Greatest I am

A really hard question on Satan and deception. You all know that I always have answers for everything but these ones have me stumped. That or Satan is deceiving me. How could I know? If angels have free will, why has one never shown themselves? There are apparently good angels and evil angels that have been renamed as demons. If either of these showed itself, we could not distinguish it from God himself. No one has ever seen God. Would we accept it as God and be deceived? After all, it is said by God that Satan has the power to deceive the whole world. Knowing this, and knowing that most of the world belongs to one religion or another. It follows that most people in these religions have been deceived. How then can believers be so sure that they follow the right God? As scripture indicates that most if not all will be following the wrong God thanks to deception. Are you somehow immune to Satan, who can deceive the whole world? If atheists are deceived, then there really is a God. If believers are deceived, then there really is no God. If a believer, how do you get around this catch 22. Are morals the only good way around it? If so, then if you are a believer that believes that Sodom or the genocide of Noah’s day is good justice, does that mean that you have been deceived? Because on the face of it, since non believers are a minority and think it evil, then you, as part of the majority and think it good, must be wrong. Is genocide then a good thing or an evil thing? Careful, you have definitely been deceived if God was right. Satan has deceived you. Regards DL

moo I basically share your view. I see the bible in the same way I see all the older books of religion. All were intended to be books of wisdom. Like you say, sometimes your have to denounce the morality it shows to end up seeing the wisdom in it. It is a good book for stimulating thought. It is not quite a fairy tale but all fairy tales have good moral values in them. Or they try to in any case. Regards DL

I like the idea of men putting fear in God's heart. If only that God actually existed to feel it. Regards DL What is to doubt in the Bible? Everything to me. Nothing to those who believe it to be the WORD of God.. Here again a theist would just deny this and say that man was getting uppity and needed a good dose of God’s wrath. Theists are quite enamored by God’s wrath. They are trained to fear God. At least the dominion angle leads to other issues that I can tie them up in knots with. They bob and weave out of those knots of course but never in a logical way. You underestimate theists and how they can bob and weave and delude themselves. God would be talking to his angels of course. To a theist that assumption is iron clad. Regards DL

This I doubt as I am sure that if the ancients wanted to build anything to reach the sky, they would have started on a high plateau and not in the low lands. Further, who has dominion over the earth?Did God not give man dominion? If so, God lost all rights to tell man what to do. If he did not IYO, then the Bible lies. Actually, there was nothing better out there that I could find otherwise I would have complicated the O p a bit. Regards DL Moo Thanks for that. I will not know if I agree with the morals of this story till I have a better idea of what it is. I am with you though on the immorality of most of what bible God does. Regards DL

Why did God divide the people of Babel? I know that most here do not believe this myth. There are usually some moral reason given for God acting against mankind. I cannot dither out any good moral reason for Babel. Can you? Regards DL

There can only be one king in a country and one dominion. His. He can delegate authority for sure but nothing should be without his say so. God spoke of dominion. Not partial or shared. Full dominion. Regards DL

I explained it. Read again for the first time. Regards DL

Whose interpretation of the O T takes precedent. I E. The Jews who wrote the O T call Eden our elevation, while Christianity interprets it as our fall. Who is correct and has authority over the O T? In the N T, Paul does not agree with james on faith virsus deeds. Which is correct in your self interpreting book? DL ------------------------------------- nath88 You say Jesus led an exemplary life. I do not agree. His example of vicarious redemption is a completely immoral act. To teach that the murder of an innocent man is a good way for others to shed their responsibilities for sin is a miscarriage of justice. The guilty should pay their dues. Not the innocent. Regards DL

Quite the contradiction there. If we all get a chance then God is not restricted to giving it to only those he wants. Your theology breaks down everywhere you post. Do try to think before you write. Regards DL

The only way!!! You limit your God. Tsk tsk. Sripture also refutes your claim but you do not care about scriptures to begin with. Regards DL Justice delayed is justice denied. If your God is stupid enough to let satan, who can deceive the whole world run free after God created his prison, then he is insane. A farmer does not put the fox in the chicken coop unless he wants his chickens eaten. If that is the case with your God, then he is just as big a fool as scriptures make him out to be. Your last make s your God an Indian giver and this makes you proud of him. Yuk. Regards. DL

My reply was directly against his preaching for the notion of us to try to profit from the murder of an innocent man. Quite an immoral stance. You might check what prompts a reply, not just the reply. Regards DL

A good reason for stabilizing a socio economic demographic pyramid is to end waste at the bottom. In human terms, that means saving about 10 million wasted lives a year through pooverty related causes, and take perhaps 1 billion up a notch in standard of living. Regards DL Well put. It may be that the rich cannot take more responsibility unless forced to do so. What the rich cause is to some extent not in their control. It happens inadvertently and not in a conscious control. Regards DL True but the engine runs on borrowing and lending. Regards DL

You say that God did not want slaves of A & E and wanted them to use their free will. You are aware are you not of God's sissy fit the first time A & E did do their will and not God's. Damed right he wants slaves. As to your Jesus scapegoat. It is not moral to profit from the murder of an innocent man. Keep thinking you should and you are going to end in hell. Regards DL

Do you blame people for not following the guidance and laws from your God? Hell, they are quite barbaric. He tells us to follow his genocidal ways and even kills his own son for a ransom that he himself set. Your God is insane. Will you follow him that far? If so, then you need a shrink. Regards DL

I So many strangers to watch for . Quite the riddle the Bible plays. Yet your God keeps hiding in the bushes. Regards DL

Yes. And reject a God who is such a loser. You will note how God does better elsewhere. You can make that book of myths say almost anything. 2 Peter 3:9 KJ The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance. None are ever lost to God. A true God would have it no other way. Regards DL

There is no economic crisis. The news is full of hysteria and dread as to how much of a an economic crisis the world is in. Rome trembles. So to speak. I submit that it is all part of the social manipulation that is at work on us by the media. They only focus on the debtors and ignore the lenders. These lenders are in actual control of the economy. If mankind wants to end the so called economic crisis, all mankind need do is rein in those run away rich lenders. Let us not forget, those nations in debt; Greece comes to mind, should also be made to come to heel on it‘s extravagances. Woe to the rich. The tax man cometh. If there were an actual economic crisis, it would be the lenders in the news and not the debtors. Regards DL

God. Profit from Murder and Genocide? Get serious. When reading the Bible, the facts show God as setting a ransom for forgiving man. That ransom was Jesus. God then sets the conditions to have Jesus murdered. Thus is how all sins, for all of eternal time, are forgiven. God does not do anything half way. After all, He would not want to break his own word and sin again. Eze 18:20 The soul that sinneth, it shall die. The son shall not bear the iniquity of the father, neither shall the father bear the iniquity of the son: the righteousness of the righteous shall be upon him, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon him. Psa 49:7 None of them can by any means redeem his brother, nor give to God a ransom for him. Father God screwed up and he is having his son Jesus bear the iniquity that he himself created. An insane act. No sane God would waste a son so needlessly. This is obvious I think to most. This is the conclusion that one must come to, if we make Jesus part of the Trinity. This is unacceptable, as God would not murder his son. This kills the Trinity notion. Otherwise, God Goes straight to hell for murder. As above, so below. The believers duty is to follow God’s example. The first commandment. If you would NOT do such, ( murder your own son ), and you are of the Abraham religions, then you are not a true follower. You have placed yourself above God. Rather a catch 22. The genocide of Noah’s day would also be an example of God profiting from murder. At a wholesale price. It boils down to God having a reality that he did not like, to a position of God having a reality that he liked better. Strangely, some even say that God does not change. The God that I know does not work that way. If your God does, and you follow this God, you should question why you do. To follow your God, you would have to be willing to kill your own children, as well as use genocide on the rest of mankind, as you follow an unfathomable, impossible to understand, alien God. How does that make you feel? Poorly I hope. Does it make you want to trade in your God for a new and improved model? One who will not ask you to go insane with him. All that just because he found something that he did not create. Iniquity. This, God had to learn as he had not known it was in him. Regards DL

This tells me that you cannot refute the premise and have run from an actual discussion. I have seen what you had to offer elsewhere and would not learn anything from what you have to say in the first place. I also see that you do not wish to learn. Regards DL Exactly the point. He is enforcing his law but his law is not the law of the land. Man’s law is the law of the land since man has sovereignty here. Not God. He gave it up. England gave India back it’s sovereignty. What do you think the Indians would do if England decided to return whenever they want, and where their laws conflict with the Indian one, decided to impose their rules and punishments? You know quite well what would happen. War. Yet you would have man just roll over when God does it. What difference. When a judge punishes a criminal, is that not part of the process of enforcing the law. Certainly it is. It begins with a police arrest and ends in a sentence when the person is found guilty. That is not obvious at all. He would have to stop hiding wherever he is. Do you see his form of free choice -----do things my way or burn forever----as a true free unhindered choice. It is a threat demanding compliance. Then he should not threaten us with hell. Only if you deny that he gave man dominion here. Is that what you are doing? Would you really like to live under the laws of your God? Regards DL

God gave up the right to punish along with dominion. God, in Eden, gave man dominion over the whole earth and all the entities on it. Some also believe that Satan was given dominion here. If the temptation of Jesus is believed to have literally happened then this supports the notion that Satan has dominion or the temptation was a farce that Jesus would have seen through. He did not deny Satan’s dominion. If God gave dominion to man and it was somehow transferred to Satan, then God would have giving up any right that he would have to punish anyone here because he does no longer had dominion here. As above so below indicates that if he can punish us and basically usurp the sovereignty of Satan or man, then this policy is what man should follow. This says that some other country coming to enforce their laws in our countries, would be allowed and proper. I cannot see any country allowing this and if they cannot, then God also cannot. God is shown quite often as coming to earth and enforcing his laws. Sodom and the genocide in Noah’s day are prime examples of his doing so. My covenant I will not break, nor alter the word that has gone out of my lips. —Psalm 89:34 Who has dominion on earth? Does God have a right to enforce his law? If so, why? If not, then is he breaking his own word? Regards DL

Atheists revenge. Persecution of theists. This was written in response to a theist crying about non theists attacking theists. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q_QXpzxj3Dc&feature=player_embedded#! Do you want a free ride to abuse whomever you like? Is reciprocity not fair play? Is fighting brain washing with brainwashing not fair? To suggest that non theist should not fight what is demonstrably evil is to ask good men to do nothing while evil is allowed to grow. Religions have persecuted the non religious and now bitch when thinking people show that faith without facts is for fools and that theists theologies do not hold water. Faith is defined as a firm belief in something for which there is no proof. Faith must trample under foot all reason, sense, and understanding. Reason is a whore, the greatest enemy that faith has. Martin Luther What is more valuable? A belief that has nothing to back it up or a belief based on reason, logic and proofs? As to non believers persecuting someone with belief, this does not happen from what I can see. Ridicule, yes. Humor, yes. Logic and reason, yes. Anger when illogical answers are given, yes. I see this from the POV of a religionist in the non believer camp because I cannot abide by what other religionists are doing. Bottom line. Persecution is demonstrably a religious tool. Not a non believers tool. Non theist engage theists, not for any negative reasons, but only from what most non believers see as their duty to their fellow man against divisive tribal forces, led by absentee Gods with demonstrably poor morals. Do believers really believe that non believers let evils like you see below grow? African witches and Jesus http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MlRG9gXriVI&feature=related Jesus Camp 1of 9 Promoting death to Gays. Not if atheists and non believers of all stripes maintain their social conscious and duty to their fellow man. That same social conscience that is lacking in far to many black theist hearts. Non theists are the ones fighting for the protection of children’s minds, fighting the denial of equality for women and fighting to end theist persecution of Gays. If you as a theist do not recognize what non believers and those of faith who come against you do so for benevolent purposes, then your dogmas, indoctrination and brainwashing has blinded you the same way you want to blind your children. This is from one who is not an atheist but one of your own who has rejected your views for a more sane and moral one. You are calling good evil and evil good as you embrace your genocidal son murdering God who, with his pocket full of miracles, could have taken the moral high ground instead of usurping Satan’s role as the most evil entity known to man. Theist and religions are going down for the count. Sane and moral people are onto you so you may as well get used to crying and complaining and bitching because your days are numbered. Isaiah 5:20 Woe unto them that call evil good, and good evil; that put darkness for light, and light for darkness; that put bitter for sweet, and sweet for bitter! God said that the high would be brought low and the low high. Religion has been flying high, drunk with the power of their tyrannical Gods and putting fear of a non existent God in in the hearts of sane men to quiet them. There are finally enough sane people around who will not stand by and let your evil grow and you will be put down soon just as you deserve. Beware persecution for sure theists. Take heart though. The hearts of those you have persecuted for so long are not near as blood thirsty or black as yours. Those against you do not have tyrannical leaders. They follow men of integrity. A word that you can never apply to your pedophile protecting proctors. You can thank non believing men and atheist for this and not your pathetic immoral Gods. This from this religionist who is sickened by his own fellow religionists who have rejected logic and reason for the faith of fools and belief in fantasy, miracles and magic. Regards DL

On growing up to be, as God says, one of us. Gen. 3 22 And the LORD God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, If God were here, he would tell you that if you do not do as shown belowe and conquer God, you will never have an apotheosis and begin to mirror his thinking. That is the only way to know God. You have to grow into God just as Jesus did. Hebr. 5 8 Though he were a Son, yet learned he obedience by the things which he suffered; 9And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him; Note the word became. Matt. 10 38 And he that taketh not his cross, and followeth after me, is not worthy of me. Note how we are to carry a burden. Not have him carry ours as our vicarious scapegoat and sacrifice. I submit that Jesus’ burden and ours are the same. He showed that he learned of God only with a struggle and only after doing so, could he then interpret scriptures and argue with the Rabbis of the day. The Rabbis did not like his giving all men a route to God that did not need the temple hierarchy and the funding they enjoyed. Jesus had in fact become a Gnostic Christian thanks to his apotheosis. This is likely why he was killed. He said that we are all son’s of God. Nothing has changed except that we have all forgotten that fact. Scriptures are full of such references. How do you conquer God the way Jesus did? By accepting the fact that you are in control in a natural world without any supernatural aspect. No fantasy, miracles or magic. Or as A & E and Jesus did, study good and evil till you have a firm paradigm and then make you challenge or petition to God by seeking and knocking hard on his door. If you have things right, it will be opened to you. This you must do to have God say to you. Gen 3 22 Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil: God says you can and so does Jesus. This bishop tells you how it is done. Trust me, apotheosis is worth the effort. Regards DL

If as you say, we are only following our programming as written by God, why would he deny us salvation in the first place. What is there to forgive? Us following the programming he put in us in the first place? Why not just change the program? Is that not a more logical thing to do. Scripture does not agree with you. Ezekiel 18:20 The soul that sinneth, it shall die. The son shall not bear the iniquity of the father, neither shall the father bear the iniquity of the son: the righteousness of the righteous shall be upon him, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon him. Psalm 49:7 None of them can by any means redeem his brother, nor give to God a ransom for him: If God set it up, it is murder. If Jesus did, it was self aggrandizing suicide. Both immoral acts. Is that not a more logical thing to do. Some like to use the analogy of a soldier throwing himself on an enemy grenade to save his chum. No argument. We would respect that act. To have the scenario more accurate though, you have to remember that God set the conditions or ransom to be paid. IOW, God threw the grenade and then sent his son to throw himself on it. That deserves no respect as it is an insane God doing an insane act. Why have you forsaken me----because it is a piss poor lesson to have people think that the murder of an innocent man, will take the responsibility for sin away from sinners. Read that quote above one more time and think about it. Here is some help. Regards DL

Charm Good grief. Do you believe all you hear without giving it thought? “It would seem that science is discovering that we don't have 'free wills'.” I have a little test that lets you prove to yourself that you have a free will. Within the bounds of nature and physics of course. No you cannot defy gravity. Let me know if you want to prove free will to yourself. It is short and easy. No tricks. --------------------------------------- “HE must know how things will pan out, due to 'cause and effect'“ He must eh. He must be bored out of his mind then. No wonder he is insane enough have his own son murdered needlessly. Are you aware of the uncertainty principle and do you give it veracity? ----------------------------------- “irreducible complexity, digital code in dna.” I’m not used to thinking of this term but, as DNA replicates, I understand that errors occur. Is that not reducing the complexity of the digital code of DNA. ---------------------------------- “His Omnipotence means power to do all that is intrinsically possible, “ Yet he could not maintain heaven pristine. Satan and sin were born there. Yet he could not get A & E out of Eden or have them remain, whatever he wanted, without throwing a sissy fit against the earth and the yet unborn mankind. Original sin. How an omnipotent God could not know that it was better to reboot Eden and not wait till later to use genocide in Noah’s day, should tell anyone with half a brain that God is not omnipotent. Regards DL

Firstly, the bible says so. Secondly, it is not logical. If you think it is, then show a logic trail that ties blood to forgiveness for any reason other than whim. Thirdly, what kind of an S O B God would set the condition that his own son be murdered before he ever so kindly forgives men that he thinks are less than ants to him. That God would clearly be insane. Fourthly, right justice. Regards DL