Mad Mardigan Posted October 18, 2004 Share Posted October 18, 2004 Good idea, or government control? In the UK http://www.privacy.org/pi/activities/idcard/ In the US http://www.schneier.com/essay-034.html Government control everywhere, and they are making GLP now that can put in people to track. Its in the news being candy coated. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pi_of_9 Posted October 18, 2004 Share Posted October 18, 2004 Bad for the general population, good for the incarcerated and those on probation. Actually, the criminals should have a chip surgically implanted and the government should have DNA records for every incarcerated person. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pangloss Posted October 18, 2004 Share Posted October 18, 2004 In my opinion, this is the sort of thing that you really need to embrace, understand, and control, because if you don't, it will creep up on you anyway and end up being controlled by people with no accountability (like insurance companies with vast private databases of information about your spending habits and heredity). People are generally unaware of how much their privacy has already been invaded. ID cards are no substitute for a rigorous debate on privacy issues, but people need to understand that there's a potential here for much greater trouble if we don't start undersanding, embracing and controlling. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Douglas Posted October 18, 2004 Share Posted October 18, 2004 Good idea' date=' or government control? In the UK http://www.privacy.org/pi/activities/idcard/ In the US http://www.schneier.com/essay-034.html Government control everywhere, and they are making GLP now that can put in people to track. Its in the news being candy coated.[/quote'] I'm not in favor of national I.D. cards. But, the national I.D. card, if properly dispensed, should cut down on illegal voting. .............NO ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sayonara Posted October 18, 2004 Share Posted October 18, 2004 I'm a member of the general population, and I really can't see why it is "bad for me". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
atinymonkey Posted October 18, 2004 Share Posted October 18, 2004 I find the idea of ID card reassuring. Pretty much, any person living in a state can be tracked and traced very efficiently. The ID card just makes it simpler and therefore more cost efficient to do so. The introduction of fingerprint and photo recording at US airports is just the start of a long process to track people and reduce crime of all forms, the ID card is an extension of that. Eventually, you will be tracked everywhere you go. Your pulse and respiration will be monitored via implanted chip, linked into a medical records database. Paramedics or police will be called to your location depending which one is needed. Instant protection or assistance called before you even know you need it. I'm keeping track of progress with chips placed under the skin that act as cash cards, so your wallet is effectively part of you (no more carrying cash!). It's all a conjoined lump of technological society that should advance the world far beyond the current weak legal and medical system. People who find such monitoring unsettling are by and large either unaware of how they are currently monitored, or those with something to hide. I'm sure there will be backlash from technophbic luddites, and perhaps people are entitled to either join the system or opt for a simpler life. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pi_of_9 Posted October 18, 2004 Share Posted October 18, 2004 I'm not in favor of national I.D. cards. But, the national I.D. card, if properly dispensed, should cut down on illegal voting. .............NO ? Not in California where no form of I.D. is required whatsoever. I'm a member of the general population, and I really can't see why it is "bad for me". It is a violation of privacy. Some would say, "If you have nothing to hide, there's no need to worry". I say, that if you have not put the public in harm's way (i.e., no criminal record), the government needs to stay out of your business. I WOULD be inclined to agree that an I.D. card be issued for every person entering the country that is not a citizen. I would not be opposed to being issued a card should I visit another country. I firmly believe that every country has the right to track non-citizen that have crossed through the borders. __________________ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sayonara Posted October 18, 2004 Share Posted October 18, 2004 It is a violation of privacy. Some would say, "If you have nothing to hide, there's no need to worry". I say, that if you have not put the public in harm's way (i.e., no criminal record), the government needs to stay out of your business. I'd be fascinated to hear why you think that me having an ID card is an invasion of my privacy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bloodhound Posted October 18, 2004 Share Posted October 18, 2004 It will be just another piece of ID that we will be forced to carry in our wallet. will do nothing to stop terrorism or illegal immigration. the system will probably get heavily abused as well Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
atinymonkey Posted October 18, 2004 Share Posted October 18, 2004 Not in California where no form of I.D. is required whatsoever. Really? No Birth Certificates? No Social Security Number? No Drivers License? No passports? No Bank Account? No Registration to Vote? No Medical Records? No Insurance Policy's? No Electricity Bills? No Credit Cards? No Employer Records? No Vehicle Registration? No Land Deeds? No Police Records? No Dentists? No Post Office? No Gun Control? No Vaccination Records? No Schools? No Universities? Holy crap' date=' you must all live in a feudal society with mud for currency. It is a violation of privacy Only if you are Batman. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LucidDreamer Posted October 18, 2004 Share Posted October 18, 2004 People who find such monitoring unsettling are by and large either unaware of how they are currently monitored' date=' or those with something to hide.[/quote'] I don't have anything to hide and I am aware of how I am being currently monitored yet I still find the loss of personal privacy unsettling. I am however confused about the whole concept of this card. They seem to have no specific idea of why we might need it. Is it an employment card? The United States already has a social security card and a green card. Is it an identification card intended to prevent terrorism? Terrorists could simply manufacture a fake one as they do now. Is it a consolidation card? Is it an attempt to combine all the different cards that we carry in our wallets into one? Shouldn't it be our choice as to how many cards we carry? Is it a consolidation of identification cards so that the police don't have to know how to recognize several different kinds of cards to identify someone? Perhaps its a consolidation card in the sense that it will keep all of our private information on a database that can be accessed by any government agency or anyone willing to pay for the information. Hmm, can't see much personal benefit for me here, but maybe I'm being shortsighted and I can't see how this will make us a more efficient society and will benefit us all. [sarcasm] After all there is no need for companies to waste billions of dollars each year on marketing research when they could just get all of the information about us off of a government database. There is no need for insurance companies to spend so much money on keeping separate health databases on us when they could just use the same government database in order to deny benefits and keep our economy strong. Is this card a method for the government to track its citizens? I can see no reason why the government shouldn't have complete knowledge of where all its citizens are at all times. It doesn't matter that the card would be useless against crime because the criminals wouldn't carry one. We could solve this little problem by implanting a mandatory chip in everyone. I mean I totally trust my government. I can't see any problem with allowing the government to have complete knowledge of everything I do, 24 hours a day. [/sarcasm] There seems to be no specific reason for this card other than for the government to have more control over its citizens. I mean there is a specific reason for a social security card and a driver’s license. I can even understand the purpose of consolidating a few ID cards into one. But who would a national database containing all of our private information benefit? Who would a government controlled tracking system of all its citizens benefit? Not us. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sayonara Posted October 18, 2004 Share Posted October 18, 2004 I don't have anything to hide and I am aware of how I am being currently monitored yet I still find the loss of personal privacy unsettling. Maybe you should just stop seeing it as an invasion of your privacy then. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LucidDreamer Posted October 18, 2004 Share Posted October 18, 2004 Maybe you should just stop seeing it as an invasion of your privacy then. Certainly the monitoring can serve useful purposes and some of it can be considered benign. In fact it is for these useful purposes that the laws are able to pass. However, the monitoring and the information that is collected ends up being abused. When I go to get my driver's license in Texas I am required to fill out a questionnaire with personal information. This information is then sold to commercial organizations. My own government makes me give personal information about myself so that they can sell it. This is clearly a violation of my privacy. A national database filled with a massive amount of information about people would be so utterly abused that any benefits would pale in comparison. But after the laws pass and the organization is created it will be nearly impossible to get rid of. But then again, is this what we are talking about when we talk about an identity card? There seems to be no specifics on exactly what this card will be and its intended purpose. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sayonara Posted October 18, 2004 Share Posted October 18, 2004 Which makes me wonder why people are calling it an invasion of privacy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
5614 Posted October 18, 2004 Share Posted October 18, 2004 im ok with it and dont think it is an invasion of privacy because no one will have the right to look at it other than those who could find out loadsa stuff about you anyway (if they needed to), that is the police etc, who can find out information about you anyway, it will be quicker to look at an ID card than to take finger prints etc. but i also think that the system will be abused (mentioned before), fakes will in the end become available, and fake ID could really screw up the whole system really badly. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pi_of_9 Posted October 18, 2004 Share Posted October 18, 2004 Really? No Birth Certificates? No Social Security Number? No Drivers License? No passports? No Bank Account? No Registration to Vote? No Medical Records? No Insurance Policy's? No Electricity Bills? No Credit Cards? No Employer Records? No Vehicle Registration? No Land Deeds? No Police Records? No Dentists? No Post Office? No Gun Control? No Vaccination Records? No Schools? No Universities? Holy crap, you must all live in a feudal society with mud for currency My point was that there is no requirement to show I.D. when entering the voting booth. All I have to do is walking into my precinct, tell them my name and address and walk into the booth. I could give any name and address, as long as it matches one on the list. It is a joke and a travesty. The sad part is that I don't forsee a change in the near future because there are too many "undocumented workers" in California and no politician wants to lose that constuency or the backing of latino voter. I am inclined to agree with LucidDreamer on the validity of national I.D. cards. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Douglas Posted October 18, 2004 Share Posted October 18, 2004 Which makes me wonder why people are calling it an invasion of privacy. I think what most people are talking about, it what info goes on the card and especially info that's private. That would be medical records, military records, other things like police records, sexual preference, skin color, prison records, infidelity, drinking problems, smoking, obesity, age, education (can anybody think of anything else ?) Anyway, a lot of people are concerned about this stuff, if above info can be obtained by prospective employers, insurance companies etc....you may be screwed Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sayonara Posted October 18, 2004 Share Posted October 18, 2004 They'd find it easier to get that information now using current means. The only people who will be using the information on your ID card will be the ones you allow access to it. I really don't see that records of infidelity, sexual preference, smoking, obesity etc have any place on a national identity card. Not to mention the fact that maintaining an up-to-date card for even just one person with that kind of information on it would be unworkable. And let's not forget, if we're going to discuss prospective employers, that everyone will have the same cards. Anything that can be applied to Jim can be applied to Joe. To be honest if an employer is going to take recommendations from a checkbox instead of assessing how well you can do the job, you should walk - not fight for your rights to take a job in a company you probably won't enjoy working for. And exactly how is it that fat people (as an example) are less discriminated against by prospective employers due to the fact that they don't have a card that tells people they are fat? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mokele Posted October 18, 2004 Share Posted October 18, 2004 I think of it this way: The ID card is just a way of confirming your identity by matching you and your card with computer records. Similarly, we could use retinal scanners or fingerprint scanners instead of ID cards, (if it were cost-effective), with the same effect. Plus you can't lose those. ...Ok, well, you can, but not having ID would be the least of your worries then... Only if you are Batman. Damn! Bruce Wayne Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Douglas Posted October 19, 2004 Share Posted October 19, 2004 Sayonara.....I was throwing out what might potentially be on the card. I don't have strong feelings either way about the card, other than I got enough cards, I don't need any more. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
atinymonkey Posted October 19, 2004 Share Posted October 19, 2004 My point was that there is no requirement to show I.D. when entering the voting booth. All I have to do is walking into my precinct' date=' tell them my name and address and walk into the booth. I could give any name and address, as long as it matches one on the list. It is a joke and a travesty.[/quote'] The electoral role is tied to the tax records. It's also cross checked across the records of Births and Deaths. What this means is that if you are alive, over legal age and paying tax (or registered in the system), you can vote. It's far more sophisticated than it appears, the process appears simple to speed up the voting process. If the process of voting was presented as complex, less people would turn up. What all this means is if you try to vote with a fictional name and adress, you will be prevented from voting. If your not confident in that, try voting twice under different names. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sayonara Posted October 19, 2004 Share Posted October 19, 2004 Sayonara.....I was throwing out what might potentially be on the card. I call that scare-mongering. Still waiting for one of the "it's an invasion of your privacy!!" crowd to tell me why. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
YT2095 Posted October 19, 2004 Share Posted October 19, 2004 for me and the countless Millions like me, the benefits of such a thing far outweigh any potential negative aspects due to abuse (which would be a criminal offense anyway). just think of all that outdated paperwork and documentation being made redundant! Bring it on! ) edit: the only REAL objection I have that I can call legitimate is having to pay the 30 odd quid for it, if the .Gov want`s us to have them, they should foot the bill. no one should have the right to force Mandatory Purchase. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JaKiri Posted October 19, 2004 Share Posted October 19, 2004 I'm a member of the general population, and I really can't see why it is "bad for me". Because it's forced. Because it's insecure. Because it's extremely expensive. Because it's unnecessary. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
atinymonkey Posted October 19, 2004 Share Posted October 19, 2004 It would have been useful for keeping track of you, with your mysterious and inexplicable disappearance from the intermaweb. O_o Hiding from space weasels, I presume. Never borrow money from them, I said. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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