Greatest I am

Your link speaks of observation and experiment as the rule for science. In the beginning, man had to experiment with various foods and observe if he lived through it or not. That is science as described today. As to my agenda, it is to try to convert theists away from their silly beliefs. Theists are the one's causing damage. I am more appreciated where atheists are actually trying to do the same thing. If those here are not doing the same elsewhere, then to my mind, they are not doing their duty to society. We are all our brothers keeper. Self defense demands it. Regards DL Like so? I have done this before and someone told me there was a better way. Regards DL

Moontanman First. I cannot get the quote function to work for me. Second. I was speaking of my wife and I swearing to telepathy. Not to finding the Godhead. I was alone in that one. As to whether the courts would believe us, I don’t really care. I have no agenda or dogma to sell. As to the scientific method and trial and error. Have you heard of any discoveries that did not include trial and error. I have not and you are quite short sighted if you think our scientific method was that much different in principle from what the ancients were using. Regards DL A Tripolation. Quote We attest to the reality of an experience, not that we or I can replicate it at will. Then what use is the whole thing? FMPOV, it is our vehicle, so to speak, to our next evolutionary step. What use is it FYPOV, the same as your earlobes or remnants of your tail bone. Quote In fact, since I consider it an assault, and think there may be shields against it if I can use that term, then replication is likely impossible. ...what? My wife tells me that it felt like an assault. After much discussion and thought, I speculate that we may be able to shield ourselves from such communication. It is quite invasive and we may have developed a mental block along with the ability. Regards DL

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=61295LAfQmo http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=2569440864215926514# As to prophesy. If God is forced to follow prophesy, then he has no free will. IMO, any that read scriptures as the words of a God are fools. God would not create talking snakes and donkeys. If he did, where are they. After all, the bible prophesizes that the taliking snake would be with us forever. Regards DL

Miracles certainly would support any religion that had someone to do them. Fact is, none do. Even as Jesus says that anyone with true faith can do miracles but you will note that no miracles are being done. What evidence do you see that makes you think Christianity is not just another scam? The bible can easily be shown to be man made and full of errors, contradictions and forgeries. Jesus the great example is contradicted by scripture. Scripture says he is to be our scapegoat, dying for our sins, yet he himself tells us to be the scapegoat for others. Dogma says that Jesus is the only one whose sacrifice is sufficient to save yet he says we can do the saving ourselves. All it takes is repentance. Repentance and forgiveness changes your perpective quite a bit. It does show a universalist God but most Christians are way to tribal in their thinking to allow it. They love to hate too much to not allow forgiveness and compasion to rule God's thinking. They must have a hell for all the other tribes. Regards DL Early? 85 years after Jesus and all witnesses are dead. Give me a break. Regards DL

Moontanman “So all the evidence you have is your wife confirmed it? Interesting I admit but hardly conformation.” Strange that evidence that any court in the land would accept, you would not. “We live in the first and only civilization based on science” The way I look at society, we and the ancients have used science from day one. In the beginning, how did we learn what to eat and how to act to survive. By observation and trial and error. Rudimentary science and technology for sure. Science never the less. ====================================================== Brainteaserfan “Most Biblical literalists do not disagree with science” Yes they do and the caveat you give shows exactly why. Science is showing what nature and physics are and what laws control them, so to say they believe in it, except for their God being able to breach them, shows clearly that they do not believe in science and physics. Their atoms are held together by God, not natural physical forces. BTW, you clam an experience like mine. It was not. If it was you would be a universalist and not a Christian. Knowing the mind of God, you would know that none are lost. “If you were God, how would you carry out population control? “ To think that a God would not build in all the necessary requirements to his perfect systems shows lack of faith in those system if they have to be continuously tweaked. Does the God you know not get things right the first time around? Do you see us as his make work project. If you look at man within nature, we are doing exactly what our instincts tell us to do. “No, I am not saying that a religious government is good (although I believe it is). Need I say more? ================================================ A Tripolation “...one person is not considered an affirmation by scientific standards. You would have to replicate this, many times, under a controlled, monitored environment.” I agree. This testimony from two people is not trying to confirm a scientific method. The testimony of both of us is more of a proof for law than science. We attest to the reality of an experience, not that we or I can replicate it at will. In fact, since I consider it an assault, and think there may be shields against it if I can use that term, then replication is likely impossible. “Or I would have at least created a perfect world. Not this one plagued with evil.” If you need it, I can link you to where it is shown that the markers for evil, such as slavery and violent crimes, that you hint that the world id full of, are actually the best they have ever been. The world is not basically evil. It is basically good. Yes. In fact without God ending his hiding phase and stepping up to be questioned about his attributes, we cannot know his attributes. Regards DL

That being the case, I hope you read more cautiously. He said--”I would hope someone would hospitialize me if I convinced myself that telepathy existed.” Right after I tell him that if my wife had not confirmed that telepathy is real, then I would not have given any veracity to my contact with the cosmic consciousness. I did not convince myself. My wife did. Before you have at me, you might want to get the latest from http://www.noetic.org/ I think they are at the forefront of that research at the moment. Regards DL As stated. Without confirmation, I would not have accepted telepathy as real. You might also remember that I do not consider the cosmic consciousness a deity. It is a part of nature that most just have not found yet. Regards DL

I agree. Marat spoke well. Quite the mind there. As to your last, if the thief will laugh away secular moral conduct then he would laugh harder at anyone who would invoke a God watching over him. Regards DL

For both you and A Tripolation. The cosmic consciousness is accessed through telepathy. Another un-proven concept. Why do I believe my personal experience to have a basis in reality? Because I did it twice. The first time with my wife and the second time with the cosmic consciousness. Without my wife as a witness to the reality of telepathy, I would not give any veracity to my second experience. If either of you think you can somehow make me disbelieve my own senses, and my wife, you are both wrong and spinning your wheels. Regards DL A Tripolation Well thought out but it still does nopt refute--- "It is demonstrable that things cannot be otherwise than as they are; for as all things have been created for some end, they must necessarily be created for the best end.” This same sentence or sentiment could just as easily and accurately have been made by Darwin when he found and studied the Galapagos Islands. He found an environment that was evolving as perfectly as it could given the conditions at hand. This can be said of all life that exists everywhere. Regards DL You say this after saying this--- "In an attempt to show you that you are just as much an illogical person as the people in the "Abrahamic Cults". Once would be informative of your stance. You are hounding me on it and showing you trying to force it down my throat. Regards DL

Jesus literalist. What would change your mind? Many books on Jesus and Christianity have come out of late questioning the historicity and source of both Jesus and the gospels. Most of these come down on the negative side of Jesus being real or of scripture coming from the apostles. All who believe in Jesus and scripture must read the Bible literally, to some extent. After all, what other book give Jesus historicity or literal existence? None. There is not one historical secular document that I know of that indicates that some miracle working Jesus ever existed. The Bible begins with a talking serpent and other miracles that defy nature and physics.. This should be warning enough, for anyone who can think independently that the Bible should not be read literally. Alas, this clear message is lost on some believers . Most scholars know that the Bible is myth and can be read in a variety of ways. As allegory, myth or literal. They choose not to read it literally as that would mean that they would have to believe in fantasy miracles and magic. Most will not take that leap of faith. The Catholic pope and most mainstream Abraham protestant religions say not to read the Bible literally but as stated above, they must read some of it literally to believe that Jesus actually existed. They do not seem to follow their own advise. As a follower of a real historic Jesus, do you recognize that you are a literalist? How deeply do you believe in fantasy, miracles and magic? As an adult, do you see your fantastic beliefs as those of a healthy mind? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JDbesQQi9yc What would it take for you to change your mind about fantasy, miracles and magic being real? These are required for you to believe in a real historic Jesus. Keeping Jesus divine in our minds may discourage some in trying to follow his lead. Is there something that would change your mind or start you seeing Jesus as an archetypal good man that we are to emulate? Regards DL

I tend to call what I believe in a Godhead, just to show a difference to the word God. I generally indicate that it is a cosmic consciousness and not a miracle working super God. I say it is a part of nature, not nature. You are also a part of nature and are sentient. So is the Godhead. I have admitted to not having proof and do not push for belief by anyone and prefer to speak to morals. Why are you bothering to question what I cannot prove? Without you believing me, we go into the same speculative nonsense that this O P is about. Regards DL Yes. All thoughs will flow from how we see reality. Not just of the world but of the whole of our universe. The anthopic principle indicates that all things are the only way it can be and thus can be called perfect. Not the finished type of perfect but an evolving perfection as all things evolve. Observation of any life here on earth, I think makes this quote true. Candide "It is demonstrable that things cannot be otherwise than as they are; for as all things have been created for some end, they must necessarily be created for the best end.” Not created by design but only by the happenstance of evolution. This condition , I think in part, is what gave rise to I D. Unfortunately, those who saw this perfection in creation took a leap of faith and put their sentient God in the gap instead of just plain old nature. What do you see when you look about? A perfectly evolving system, or a system that is somehow defective? Remember that things are the only way they can be. Regards DL Then the question becomes, by whose standard and the answer is some absentee God whose instructions are unclear and contradictory. We still end up without a guide except for man. Since all we know of God is what man has said, then the obvious conclusion is that man is supreme here and the only God we have to please. Regards DL

It would be nice yes, but while religions are still doing much damage to society, I do not think those who oppose them should relent. For evil to grow, all good men need do is nothing. Regards DL I have agreed that I do not believe in a supreme deity or the supernatural as well, so if you are silly enough to keep repeating yourself to me, that is your problem. There is nothing in my belief system that goes beyond nature. Regards DL

There is historicity to Jesus only if you want to suspend your logic and reason and go to belief in fantasy, miracles and magic and also think it a good idea to punish the innocent instead of the guilty via a blood sacrifice. As to why I am in religious discussion boards. I have a responsibility to correct those who are not thinking right. Why? It is my view that all literalists and fundamentals hurt all of us who are Religionists. They all hurt their parent religions and everyone else who has a belief. They make us all into laughing stocks and should rethink their position. There is a Godhead but not the God of talking animals, genocidal floods and retribution. Belief in fantasy is evil. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5HKHaClUCw4&feature=PlayList&p=5123864A5243470E&index=0&playnext=1 They also do much harm to their own. African witches and Jesus http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MlRG9gXriVI&feature=related Jesus Camp 1of 9 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fOqGhcwwE1s Promoting death to Gays. For evil to grow my friends, all good people need do is nothing. Fight them when you can. Regards DL Rather a reversal of what I see as reality. That would excuse them I guess. Secular law does make exceptions for those who are not quite all there. Only to those who see Eden as the fall of man. Those like myself who read it as man's elevation will think we can think like Gods. At least at the moral level because in Genesis, God himself, in the myth at least, tells us we, like A & E, can become as Gods, knowing good and evil. Regards DL ============================================================================ Marat Well and eloquently stated. Regards DL

Not quite sure what you mean. There is evidence of Bibles yes. I have one. There is no evidence of anything within the Bible though if that is what you meant. If there is evidence in the Bible of anything, please show it. Regards DL Any true believers are conspicuous in their absence just like their absentee God is. Jesus tells us how they should be able to show themselves yet none will step up to move the mountain of 6 million people that starve to death yearly. So much for believers caring for their neighbors. This is how a true Christian show his faith. You might note that there is no one on earth with faith. If there was, we would all know it. They would act. Matthew 17:20 And Jesus said unto them, Because of your unbelief: for verily I say unto you, If ye have faith as a grain of mustard seed, ye shall say unto this mountain, Remove hence to yonder place; and it shall remove; and nothing shall be impossible unto you. Mark 16:17-18. And these signs shall follow them that believe; In my name shall they cast out devils; they shall speak with new tongues; 16:18 They shall take up serpents; and if they drink any deadly thing, it shall not hurt them; they shall lay hands on the sick, and they shall recover. Regards DL

In the Abrahamic cults, can it be said that a book that begins with a talking snake, a God who would demand the sacrifice of Abraham’s son in the middle and ends with a seven headed monster, is a good foundation? Regards DL

IIncedia My speculation has concluded that what the ancients called the soul was really our subconscious minds. That aside, because it is likely wrong, the ancients did believe in a state of going into the spirit. Trances and such. Much of scripture was written by those who claimed to be in the spirit when revelation was given. My experience of this, no proof of course, is that what they called going into the spirit was what we today would call telepathic contact with who they thought was God. i call it my apotheosis. I also have no proof that telepathy is real, but to me, the word soul now just means a way to communicate with God. Again, to me, this bible God guy is not the God I believe in. The Godhead I found was more of a cosmic consciousness. It is the repository of all consciousness’ that have--uploaded --- to it. Seems that we all upload at some point in time. No choice. Regards DL

Yet Jesus did not officially join the Trinity till, what, 300 odd years after his death. Constantine gave life to the Trinity by basically shoving it down Christianities throat. Originally Posted by animefan48 Well, the reality is most Christians do buy into the trinity doctrine because of persecution of the early Gnostics and non-Trinitarians, and the religious councils were dissenters were forced to agree to a Trinitarian theology. Many Unitarian and Universalist theologies argue that when Jesus said he was the way, he meant that he was an example of how to live to be united/reunited with God. As for the name, God does give other names for himself including the Alpha and Omega, as well as some believe a name that should not be written (or even spoken I believe). Honestly, I think using the name I Am That I Am would just be confusing and convoluted, seriously. I seriously do not believe that it is a continuation of Gnostic/mystical/Unitarian suppression. Even the Gnostic and mystical traditions within Islam and Christianity do not tend to use that name, and among the 99 Names of Allah, I did not find that one. Also, many Rastafarians believe that the Holy Spirit lives in humans and will sometimes say I and I instead of we, yet they don't seem to use the name I Am for God/Jah either, so I really don't think it can be related to suppressing mystical and Gnostic interpretations. I think that originally oppressing those ideas and decreeing them heretical are quite enough, the early Church did such a good job that after the split many Protestant groups continued to condemn mystical and later Gnostic sects and theologies. Yup, the bishops voted and it was settled for all time!!1 (Some say the preliminary votes were 150 something to 140 something in favor of the trinity) But then Constantine stepped in: After a prolonged and inconclusive debate, the impatient Constantine intervened to force an end to the conflict by demanding the adoption of the creed. The vote was taken under threat of exile for any who did not support the decision favored by Constantine. (And later, they fully endorsed the trinity idea when it all happened again at the council of Constantinople in AD 381, where only Trinitarians were invited to attend. Surprise! They also managed to carry a vote in favor of the Trinity.) http://home.pacific.net.au/~amaxwell/bdigest/bd12bbs.tx Regards DL

Are all discussions of God speculative nonsense? Many quote God’s WORD as coming from God’s own mind somehow yet that same WORD says that God is unknowable, unfathomable and mysterious. That same WORD is full of contradictions which may help demonstrate that God truly does work in mysterious, illogical ways. Those who say they know the mind of God, lie, if the Bible is to be believed. According to it, God is un-knowable. Many claim a personal relationship to their God yet few will admit apotheosis. Are you/they lying if no actual personal contact has occurred? Are all discussions, of any God, just speculative nonsense, or can a man actually know something of God’s thinking? Are we all just spinning our wheels in discussions. Regards DL

Yes. Yours does not include purpose while mine does. The fact that you did not speak to my points show that you cannot justify yours. Better to shovel coal in hell than to spend eternity watching friends, neighbors and our children in torture and flame forever. Without purpose. Regards DL

If they did not know right from wrong, then it was wrong of God to punish them. A just God would punish to change attitudes and actions. To punish without these in mind is just purposeless torture and not any kind of justice at all. Do you punish your children if no benefit is to be gained? As to earning punishment. Punishment with a purpose perhaps but not if it serves no purpose. Punishment is usually given to change ideas, attitudes and actions of a sinner. If punishment is given for any other reason, then it is being given without an altruistic purpose and would be given out of a sense of cruelty. Does hell serve the purpose above? If so, to continue to torture a repented soul is not just. If not then it is cruelty that is motivating the eternal torture. Better to shovel coal in hell than to spend eternity watching friends, neighbors and our children in torture and flame forever. Only a sick mind would conceive of such a situation or wish it upon anyone. That is why God would not do such because then, heaven would be hell. If those in heaven did not go insane then they could not have once been human or good. You should think of hell just a bit and recognize that God would not create such an immoral construct. Regards DL

We all have our styles and all do the best we can with what we have. Two things that I would point out. Any that dare question religion will get shit on. I have seen the loving type buried in it as well as my type so I will just follow my bliss. As to fundamental or literal beliefs. I would point out that any that believe in Jesus must read scriptures literally to some extent and all of them have fallen to belief in fantasy, miracles and magic. To my way of thinking, they are all just as foolish as those who believe in talking animals. After all, they have to believe in a God who would covet another man's woman, a sin, and impregnate his own mother with himself via invisible flying sperm. Incest. How droll. I leave it to others to be gentle with those, who as shown with my links above, are abusing children and promoting hate. If that kind of thing does not set you off then you are not a moral person. Regards DL

Thanks for this. There was always something to do with timing. Even the trial. It has been speculated that all of the events that supposedly happened, the quick trial and gathering the judges and making the presentation to the Romans etc, just could not have happened that quickly. Regards DL

Firstly. I write more for the lurkers than those who are likely to respond. Those are the ones who will likely think of the issues as opposed to the more literal or fundamental who will try to refute my position. Seconly. I bother because I care for my fellow man. Believe it or not, and think it evil for us not to correct poor thinking. It is my view that all literalists and fundamentals hurt all of us who are Religionists. They all hurt their parent religions and everyone else who has a belief. They make us all into laughing stocks and should rethink their position. There is a Godhead but not the God of talking animals, genocidal floods and retribution. Belief in fantasy is evil. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5HKHaClUCw4&feature=PlayList&p=5123864A5243470E&index=0&playnext=1 They also do much harm to their own. African witches and Jesus http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MlRG9gXriVI&feature=related Jesus Camp 1of 9 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fOqGhcwwE1s Promoting death to Gays. For evil to grow my friends, all good people need do is nothing. Fight them when you can. If you do not, what does that say about you? Regards DL I would never vote to make prostitution illegal, as in the West, most of these people are there because of past abuses, mostly in the home, and I would not add to that abuse. At the same time, I think prostitution to be a blemish on any society. Sure, many are in it just for the money but it is still human trafficking and placing a dollar figure on humans. We cannot say we venerate human life while at the same time putting a price on it. It is like the death penalty in some states and countries. Can they be seen as venerating life while killing it. I do not think so. Regards DL

We incarcerate for self protection. God has no need of protection. If we, like God, could know what is in the perpetrators heart and know that he has repented and changed his attitude, it would be foolish for us to continue to incarcerate. If your God does, then he is not only foolish but senselessly cruel. Regards DL It gets worse. A & E are not shown as having any doubt of God being God, yet Christian dogma, not Jewish dogma, still shows then ignoring his command to stay as dumb as the lesser animals. Christians see that as our fall yet the Jews thought of it as our elevation. Regards DL

In the beginning, the temple resembled a hoar house. In studying ancient history of the advances of technology used in temples, and knowing that the first prostitutes were temple prostitutes, and also knowing that alcohol and psychotropic drug use was common, I tried to envision the reality of just what the temple and early religion was all about. We generally envisage a large building that held many but in truth, the early churches where more like the home churches used today in smaller communities. I think they may have begun as places of worship but to early man, worship looked quite different than it does today. Churches latter expanded along with the populations and used the latest technology to draw the crowd and the best technology and God would win the hearts of the patrons. These patrons were mostly poor people and for them to be persuaded to part with their hard earned wealth took the best effort that science and persuasion powers of the priests could muster. The temple then, by the time Jesus came along to throw his temper tantrum, was a place of commerce, theatre for myth reading, partying and prostitution. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_prostitution http://www.truthcontest.com/entries/the-present-with-religion/belief-truth-fantasy-reality.html Just how important the theology of whatever God was worshipped we can never know. We can assume, because of the vast number of Gods that their theology was not important to them as they changed from one God to the other. We can know that the wealth that the temples amassed was earned with methods, that many today, would consider rather odious. They were more like carnivals, speak easies and hoar houses. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sacred_prostitution There is a hint in the following-- http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=1%20Corinthians+6&version=KJV where the writer seems to be bemoaning the use of these various delights yet not quite calling them illegal. Even when I was young, the small local church was where I learned of drinking, partying and key clubs. It was rumored that every church had a key club but I have no direct proof of this last. Drinking and drugs though, I can vouch for. From such is where our, ever so proper moral religions were born. From what we today would call immoral activity. Sacrifice, indulgences, fees for drink and drugs and prostitution gave birth to religion and financed what we have today. Was religion born of what we would call corruption? Were the ancient battles between churches just what we would call turf wars for wealth and the various magic tricks that the churches used to compete with each other? Today, with religions that are based on fantasy, miracle and magic, are priests just doing the same Flim-Fam job on believers for their wealth? IOW. Are priests just con artists? http://www.megavideo.com/?d=3D3511DE Regards DL

Memory fails me. Was Jesus crucified on the Sabbath? Jews could not work on the Sabbath and the Romans did not have that restrictions. Regards DL