ydoaPs Posted October 10, 2004 Share Posted October 10, 2004 if someone made a program that could do whatever it takes to stay in existance, say delete firewalls and such,; copy itself; and mutate itself if neccesary. would said program be "life"? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sorcerer Posted October 10, 2004 Share Posted October 10, 2004 I guess, however there would be one crucial difference, there are no resources for the "life form" to compete for, and hence no competition between "life forms", so any evolution would be survival based, say with our antivirus systems being predators. Really I would just consider them digital parasites, or computer viruses to use another name . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ydoaPs Posted October 10, 2004 Author Share Posted October 10, 2004 memory maybe? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rakuenso Posted October 10, 2004 Share Posted October 10, 2004 can computer viruses simply evolve by itself? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ydoaPs Posted October 10, 2004 Author Share Posted October 10, 2004 if it were programmed to Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sorcerer Posted October 10, 2004 Share Posted October 10, 2004 memory maybe? Ok, nice idea, memory, its like space, but unless these things copy themselves constantly and are reasonably large they won't really have much to compete for, meaning there will always be an excess of memory. I guess they would be alive. I don't see why not, they would be by my definition of life anyway. Considering the possibilities of this, if someone developed a virus using a gentic algorithm and it spread it could defeat patch attempts and anti-viurs software by adapting. Reproduction would be done by spreading over networks and copying onto the same HD as other filenames/infecting new files. However unless it was malicious it wouldn't be too bad, and perhaps the genetic algorithm would discover that if it was less malicious it wouldn't be persecuted as much and hence have a better chance of survival. Maybe it could even go to the opposite extreme, it could actually add useful software to computers so that it wouldn't be deleted, this would be analogous to symbiosis, while the malicious virus would be analogous to parasitism. The whole terminator scenario seems to spring to mind, if the virus somehow took over computer based machines then it might be able to have an existence in the "real" world. I think alot more people would consider machines which had these programs inside them and could self assemble offspring as "alive", than just the program in a computer. However the distinction is much like the difference between self-replicating molecules in the pre-biotic soup and cellular life, it is a hazy line. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ydoaPs Posted October 11, 2004 Author Share Posted October 11, 2004 wait, if it got into the computers controlling certain assembly lines, it could produce physical offspring and enslave the human race. the part about enslaving humans is a joke but still possible. but this scenario is based on if said program gains sentience. unless it feels that the only way for it to survive to eliminate the human threat. pictures of matrix/terminator-like future spring to mind as Sorcerer already stated. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sorcerer Posted October 11, 2004 Share Posted October 11, 2004 I dont think that a living program could become aware that there was a physical world out there, this is because even if a "mutation" enabled it to control some kind of assembly line it wouldn't actually allow it to make use of it so that its program was more successful in the virutual world, which is where all its competition is taking place. On the other hand it would be able to become aware of other programs that were competing with it, it would be interesting to see if antivirus programs were actually an adaption it would make itself, like a bacteria making antibiotics, the virus would become and antivirus program. If however we intervened and gave the program instruction that it could use to allow it to be aware of the world, then it could become somewhat sentient. This is like how we currently use genetic algorithms to design robots programing, eg stabilising for bipedal movement. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cap'n Refsmmat Posted October 11, 2004 Share Posted October 11, 2004 Theoretically the program could simulate the environment it's in by itself and see if random mutations make the program survive better in the simulated environment. At least I think so. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sorcerer Posted October 11, 2004 Share Posted October 11, 2004 If the goal of the program was to survive and part of the code simulated an environment which it was harder for it to survive in, probably the first favourable mutation would remove this environment. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rakuenso Posted October 11, 2004 Share Posted October 11, 2004 wait, if it got into the computers controlling certain assembly lines, it could produce physical offspring and enslave the human race. the part about enslaving humans is a joke but still possible. but this scenario is based on if said program gains sentience. unless it feels that the only way for it to survive to eliminate the human threat. pictures of matrix/terminator-like future spring to mind as Sorcerer already stated. it took us (humans) god knows how many years to obtain sentience, its unlikely that viruses can do it anytime soon Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cap'n Refsmmat Posted October 11, 2004 Share Posted October 11, 2004 If the goal of the program was to survive and part of the code simulated an environment which it was harder for it to survive in, probably the first favourable mutation would remove this environment. Why? The code is here trying to "evolve." It tests to see what makes it better, then uses that and copies itself into a better form. That way it keeps getting better and better until the whole thing turns into something unimaginable. (Who knows what it "evolves" into?) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ydoaPs Posted October 11, 2004 Author Share Posted October 11, 2004 is it possible make such a program? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cap'n Refsmmat Posted October 11, 2004 Share Posted October 11, 2004 It sure seems so. You make it change the simulated program randomly and test to see if the new version works better in the simulated environment. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
5614 Posted October 11, 2004 Share Posted October 11, 2004 this is an interesting thread i never really read: is it possible make such a program? no because you cannot program a program to re-program itself (what you see as evolving), coding cannot learn, it can notice patterns in actions inputted actions (how some programs work) but cannot learn from its own actions as they are a set of pre-determined rules. (see below for a bit more) if someone made a program that could do whatever it takes to stay in existance, say delete firewalls and such,; copy itself; and mutate itself if neccesary. a program could be programmed to delete firewalls, though its not that simple otherwise they would have already existed everywhere... norton password protects all option, if you selec that, meaning that it cannot be turned off without passwords, a program such as this wouldnt be designed to bypass passwords due to complications and what would happen if there was no password, it could however delete the whole thing, but then you'd notice it wasnt running.most viruses copy themselves somehow, to other computers via address book, overwriting existing files on the inffected computer... its not considered anything special. a program cannot learn, programs work on a code which is pre-determined laws that cannot become variable controlled by the program concerned i.e. a program cannot change its own core laws without having other core laws telling it what to change to, thus you could never change ALL the core laws as it wouldnt know what to change it to without more core laws... the cycle goes on! would said program be "life"? NO as it is not an organic living, respiring, being with a biomass.also it is non-physical, so it cannot be life. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
5614 Posted October 11, 2004 Share Posted October 11, 2004 just got this, was typing previous post when this was added. You make it change the simulated program randomly and test to see if the new version works better in the simulated environment. all must be pre-programed into the program though, thus it isnt learning it is merely running through pre-determined laws and programming code, the best version will be one of the pre-programmed ones, as will the worst, all of the differnt options will have been pre-programmed..... a program cant learn like a human, merely execute pre-written set laws (coding). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ydoaPs Posted October 11, 2004 Author Share Posted October 11, 2004 could it not change the cpoies it makes? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ydoaPs Posted October 11, 2004 Author Share Posted October 11, 2004 just got this' date=' was typing previous post when this was added. all must be pre-programed into the program though, thus it isnt learning it is merely running through pre-determined laws and programming code, the best version will be one of the pre-programmed ones, as will the worst, all of the differnt options will have been pre-programmed..... a program cant learn like a human, merely execute pre-written set laws (coding).[/quote'] well, some people say the same thing about humans. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
5614 Posted October 11, 2004 Share Posted October 11, 2004 could it not change the cpoies it makes? yes it could change the copies of itself, but then that wouldnt be copying it would be making a new program! any proggram makes new programs, think when you save a document, new program (or file to be technical)... however the 'new program' would have to be somewhere in the original programs coding so it knows how to make the program. again we see, the program only does what its programming says, no more... its not like a human! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
5614 Posted October 11, 2004 Share Posted October 11, 2004 well, some people say the same thing about humans. thats the free will argument, lets not go into it.... if i have free will i can learn what i want, if i dont learn i wont know etc if i dont have free will, i have the potential to learn everything... its all predetermined, but then takes away the point of life? wtvr, dont go into it, its free will!... another time another place. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ydoaPs Posted October 11, 2004 Author Share Posted October 11, 2004 well humans don't make EXACT copies of themselves, so you don't consider that reproducing? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sorcerer Posted October 12, 2004 Share Posted October 12, 2004 Why? The code is here trying to "evolve." It tests to see what makes it better' date=' then uses that and copies itself into a better form. That way it keeps getting better and better until the whole thing turns into something unimaginable. (Who knows what it "evolves" into?)[/quote'] Because you are testing its ability to survive in a simulated environment, if the environment makes it harder for it to survive, and its basic programming is to adapt so it can survive, then one of the best adaptions it could make would be to remove the program that creates its simulated environment and places selective pressure on it. A good example in the real world is Humans changing their environment so it is more conducive to survival, e.g. hygene removing disease. To 5614: perhaps you need to read up on genetic algorithms, I will find you a link, they are self programmming. "A program cannot learn", neither can genes, they are just selected for by the environment if they happen to be more successful then they proliferate, it may seem like they are "learning" but they are just apadting, it is a "designoid" feature. Read Richard Dawkins "The Blind Watchmaker" and/or "The Selfish Gene". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cap'n Refsmmat Posted October 12, 2004 Share Posted October 12, 2004 Because you are testing its ability to survive in a simulated environment, if the environment makes it harder for it to survive, and its basic programming is to adapt so it can survive, then one of the best adaptions it could make would be to remove the program that creates its simulated environment and places selective pressure on it. A good example in the real world is Humans changing their environment so it is more conducive to survival, e.g. hygene removing disease. No no no. It's evolving in the simulated environment. The program does this: Does something useful (or is a virus) Simulates its own environment in a portion of the program "evolve" in the simulation, not in the real program Evaluate if the evolution makes it better at replicating (if it's a virus) Replicate as the new version if it's better So it is replicating as a virus, then the virus will destroy the system, and test to see if it can be any better. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sorcerer Posted October 12, 2004 Share Posted October 12, 2004 http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q=genetic+algorithms&btnG=Google+Search&meta= lol, most of its even too complex for me, good luck. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ydoaPs Posted January 13, 2005 Author Share Posted January 13, 2005 i found out that virtual life DOES exist. it is called avida. you can get it here: http://dllab.caltech.edu/avida/ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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