look to the history books' date=' people have abused religions left and right to accomplish a means that is entirely outside that which the religion preaches. I hope Bettina realizes this and doesn't whole-heartedly believe that we should stop the spread of the Islamic religion. If that were the case i suppose it would be equally plausible that she demand that Christianity be exterminated for its transgressions during the Crusades (which are the direct result for the Muslim hatred of the West now...don'cha know).

 

-AweBurn.[/quote']

 

I hope AweBurn realizes that I could care less about the now that was before. I am worried about the now thats now, and the now in question is caused by a warlike religion that is run by a bunch of murderous barbarians who think blowing up women and little kids is not only a sign of victory for Alla, but gets them bedded by virgins in the afterlife.

 

I don't see anything equally plausible....

 

Bettina

John' date=' I see war as a different thing. There is a difference between civillians getting caught in a crossfire and rounding them up and killing them.

 

Having said that, it would be wonderful if we could do away with war altogether, but I don't see it as possible in the near future. Until that day, we do as best we can and try to minimise the civillian casualties. This means not killing someone if we can avoid it. All DP sentences are avoidable.

 

Bettina, you haven't answered either question. Question 1 was; "What do you tell the parents?" Do you really think that "He didn't kill her so he shouldn't die" will wash with them? Will they be satisfied with your "Justice"?

 

If he had kidnapped her, committed the offense and then killed her in the first 3 hours, he gets the DP. If he keeps her for three weeks of torture and rape he doesn't. Again, how do [b']you[/b] explain this to the parents? What arguments will you use? Run the conversation through your mind.

 

You don't think there will be injustices in the future as well? DNA testing isn't perfect and it deals in probabilities. DNA tests don't say "X did it" they say that "The odds that X didn't do it are 1 in 50 million. We think that there are no more than 3 men in the US that this DNA could come from." There is a world of difference between these two statements.

 

So how do you tell the innocent's relatives? What are you going to say to them?

 

As an aside. I do like the way this debate has remained civil. I've seen others on this topic degenerate quickly.

JohnB

Your previous posts indicated to me that you are against the DP in any form and your question one was in two parts. Where I drew the line, and what I would tell the parents. I already answered the first part and thought the second part was answered by that.

In any event, I would simply tell the parents that justice was served. He is being locked up for life without parole which satisfys your feelings on the DP. The law in my scenario was "You kill the child, you die. Let her live, and you live". The parents may not like it, but that would be the law. I don't know how to clarify it any more than that, but to me, it removes the person from society... but just remember, it he killed her, he would get death. I have no moral problems with that at all.

As far as your comment on future injustices.... I'm not Henry Lee. I just don't know enough about how accurate DNA testing is.

There is a man in the news today, MIchael Morales, who has admitted guilt for kidnapping, raping, and murdering a 17 year old teenage girl for pleasure. Some people want to save him....I don't, I want him dead.

So, what are you willing to tell the mother of that girl, why you want to see this man live?

Bettina

So if he keeps her prisoner for 3 weeks raping and torturing the girl 5 times a day' date=' he still lives? Again, how do you explain to the girl's parents that she wasn't hurt [i']enough[/i]?

 

This does not answer the question of how you explain to the relatives of the innocent man killed how it happened.

 

Yes, 17 out of 176 prisoners on Death Row in Georgia(?) were exonerated of the crime for which they were convicted. The outgoing Governor commuted all death sentences to life because of the high rate of wrongful convictions.

 

Just so you know, I'm not trying to change your mind. I'm explaining why I changed mine. I found myself asking moral questions that I couldn't answer satisfactorily within the moral framework I had. So far, you haven't been able to answer them either. Think about it, that's all I ask.

 

And always remember that emotionally, you and I are in total accord.

 

Cheers.

I did answer those questions JohnB. We are not talking about past injustices to innocent people. I am talking about now, so there is no innocent man killed.

If he kills the girl he dies. If he tortures her for three weeks he gets life. I would wish him dead, but he didn't kill her so he lives.

I won't change my mind ever, and I know emotionally you and I are the same.

Bettina

Bettina, believe me you have caused me no offense. You passionately believe your POV and are arguing well for it. As I once did. I have no sympathy for the scum you referred to, my sympathies like yours are with the little girl and her family.

Bet all you want' date=' but you have no way to prove that statement. The DP would be why the crime rate in the US is so much lower than Australia's then. Oh wait, it isn't, is it? It doesn't act as a deterrent for the simple reason that when the offender is committing a crime, he/she doesn't believe they will get caught. If you think you'll get away with it, why would you worry about any possible sentence?

 

Add to that, if you're going to get death for the rape, you may as well make it rape/murder because then you are depriving the prosecution of their star witness. Personally I think a live victim is better than a dead one.

 

As I said, I once fought for your arguments. Two questions changed my mind, answer them if you can.

 

1. Where do you draw the line? And how do you explain to the victim's family that their loved one wasn't hurt enough to go over that line? You ask me to imagine the little girl, well run that conversation through your mind a few times and see how you would feel.

 

2. How do you make restitution after you find out you've executed the wrong person? Given that no system devised by humans will be perfect, then you have to accept that you will kill innocent people. Perhaps you could tell me how you would explain that one to the family. Because I sure as hell couldn't. Add to that, if you don't care about killing the innocents, then exactly how are you better than the guilty?

 

[/quote']

 

I see what you mean about detterent. Your right. It wouldn't work if he thinks he can get away with it and they all do.

 

Answer to question 1.... Easy and without gray areas. Maybe you missed what I once said. I would not hand down the DP if he lets the little girl or boy live so he would get life instead. Raping is one thing, murder is another. If the little girl lives, so does he.

 

Answer to question 2.... I'm talking about the pedophiles that have admitted guilt like Joe Smith (Carlie Brusia 11), John Evander Couey (Jessica Lunsford 9), Michael Briere (Holly Jones 10). I have a big list if you care to see it.

 

In some cases where the killer refuses to admit guilt, but his semen has been found "deep inside" the girl, his fingerprints and dna all over her, coupled with him being a known sex offender, and other incriminating evidence, would be enough to convince me to execute him.

 

"Beyond the shadow of a doubt" is much more valid today with dna testing than it was years ago without it. We have actually freed people today because of dna testing, and so, if I find his dna inside a little girl, he's dead.

 

Bettina

The big question is: Why do people want to believe in these things? Why do people need these beliefes and when you can show that they are are being faked, they will just change their beliefs to something else?

Because some people have a need to believe in something. They would follow god or jesus if he was here, but he's not so they turn to the next person with the right charisma. They believe Popoff, or people like him, are gifted people who may help them.

Some people, for example, are sick and are looking for a cure that doctors can't give them and when word gets around that this person has the "gift" and can cure them, they come running. I don't blame them because I don't feel what they feel.

When I sing in church, I know for a fact that some people come just to see and hear me and I know that if I put on a show, I would be like Popoff. The difference between me an him is character. I could never do that.

Its sad really.

Bettina

http://www.aip.org/pnu/2005/split/757-1.html

 

the American Institute of Physics online "Physics News Update"

publishes an annual list of top physics stories' date=' with links.

 

quite a few these links have further links to graphics/animations

like if you check out the "molecules that walk" story

http://www.aip.org/pnu/2005/split/751-2.html

it gives a movie link at the bottom

http://www.chem.ucr.edu/groups/bartels/

 

this year PNU has about 20 top stories.[/quote']

 

Thank you Martin for running my printer dry. I'll have to wait till tommorrow for another cartridge. Meanwhile thanks for the articles. I've just started reading about entanglement now anyway, though skeptical, I'm still reading it.

 

Btw...have you seen this? I can't wait.

 

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/10510773/site/newsweek/

 

Bettina

I watched the whole thing and it was great!

But that was a dirty trick on the tonight show. What I saw was a magician who was being asked to reveal his secrets. He had a clever cover, but a magician was all he was. So I thought it was a bit unfair what Carson did to him. However, I never heard of Uri Geller.

The Peter Popoff ministries reminded me of the movie "Leap of Faith" with Steve Martin. He acted just like that character. People who take money like that should be ashamed of themselves. They prey on people looking for help.

Bettina

Cheer up - maybe some day they will choose people to flick the switch on pedophile's electric chairs by state lottery! You still have a chance!

I'm assuming sarcasm in your quote so:

I want the parents of the girl he killed to have first options to pull the switch. Only if they opt out would I want the state lottery.

But in any event, would you be there to defend the beast?

Bettina

Edit: Another thing to continue with the OP.... Look at the news today about how much killing is going on over that cartoon, and look at the million dollar reward to kill the cartoonist. What a treacherous religion Islam is.