zapatos

9 hours ago, mar_mar said:

life begins with the first heartbeat and the first breath.

I'm glad to see you are pro-abortion.

19 minutes ago, AIkonoklazt said:

Te me the problem is "simple," in that it's simply intractable.

One group of people (Hamas) just wants the other (people of Israel) gone. No compromise, no peace, no deal, nada.

That's a rather narrow view of the situation in the Middle East, as if all would be solved if only Hamas were not there. Hamas has only been around since 1987. It is not as if we had no issues prior to that. In addition, prior to October 7th Hamas only had the support of around 12% of Palestinians.

In addition, one group of people (Israeli government) just wants the other (Hamas) gone. No compromise, no peace, no deal, nada.

1 hour ago, AIkonoklazt said:

What is the solution to Hamas wanting Israel to disappear along with all of its people

I'm all ears

As he said the problem is so intricate that people here cannot come up with good ideas for a solution.

5 hours ago, SeniorCitizen007 said:

The builders of the churches were not aware of the line

Is your knowledge of this based on interviews with them that you read? Can you please share the details with us?

5 hours ago, SeniorCitizen007 said:

The accuracy is not approximate ... the constructions are precisely on the lines.

How precise are the lines? Can you please share with us the measurements that were made?

2 hours ago, dimreepr said:

if Isreal really want to rid themselves of Hamas and the like, then why not spend some of that vast military funding

As I said, that only works if both sides agree. Israel can spend all they want on the Palestinians, but if the Palestinians want Israel to die and keep lobbing missile, it won't work. The part you seem to bypass whenever you suggest alternatives to violence is that BOTH SIDES have to agree to alternatives to violence.

1 hour ago, dimreepr said:

I just mean there's other ways to fight and getting what you want, that doesn't involve killing people; for both side's.

 

"Other ways" only work if both sides are willing to use those other ways. If while you are negotiating the other guy is hitting you over the head, you will lose. If while you are peacefully involved in a sit-in the other guy decides to sic his dog on you, you will lose. You can bring a knife to a fight but if they other guy brings a gun you will lose.

Eventually if you want to prevail, you must at least resort to the level of tactics your opponent uses.

3 minutes ago, J.C.MacSwell said:

To assert the blame more clearly on Hamas (they are Palestinians...but read below)than is typical in this thread,

I suspect the reason that blame keeps getting heaped on Israel more than Hamas is because Hamas is no longer rampaging through Israel, but Israel is still rampaging through Gaza. Every time someone kills a child they invite criticism. In the beginning of this most recent mess Hamas received the lion's share of rebuke. Now that Israel is on the offensive it is they who receive the lion's share of the rebuke. I personally don't find that surprising at all.

Once the fighting dies down I suspect there will be a more even-keeled evaluation of who is to blame for what. 

26 minutes ago, MigL said:

I guess because CharonY thinks there were no innocent children killed on Oct 7th.

You know that is not true so why do you say it? What do you hope to gain?

1 hour ago, AIkonoklazt said:

Namely, as far as the Israeli authorities are concerned (and no doubt a good portion of the Israeli residents as well) justification isn't in the picture in the face of survival.

 

Can you please expand on this? I'm not sure that Israelis feels Hamas has the ability to put the survival of the state of Israel at risk. Or why Israelis wouldn't feel they are fully justified to respond to such a brutal attack.

10 minutes ago, MigL said:

Yet some of us are clearly putting blame on one side only ...

Who amongst us is putting blame on one side only? Please give us a name so that person can respond.

58 minutes ago, MathHelp said:

I hear people say "there is no difference between men and women psychologically speaking" frequently enough that I was actually expecting not to actual need to cite any source.

I would suggest it is self-evident that there are psychological differences between men and women. On average, women cry more than men, men are more aggressive, women are more social, men have higher self esteem, women are more extroverted, women are have more anxiety, women are more nurturing. Anyone who has spent time with  both men and women will have recognized many differences.

A simple Google search seems to suggest there are well known and obvious psychological differences as iNow pointed out due to biology, culture, etc.

Quote

Sex differences in psychology are differences in the mental functions and behaviors of the sexes and are due to a complex interplay of biological, developmental, and cultural factors. Differences have been found in a variety of fields such as mental health, cognitive abilities, personality, emotion, sexuality, and tendency towards aggression. Such variation may be innate, learned, or both.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sex_differences_in_psychology#:~:text=Males on average are more,mindedness (e.g.%2C nurturance).

9 minutes ago, MathHelp said:

Because some people are telling me there is no difference between male and females psychologically

Perhaps you can supply us with a citation that you found indicating no psychological difference between males and females. That way we will know the details of what they are saying and can give you a more meaningful reply. 

20 minutes ago, mar_mar said:

This is you who said this.

I know. I was there.

3 hours ago, mar_mar said:

I think people lose faith, when they suppose God to to be Wizard, who performs wishes. It's a bit infant attitude.

 

As opposed to the mature attitude that spina bifida is all part of the plan of a loving god.

Face it. Belief in god is no different than belief in Santa Claus.

1 hour ago, J.C.MacSwell said:

They can do more than the Palestinians, but unfortunately they cannot do more than all of the Arab and Islamic countries,

Do they have to do more than all Arab countries? They are not oppressing all of Arabia, only all of Palestine. Doesn't the give and take only have to happen between the Palestinians and the Israelis? Israel has made a separate peace with individual Islamic countries, can't they do similarly with the Palestinians?

12 hours ago, MigL said:

Why is the onus always on Israel to do this or that, as a means of resolving the issue ?
Is it because they are expected to be reasonable , while Hamas/Palestinians are not ?
Why is Israel expected to provide Palestinians with reasonable leaders when they themselves choose unreasonable ones like Hamas ?
Why, in other words, are we absolving Palestinians from any responsibility in the matter ?

This is my opinion only and it may be misguided in part but...

The Palestinians feel oppressed by the Israelis. They seem to have two options wrt to Israel; accept the limits placed on them by Israel or lash out. They cannot take land by force, limit the movement of Israelis, cut off food or water for the Israelis, control communications or trade of the Israelis, etc. About all they can do is lash out periodically then take the beating that follows.

By comparison the Israelis are the more powerful of the two groups and as such have more options. All of the things the Palestinians cannot do, the Israelis can, and much more.

The Palestinians basically have one thing they can offer; a cessation of hostilities. The Israelis can offer the same, as well as freedom of movement, land, trade, money, political support, and all the other things a successful nation has at their disposal.

The natural tendency of many third party observers is to expect that the party in power, who has more options, to work toward resolution. And thus that is why we put the onus on Israel to do more than the Palestinians; because the Israelis CAN do more.

Both sides need to concede to some extent if they want peace, but the Israelis have more and thus are going to have to give up more than the Palestinians if they want that to happen. Israel is suffering less than the Palestinians and thus can live with the status quo more easily.

4 hours ago, joigus said:

One of the borders is also sealed (by Egypt) but for some magical reason that border does not contribute to making it a concentration camp?

Of course it does. If there were no sealed borders it would be more like any other country.

4 hours ago, joigus said:

And when Egypt occupied the land in the past, that was no occupation. No, no, no. But when Israeli settlers build irrigation systems, that's an occupation.

I have no idea how that ties into whether or not you can compare Gaza to a concentration camp.

4 hours ago, joigus said:

Metaphors, comparisons, and hyperbole are the favourite rhetorical tricks of demagogues.

You mean like the following?

4 hours ago, joigus said:

And sure, let's not mention that big, scary, monstrous, barbaric, medieval, inhumane, irrational, unmentionable thing that we don't want to mention, lest we finally understand somehow what we're really dealing with here.

4 hours ago, dimreepr said:

But you don't have to kill anyone to achieve it.

You seem to be divorced from reality.

1 hour ago, Phi for All said:

(attending church takes precedent over kindness to someone of another faith, for instance).

I've not heard that before. Can you tell me where you got that info?

1 hour ago, MigL said:

Do you think the West's flirting with 'Fascism' the past few years is even comparable to that of Germany, Italy or Spain in the 30s and 40s ?

Perhaps I'm wrong but I thought that Germany and Italy DID flirt with fascism prior to going all in and becoming fascist states.

1 hour ago, AIkonoklazt said:

I'm not exactly "pro-X" or "support X" but I kinda wonder what the heck else the world is supposed to do about all the people who are single-mindedly "working" towards rolling back the world to the age of Caliphates and eliminating anything and everything that could stand in the way?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Caliphate

Well, we are supposed to oppose them if we aren't part of them of course.

It would be nice however if while doing so we showed why ours might be a better, more civilized way.

3 hours ago, joigus said:

This doesn't seem to be the case for Gaza/Israel. Unless you're willing to accept several million people of the same ethnic and/or religious minority have met a very different fate for absolutely no identifiable reason.

The identifiable reason is that some Arabs are Israeli citizens. It doesn't keep them from being discriminated against in Israel but it means that they can no longer be kicked out of Israel. Of course none of them get back the land that was stolen from them.

3 hours ago, joigus said:

Which seems to imply that some people seem to have managed to trickle out, in spite of all those guards watching them from the turrets.

Correct. Some people manage to come and go. Again, you make it sound as if Gaza cannot be compare to a concentration camp if some people can leave, or if people aren't starving. 

Quote

41 per cent have too little food
4 out of 10 families struggle to acquire enough food. In Gaza, more than 830,000 Palestinians need assistance in the form of food or nutritional supplements.

https://www.nrc.no/news/2018/april/gaza-the-worlds-largest-open-air-prison/

3 hours ago, joigus said:

Prisoners in their territory? Quite a number of them enjoyed work permits and crossed the border on a daily basis to work in the kibbutzim with their socialist benefactors.

Similar to the way Jews worked outside the camps.

4 hours ago, joigus said:

So no, Gazans were not under guard when the attacks of October 7th happened.

Quote

Satellite images from Planet Labs also show the before-and-after view where the wall was blown up to get across at the checkpoint.

People break through the Gaza Israel border fence near Nir Oz.

Google Earth / Hamas Military Media Handout

The breach of this fence was widely circulated on social media in the immediate aftermath of the incursion because of the capture of a tank near the hole in the fence and videos show the tank burning as Hamas militants pull a dazed soldier out of it.

Later on, a bulldozer arrived and created an even bigger hole in the fence as dozens of people can be seen going in and out at will.

 

 

https://abcnews.go.com/International/detailed-hamas-secretly-crossed-israel/story?id=103917182

Quote

Israel controls the Gaza Strip's northern borders, as well as its territorial waters and airspace. Egypt controls Gaza Strip's southern border, under an agreement between it and Israel.^[87] Neither Israel or Egypt permits free travel from Gaza as both borders are heavily militarily fortified. 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gaza_Strip#:~:text=Israel controls the Gaza Strip's,borders are heavily militarily fortified.

Like many others, you seem to have reached a conclusion first then found arguments to support it.

Whether or not Gaza precisely meets any given definition of a 'concentration camp', it seems clear to me that the people who make the comparison are not overreaching to any great extent.

1 hour ago, joigus said:

(My emphasis.)

Ok. I promised myself I wouldn't participate in this thread. Its centre of gravity is soooooo far removed from the real root of the problem that I just don't think there's any chance of setting it in the right direction.

But,

Modern-day concentration camp? Really?

Prisoners in Gaza (image from today 12-8):

Prisoners in actual concentration camp (Dachau):

The first photo doesn't look like people in misery to me, tbh. Concentration camp? An impressive concentration of beer bellies more like it. Some of these men should give up on compulsive eating and start watching their glucose/LDL cholesterol levels. Seriously. They should stop hogging all that food down in the tunnels, or their heart disease will catch up with them long before Israel's bombs do.

Having said that, peace to all.

 

Concentration camps were not first created by the Nazis, and there is much more to a concentration camp than lack of food. You cannot just say "If it didn't look like what happened in Nazi Germany then it isn't a concentration camp."

Quote

A concentration camp is a place where a large number of inmates, often those deemed political enemies or members of ethnic and religious minorities, are confined against their will and under guard, usually without having been charged with a crime. Punitive conditions of internment usually result in a high rate of mortality.

...

Concentration camps have been used by governments and militaries on almost every continent over the last three centuries. In 1838, the U.S. Army rounded up members of the Cherokee tribes from the southeast U.S., forcing them into prison camps before relocating them to Oklahoma. Many Native Americans died in these so-called “emigration depots” due to the rapid spread of disease in poor sanitary conditions.

https://www.lbi.org/exhibitions/virtual-exhibition-last-stop-before-the-last-stop/concentration-camps-existed-long-before-hitler-came-to-power/

32 minutes ago, mistermack said:

Would you kindly provide support for that claim?

You can act awfully childish for a person your age. 

9 hours ago, mar_mar said:

If there were no visible light spectrum, then there would be no human mind. 

Thanks. Repeating yourself really cleared things up. 

1 hour ago, mar_mar said:

If the light didn't have different length of the waves, there would be no human mind. 

 

Wait. What?!?!

1 hour ago, mar_mar said:

How do you think animals distinguish colours? 

Eyes, nerves, brains. The regular way.