Tampitump

That's not the case I'm making. I'm saying that I'm ugly and overall extremely unattractive, and that being a 25 year old virgin whose never had a gf is good data and evidence for what girls think of me. But this isn't the only evidence. I have dozens of 1st hand experiences from high school to now that show that all women, regardless of who they are or how nice they are, are repelled by me. For example, I've had them come up to me in public at random and tell me, I've been rejected on every blind date my friends tried set me up on, I've been harrassed by them, my friends would never go with me in public where there were girls, etc. The examples can go on forever.

I do believe everything I've said. I'd actually rather be an amputee with an otherwise normal body and face than to have the body and face I have now. Like I said before, my looks are horrifying, but its not just my looks, its the whole package. I'm the whole package of ugliness and girl-repellent. You're wrong, the gym is the last place I need to be. That amputee guy you know is likely otherwise normal looking. Its a false equivalency. I, on the other hand, am inherently unattractive and ugly, the gym would only gain me more laughs, more ridicule, and more repudiation from girls. Look, the girls have spoken on this. They have always rejected me.....more than rejected me, they have often gone out of their way let me know how disgusted they are of me. It's one thing to be overweight, or to have health problems, or to have unfortunate accidents and need to use the gym to get in shape or rehabilitate. Its another thing to be inherently deformed like me, extreme back curvature, extreme flaring and deformity of the ribs, recessed chest with virtually no chest muscles, and of course the flaky skin, receding hair, and ugly face. The former is okay to go to the gym. The latter is doing himself and everyone else a disservice.

Only in the sense that religions claim to have it, while they assert non-religious don't. I agree that the word is basically meaningless, but I use it as a means of trying to explain to the religious how, whatever it is they are calling "spirituality", it can be had without believing in unjustified claims. That is, I want to show them what people actually mean when they use the term. Like you said, it really is a search for meaning or the practice of trying to be connected to the universe in more ways than the physical. Or it could mean seeking more extraordinary experiences through drugs or meditation. Either way, I think it really is the pursuit of higher experience or insight.

Don't worry, the buffoonery in this video is countered. Sedative not necessary Now, ladies and gentlemen.....Mike Pence!

There's nothing you can do. It's cathartic. I can't change my physical appearance or genetic makeup. I guess I'm just venting. It sucks knowing that you are inherently lesser of a man and inherently less desirable than most others.

I don't care to be "beautiful", just normal. I listen to guys I know talk amongst themselves all the times. Their comversations are always about the girls they are currently talking to or seeing, and about past ones, etc. Their phones are always blowimg up with texts from girls, etc. I would bet my life and every single thing I own that if I tried to initiate that kind of thing with a girl, I'd get a cold hand in my face. Girls simply DO NOT have anything to do with me. That's it. Story's end. I really wish this message could get through your guys' heads. You keep talking to me and giving advice the way you would a normal guy. You've got to deprogram what you know about normal people and normal issues when you talk to me. I'm infinitely below the average and this type of advice is not relevant to me.

I think that's the disconnect you guys have here and just don't seem to grasp. I'm not a normal person. I'm not in the position to be having any normal relationship experiences or to be "assessing" anyone. I'm a different kind of case altogether. The only thing that is missing from me is mental retardation and I would be a candidate for hospital/institution life. Girls don't want guys who look like they should be living in institutions and cared for my doctors and nurses. That's what girls see when they see me, not a normal person that is relevant, or who is within the realm of possible dates/partners. They see me as a proverbial poor, unfortunate person who got the wrong end of the genetic stick. What can I do to communicate this message more effectively to you guys where you will acknowledge it and stop treating me like a normal guy who can be helped with normal advice? I've tried to do it ad nauseam, but you guys completely ignore the info I'm giving you, and continue to give me the type of answers/advice that would only work and be relevant to normal men.

I'm not advocating eugenics or anything, but I happen to think that people like me, in fact, shouldn't breed or have sexual partners. I feel that it is only a detriment to our species to have bad genetics remaining in the gene pool, and I feel that there are good reasons for the ostracism people like myself face in this sphere. On one hand, I think it unfortunate that I happen to be one of these people, but on the other hand, I agree with their attitudes towards me. It makes perfect evolutionary sense, and I agree with them for doing so. This position is independent from the psychological effect it has on my life. I largely think that women should continue to reject and be revolted by me. I think even if I had the chance to have a gf, I would reject it on these grounds. I also wouldn't want a nice, beautiful, intelligent girl to be with me. There are so many other worthy partners she could have that it would be the ultimate injustice and disservice to her having me as her partner. I also have standards of my own, so I don't think I would like the type of girl who would like me. Of course that girl is totally hypothetical, and I don't believe such a person exists. I have yet to be presented with evidence of this person's existence.

So my case bears out yet again. Bullshit as I stated earlier in this thread, I CANNOT work out. My respritory issues from PE and other complications make it impossible. Additionally my extreme back curvature, and overall awkward body shape make it impossible for me to show off my body in public. It is humiliating and crushing to my self-esteem. I avoid public pools (and public places in general) wherein I have to take off my shirt, or where people are looking at other's bodies. Going to the gym is the number one WORST thing I could ever possibly do. If you want to put me on the fast track to ABSOLUTELY being GUARANTEED to never have a gf, and offending girls in the process, then the gym is the PERFECT suggestion. Girls who look for guys at the gym are looking for the sexy, masculine, male body, like my two former roommates I mentioned. They want to see abs and pecks and sexy, strong-looking men. I am the ANTITHESIS of that. I'm just too hard to look at and nobody wants to see that at the gym. I don't blame them either. The gym is a good meet up place for desirables. It's not a place for undesirables like me. I would only do it a disservice by being there. Girls are not looking for a shrimpy, puny, ugly, sad, deformed piece of shit like me. That is, if they're goal is not to die of laughter and pity. There is nothing working out would do for me but make me look more awkward and laughable. I'm stuck with my deformed body from PE and severe scoliosis, complete with an ugly face, receding, flaky hair, and terrible skin. I'm ugly. I'm a freak. And the gym would just be waste of my time and I wouldn't be fooling a god damn soul.

I think most biblical scholars, both secular and religious, agree that Jesus was a historical person. Bart Ehrman has written quite extensively about it. I generally accept that the myths of Jesus are based on a real person who actually existed. But I don't have a great deal of confidence in this position. I tend to think that scholars have their reasons for accepting that Jesus or "Yeshua" was a real person. I can't say for sure.

It's just conversation, I care what people believe, and this doesn't address my question.

I'm not sure if this is allowed, but I figured I would change the topic of this thread in lieu of creating a new thread for this question I'd like to ask. My question is this: Has any atheist here ever heard a Christian say to them something along the lines of "God doesn't send people to Hell, people send themselves to Hell"? If so, how did you respond to it? And what response would you give if you had the time to think on it? For me, this argument/statement is insulting and dehumanizing, in addition to being logically flawed. It seems yet another desperate attempt to create euphemisms to shield their god from criticism, and to put the blame and shame back on you. There have been many analogies made for this statement that expose its diabolical underpinnings, such as the mafia boss who preys upon the innocent person by offering him the ultimatum that as long as he keeps paying up and doing the favors, he will be taken care of. But as soon as he tries to get out of his situation and make a stand, there will be consequences. It's like the mafia boss saying "sorry buddy, I gave you the ultimatum. You chose to betray me. You brought this on yourself." This is essentially the situation many Christians espouse with their god. Its the same as the mafia boss who created this dillema and put the person in this predicament. So the options are to live at the mercy of this tyrant, or to resist at your own peril. What do you guys think about this?

This is essentially the counter-apologetic to the infamous cosmological argument. Essentially, if your premise states that everything that exists needs a creator, then by virtue of existing, God also needs a creator. This infinite regression of first causes created a problem for apologists, so the argument was revised into what is known as the "Kalãm" cosmological argument, which sought to avoid the infinite regress by qualifying the first premise to "everything which BEGINS to exist has a cause", thus disqualifying god from the list of things that must need a creator. This argument is still fallacious and problematic for many reasons. For one, we don't know whether or not the universe had an actual beginning, or if it has always existed, so the argument is not necessarily grounded in fact. Secondly. Qualifying the premise to state that god did not BEGIN to exists, and therefore does not need a creator, is a special pleading fallacy, and is something one would need to demonstrate before being justified. And finally, even if we grant the presmises, no god can be deduced from this argument because, like all arguments for god, one must prove god before deducing it. Otherwise, concluding GOD requires a leap in logic that is fallacious and unjustified. Even if one could prove that there is such a cause, and this cause must be eternal, conscious, and sentient, it still cannot be concluded that said being is a deity, much less a specific deity portrayed in one of our terrestrial holy books.

It's more about what is more reasonable to believe than how someone "knows" something. We know a great deal about the culture and worldview of the ancient hebrews (and other surrounding cultures) through their writings and stories. Just reading the bible reveals how little these people knew about how the universe is. Since we understand how human societies developed, and how/when our scientific knowledge changed/increased, it can be rationally deduced that the ancient peoples who originated these biblical tales were but primitive tribal people who hadn't the first lick of scientific insight into the universe. Using occam's razor, the above explanation is preferable to the explanation that the supernatural tales of the bible are true. The former requires fewer (if less fantastic) assumptions involving examples that we know to exist in the real world. The latter explanation is entirely unjustified.

I'm not as bad looking as I let on, I admit it. I'm just mentally depressed. That's the honest truth. I've been on the brink of suicide multiple times in my life. Depression, I'm convinced, is one of the true poisons of mankind. It can really make you feel like there is absolutely no hope, and no value in your life whatsoever. I've always had it. I think there is may be a correlation between depression and intelligence. I seem to be the type who just can't let things be. I have to keep studying something to the point where I could lecture a scientific conference on the topic. I think that also feeds my depression because my mind does not process inconvenient truths very well. Don't get me wrong, I prefer the truth of reality versus a comforting lie, but my mind seems to react by having depression. I also think most of my depression stems from my experiences with other people and the rejection I've experienced throughout my life.

I'm dubious of psychiatrists. I'm not sure how someone would meet you for an hour, then diagnose you with a mental illness. But again, what do I know? I saw the girl again tonight. She acted kind of "flirty" I guess, picking on me and joking in friendly ways. We were talking while she was stocking some shelves and her boss called her name. When she was running off to fill her boss' command she turned to me and said "see, you got me in trouble" in a joking way. I'm not sure what to make of her behavior around me. I'm not sure if she is just a nice person and is trying to be kind to me, or if she really likes me. I find her very attractive. She may not be everyone's idea of pretty, but I think most guys would find her quite attractive. She's got a very good personality that I think I could gel with very well. She's a red head, which I think is attractive. I'm happy to at least be making friends with her and being able to speak to her. I have to admit that my ability to speak to women has gotten much better in the last year. I wish I could go in public slightly drunk. I loosen up when slightly tipsy and can pretty much talk to anyone without my nerves being on a razor's edge.

You are a square. There, now we're even. Lol The way I talk on here is not how I am in person. I let it all out on here, but I'm very polite in person. I always smile, make eye contact, and act friendly. Like the woman in the article, I too have marfan syndrome. It has nothing to do with my looks. It is usually linked to people who have pectus excavatum like me. Tall, lanky, double jointed, and flat footed are also common traits of people with this condition. Guilty on all accounts. No, the things I've said about my looks are probably just my depression speaking. The real ugly thing going on with me is my severe, untreated mental depression. I think women recoil from me because of my whole essence, rather than just my looks. I'm not sure.

I actually take offense to that.

The only thing I'm saying is that the Christian God, if he were omniscient, certainly created a sinister plan. That is, if Christianity is true. I can't find an instance in the Bible where the Christian God is not like a tyrannical war lord and dictator who displays a very jealous, insecure, and vindictive character, just like the archetypal dictator. It is easy to see that these ancient gods were modelled after rulers like this. They have the same qualities. If this god existed l, I would still have the same opinion of him.

So what? This was all supposed to be God's plan right? So God's plans included the following: 1) Omnsicient and omnipotent - check 2) Create universe knowing abead of time everything that will happen - check 3) Purposely create two individuals without the knowledge of right and wrong - check 4) Tempt these humans with an attractive tree - check 5) Punish them for what I knew ahead of time they would do, and which they couldn't have possibly known the consequences of - check 6) Punish not only these two individuals for my own problems, but punish the rest of humanity for every generation to come - check 7) After freeing the Israelites, spend a great deal of time sending them on genocide missions doing my dirty deeds for me - check 8) After its all said and done, I'll stop being a psychopathic war lord and quit intervening in humans afairs. I'll stop torturing and killimg people in life, and I'll creat these two places called Heaven and Hell to send people to after they die - check 9) I still can't get over Adam's original sin, I still so desperately want to place that blame on every human being in the world. So, instead of just forgiving and letting it be (like any decent person would), I'll pretend to atone them by taking human shape and offering myself as a blood sacrifice - check 10) I'll do all this in the iron age middle eastern desert so that the only people who witness it will be ignorant desert people. I'll make the fate of humanity rest on this one event, but I will do it in such a way that the only attestation modern humans will have of this event is a bunch of botched, anonymous, ancient scriptures and no physical, empirical evidence - check 11) I will let the ones who don't believe it be consciously tortured in Hell for eternity after they die. Guys like Pat Roberston, Jerry Falwell, and Ted Haggard, those men can spend an eternity in paradise, while like Carl Sagan, Hitchens, and Einstein will fry for eternity - check 12) Remember that I'm all-perfect and knew ahead of time everything that would happen. This is all part of my perfect plan. I'm so perfect. You worship ME! Get that? Your life is for worshipping and serving ME! You WILL have no other gods before ME! I am EVERYTHING to you! You cannot live a good life without ME! You are inherently unworthy of ME! Get on your knees and beg me to save your soul! - check I could go on and on. The God of Christianity is a vindictive war lord who is jealous and egotistical. He is an idiotic god who can't get even the most trivial shit right in his plan. He claims perfection and unlimited wisdom, yet he continuously brings himself down to a human level and engages in their barbarism (instigating it most of the time). Nothing should be worshipped, especially not this piece of shit.

He's Brad Pitt compared to me.

I think it just boils down to the fact that you guys don't know just how ugly and unappealing I really am. Its not the kind that can be reconciled, or that women would find "unique looking" or "unconventionally handsome". Girls used to line up in the hallway in grade school laughing at me. I've had absolutely nothing but negative reactions from girls. I would bet my life that every single living human female in existence right now would repudiate the idea of being with me. You talk to me as if I'm a normal person. Your advice would be good if I were a normal person, but I'm not. I'm sorry, I just have too much experience. I'm the guy that is thought right off the bat to be an undesirable. They don't even put a second thought into it. Girls don't even take me into consideration. If anything, I'm the first one on their list to avoid. I'm not sure how to communicate that to you people here. You seem to be ignoring me every time I try to stress it. There are NO women who have ever lived, who live now, or will ever live who will find me attractive or will ever be willing to be with me. It really is that simple. I guess we can shut the conversation down now. I'm too old to just be starting. It just wouldn't work now, even for a normal person.

The story of Jesus is one that I find appalling. The only thing it tells you is that in Bible 2.0, this vindictive God didn't change one bit. He basically just says he won't torture you in life anymore, but will simply wait until after you're dead and torture you for eternity. This God still cannot get over what happened with Adam and Eve, and still insists on placing the burden of their "sin" upon you and blaming you for things you've never done. What kind of god does this? He comes down in human form and pretends to sacrifice himself so he can give you a reason to worship him. So for him, its a win win. Ether you spend an eternity stroking his ego, or he gets to torture you in for eternity. As Hitchens says, its a sadomasochistic belief.

I do not assume this. It is obvious. I'm not going off of bad data here. This is the story of my life. I deal with it every day. I AM, in evolutionary terms, the opposite of what everyone wants. I'm the reclusive, non-sexually attractive, non-alpha-male. You people keep talking about this like I've only had a couple weeks experience at my own life. I KNOW this stuff, I don't assume it. It is my life 24/7 for the past 25 years. It is FACT. Not opinion. Not even just a well supported hypothesis. FACT. I CAN'T have a girlfriend. I'm too old to start dating now. Its just not the world I need to get into at this point. It's a dog eat dog world that I just could not handle anyway. I'm not made for it.

I understand the uses of things like an omniscient, omnipotent, and vindictive god, and the notions of Heaven and Hell in maintaining power and control over credulous fools but why would the authors of the Bible see the need to write a saga of 66+ lengthy, allegorical stories to go along with it? Wouldn't it be enough to just use the the concepts without going through the trouble of writing the longest, most convoluted novel narrative and plot in history? Then again, you have to give the people the illusion of something real, by asserting certain "historical" manifestations of this deity. feeding this to people long enough will make it true to them. Hence, the majority of the country folk in my neck of the woods talk about the resurrection and the flood as if they're actual, demonstrated history. It kills me.