Is the republican party a cult?

[SH3RL0CK]

Sherlock - This is such common knowledge that there's even a whole several sections on the NRA wiki page:

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_Rifle_Association#Past_campaigns

 

Ok, lets look at some quotations from this site:

 

The NRA sponsors a range of safety programs to educate and encourage the safe use of firearms.

 

NRA hunting safety courses are offered all across the U.S. for both children and adults.

In addition to competitive marksmanship and gun safety, local programs supported by the NRA include instructor/coach training, gun collector programs, hunting programs, and programs for law enforcement officers.

In its lobbying for gun rights, the NRA asserts the Second Amendment guarantees the right of individuals to own and use guns. The NRA opposes measures that conflict with the Second Amendment and/or the right to privacy enjoyed by law-abiding citizens who are gun owners. The NRA has supported gun rights on other grounds as well—they opposed the Brady Bill in the courts on Tenth Amendment grounds, not Second Amendment.

 

On June 26, 2008, the U.S. Supreme Court ruled for the first time in American history in District of Columbia v. Heller that the Second Amendment provides for an individual right to own a gun. The implication of this major decision will play out over the next several decades.

 

In 2005, the NRA, the Second Amendment Foundation (SAF), and others successfully sued the Mayor of New Orleans and others to stop unconstitutional gun seizures in the wake of Hurricane Katrina. As of March 2006, documents have been filed by NRA, SAF, et al. seeking to hold Ray Nagin and others in contempt of court for violating the consent order. The case is National Rifle Association of America, Inc., et al. v. C. Ray Nagin et al..[10][11]

 

The NRA opposes most new gun-control legislation, calling instead for stricter enforcement of existing laws such as prohibiting convicted felons and violent criminals from possessing firearms and increased sentencing for gun-related crimes.

Note empahsis on Most, not all...

 

The NRA is criticized by gun control groups such as the Coalition to Stop Gun Violence, Brady Campaign, Million Mom March, and Americans for Gun Safety...The NRA has been criticized by other gun rights groups for doing too little to get existing restrictions repealed, and sometimes helping to draft restrictive legislation.

Note the specific criticisms by gun rights groups...

 

From these quotes it appears to me that the NRA has a stance on gun rights which, while certainly conservative in nature, is not extreme. Certainly I cannot conclude it is common knowledge, based upon this, that the NRA is such - did you even read the article and if so what did you see in it that I did not? These statements do not support the assertions by gre:

They are absolutely anti-any_type_of_gun_regulations_what_so_ever ... This is a fact, not an opinion..

(the NRA are anti - common sense guns laws)

Is the NRA responsible for this ignorance, or is it just word of mouth via the bias ignorant folks (brainwashing eachother)?

 

Should propaganda sites like this be illegal? is it unethical?

 

What is the word this kind of manipulation?

 

Here is a N.R.A (propaganda site).

 

http://gunbanobama.com/

is this website sponsored or endorsed by the NRA? And gre, why do you imply the NRA is responsible for ignorance considering they do more to educate people about guns and gun safety than anyone?

[gre]

I still feel the NRA takes an extreme stance for gun rights, and I'm talking about legislation and political views specifically not safely and hunting programs, classes, etc (They do believe in and promote gun safety & education, and I'm not saying they don'tl) ... I still haven't seen any pro common sense gun law supported by the NRA. Please post a direct link if you have one.

 

is this website sponsored or endorsed by the NRA?

 

Here is the DNS information:

 

Administrative Contact:

Hayes, Tony webmaster@nrahq.org

National Rifle Association of America

11250 Waples Mill Rd

Fairfax, VA 22030

United States

7032671097

 

 

Anyway.. Lots of extreme anti-obama-he'll-take-my-guns-away views exist out there (regardless of whether it is a cult-like group or not) ... What do you call this type of misconception (conspiracy theory)?

Edited September 22, 2009 by gre

[SH3RL0CK]

I still feel the NRA takes an extreme stance for gun rights, and I'm talking about legislation and political views specifically not safely and hunting programs, classes, etc (They do believe in and promote guns safety education, and I'm not arguing that at all) ... I still haven't seen any pro common sense gun law supported by the NRA. Please post a direct link if you have one.

 

You are free to make your beliefs. But you have certainly not convinced me that they are extremist - to the contrary. You made the claim, you need to back it up or withdraw it. Whether or not they propose common sense gun laws has no bearing on whether or not they are extremists.

 

Here is the DNS information:

 

Administrative Contact:

Hayes, Tony webmaster@nrahq.org

National Rifle Association of America

11250 Waples Mill Rd

Fairfax, VA 22030

United States

7032671097

 

 

And back to the topic... Lots of extreme anti-obama-he'll-take-my-guns away views exist out there... What do you call this type of misconception (conspiracy theory)?

 

 

To be fair, I haven't looked at the site (I am at work) but regardless of what is there, so what? It can't be any different than some of the propaganda put out by moveon.org, etc. Its called politics; you can go talk to Michael Moore about how unfair this is if you would like... I will, however, try to find time to look at it (I can't, unfortunately, tonight and probably not until the weekend either).

 

Also, to be fair to Obama, you have claimed

Look at Obama's voting history on gun related issues... Almost everything he has supported is "common sense".

I'm not familiar with how Obama has voted...considering his short tenure as a senator I doubt any significant gun legislation even came up. How about you provide us with a link(s) on his voting record with regards to gun laws to back up your statement?

 

Back to topic, I'm not sensing any conspiracy theories out there at all. Just a lot of politics, which is to be expected now that the honeymoon for Obama has ended. Happens to all presidents and doesn't mean they won't be able to accomplish anything.

Edited September 22, 2009 by SH3RL0CK

[iNow]

I'm not familiar with how Obama has voted...considering his short tenure as a senator I doubt any significant gun legislation even came up. How about you provide us with a link(s) on his voting record with regards to gun laws to back up your statement?

Google is your friend, Sherlock.

 

 

http://www.factcheck.org/elections-2008/nra_targets_obama.html

[gre]

Google is your friend, Sherlock.

 

 

http://www.factcheck.org/elections-2008/nra_targets_obama.html

 

And take a look at that site, http://gunbanobama.com/, so you understand what I'm talking about...

[SH3RL0CK]

Google is your friend, Sherlock.

 

 

http://www.factcheck.org/elections-2008/nra_targets_obama.html

 

yes it is. I agree the NRA is targeting Obama - but they feel this is necessary. Again, this is called politics, something all political parties and action groups engage in.

 

But to my question, what is Obamas voting record?, see http://www.ontheissues.org/Domestic/Barack_Obama_Gun_Control.htm

 

A quick summary is as follows, I'll bold some items of interest:

Opposed bill okaying illegal gun use in home invasions ...

Ok for states & cities to determine local gun laws ...

FactCheck: Yes, Obama endorsed Illinois handgun ban...

 

an explanation Obama gave at a private fundraiser in San Francisco of the challenges he faced with working-class voters in Pennsylvania and Indiana. "It's not surprising they get bitter," he said, referring to decades of constrained economic opportunities. "They cling to guns or religion or antipathy to people who aren't like them or anti-immigrant sentiment or anti-trade sentiment as a way to explain their frustrations."...

nice. So people who maybe disagree with him are "frustrated" and "cling" to guns or religion or bigotry? Is this what Obama really thinks? I'm curious that it appears he views his oponents in terms of guns, religion, and bigots ... and belittles people who disagree. But I'm not here to bash Obama, who B.T.W. I think has done a decent job as president so far.

 

Respect 2nd Amendment, but local gun bans ok ...

An obvious contradiction here that cannot possibly be reconciled...how do you tell someone they can't have free speech in Washington DC? Or how do you tell someone that the equal protection clause doesn't apply in Miami? Or how do you tell a religious person they can't worship in Chicago?

2000: cosponsored bill to limit purchases to 1 gun per month ...

Concealed carry OK for retired police officers...

Stop unscrupulous gun dealers dumping guns in cities ...

Keep guns out of inner cities--but also problem of morality ...

Bush erred in failing to renew assault weapons ban ...

Ban semi-automatics, and more possession restrictions ...

Voted NO on prohibiting lawsuits against gun manufacturers....

 

 

Obamas not the most extreme politician out there, but there is certainly enough where I can see why the NRA does not view Obama as friendly to the 2nd amendment. Which would explain the normal political mudslinging they are engaging in. I'd also say Obama is much more extremist here than the NRA actually...

[A Tripolation]

You mean, what reason do you have to look something up rather than just assuming an answer? Some people like to base opinions on objective facts, when available.

 

Sisyphus:

See post above this one.

[SH3RL0CK]

And take a look at that site, http://gunbanobama.com/, so you understand what I'm talking about...

 

 

Again, I can't do so from work and am busy this week with other things. I'll try to do so this weekend.

 

But you should really try to consider that perhaps the NRA aren't being the extremists you make them out to be...looking at my link on Obamas stance on guns there is certainly ample reason for concern for the 2nd amendment. Looking at his actual voting record, I'm not sure the assessment by factcheck.org is accurate - I think the problem is his rhetoric isn't matching his voting. So should we accept what he says today or how he voted 5 years ago?

Edited September 22, 2009 by SH3RL0CK

[JillSwift]

Guns don't kill people, gun control topics kill threads, though.

[bascule]

It's common knowledge that most liberals support incredibly strict gun laws, or no guns at all, just as it is common knowledge that most conservatives oppose abortion.

 

I don't know about that. For example, I'm a liberal (perhaps call me a liberaltarian) who supports and exercises gun rights. In fact Showtime is making a series about a gun club I've attended (albeit not regularly):

 

http://www.sho.com/site/locknload/home.do

 

I think you'll find guns less passionately opposed by most liberals than you will abortion passionately opposed by conservatives.

[Sisyphus]

Sisyphus:

See post above this one.

 

And what's that supposed to show me?

[A Tripolation]

I don't know about that. For example, I'm a liberal (perhaps call me a liberaltarian) who supports and exercises gun rights. In fact Showtime is making a series about a gun club I've attended (albeit not regularly):

 

I consider myself to be more libertarian than conservative, so I'd have to say that liberals and libertarians aren't really in the same boat on a lot of matters...a whole lot actually. Unless I have the fundamentals of libertarianism confused.

---

Merged post follows:

Consecutive posts merged

And what's that supposed to show me?

 

That my guess about Obama on gun control was right...that the statistical truth was proven in Obama by what he says and his voting record. That my bet paid off, and that the bet wasn't just me blithely spouting off about Obama, and that I was basing my opinion on what I know about him and liberals in general.

 

That's what it is supposed to show you.

[gre]

yes it is. I agree the NRA is targeting Obama - but they Again, this is called politics, something all political parties and action groups engage in.

 

I would say dirty politics, and lobbyist groups are masters of it... It's just unfortunate they have to twist the truth to get their way (and it's legal).. I can think of several right wing campaigns that twist the truth... (ie. anti gay marriage, and a few others)

 

 

What are some extreme left campaigns that twisted the truth?

[A Tripolation]

What are some extreme left campaigns that twisted the truth?

 

All conservatives want to do away with seperation of church and state...we want an Orwellian society...we are against women's rights...we are ignorant bible-thumpers bent on converting everyone to our religion...farmers pollute the land by using fertilizer...the world could survive on organic food...take your pick.

[gre]

All conservatives want to do away with seperation of church and state...we want an Orwellian society...we are against women's rights...we are ignorant bible-thumpers bent on converting everyone to our religion...farmers pollute the land by using fertilizer...the world could survive on organic food...take your pick.

 

Do you have any specific references? I've never seen a commercial aired that attempted to convince anyone to believe these statements..

[A Tripolation]

Do you have any specific references? I've never seen a commercial aired that attempted to convince anyone to believe these statements..

 

No, just things I've witnessed in my short lifetime. I'm not google search savvy. I don't know how the heck these guys pull some of the stuff they do.

 

Oh...basically any vegan product commercial implies that "pollution by farmers" crap.

 

Are you telling me that you have never heard these claims from the far-left? Is that what you are saying?

[gre]

 

Are you telling me that you have never heard these claims from the far-left? Is that what you are saying?

 

Yes. But I do live in California... So that could be why.

[A Tripolation]

Yes. But I do live in California... So that could be why.

 

What would that have to do with it? If anything, where you live would increase your chance of left-crazies bombarding you with literature about the New World Order and how the government is taking control of the world.

[gre]

It sounds to me like you're just spouting off random topics... Give me some specific references, i.e. web campaigns or TV campaigns, etc... From real (lobbyist) organizations.. Not just random wack-job web sites.

Edited September 22, 2009 by gre

[A Tripolation]

Sounds to me like you just don't have enough life experience to realize those aren't "random whack jobs" websites.

 

http://www.greenpeace.org/usa/campaigns/genetic-engineering

 

Here...GE is killing us and our tomatoes will turn into Terminator plants and eat US!!! OH NOES!!!!!

 

And yes, GreenPeace throws some money at law-makers, making them a de facto lobbyist group.

[gre]

GreenPeace is a good example of a left wing group. But I'm still looking a reference to a political advertisement where a group (like GreenPeace) tries to manipulate an election by airing a commercial that twists the truth..

Edited September 22, 2009 by gre
Consecutive posts merged.

[A Tripolation]

Btw, you're twisting the truth here.

 

lol yeah.

Hey, how about where the leader of the left wing airs a commercial that twists the truth?

 

 

Please tell me you've seen this before.

And yes, Johnson was a democrat, and this one commercial totally screwed his opponent over.

[gre]

lol yeah.

Hey, how about where the leader of the left wing airs a commercial that twists the truth?

 

 

Please tell me you've seen this before.

And yes, Johnson was a democrat, and this one commercial totally screwed his opponent over.

 

Nope, I'm not over 50 ... Can you find anything more recent?

[A Tripolation]

Nor am I.

You asked for an example, I gave you one. I rendered your premise false.

As such, I've proven my point.

Take care now.

[Pangloss]

Addressing two comments at once here:

 

I'd also say Obama is much more extremist here than the NRA actually...

 

That my guess about Obama on gun control was right...that the statistical truth was proven in Obama by what he says and his voting record.

 

He also said after the DC Gun Ban was overturned that he opposes absolute bans on gun ownership.

 

Our president, by the way, is a former constitutional law professor at the University of Chicago Law School, and holds a Juris Doctor degree from Harvard Law School, where he graduated magna cum laude after service as president of Harvard Law Review. (I just mention this because I think it's relevant to any discussion that includes a question of whether a politician understands the value of a particular amendment to the constitution.)

 

 

Here are a couple of interesting quotes from our president in his own words:

 

Not so far beneath the surface, I think, we are becoming more, not less, alike.

 

I don't mean to exaggerate here, to suggest that the pollsters are wrong and that our differences -- racial, religious, regional, or economic -- are somehow trivial. In Illinois, as is true everywhere, abortion vexes. In certain parts of the state, the mention of gun control constitutes sacrilege. Attitudes about everything from the income tax to sex on TV diverge wildly from place to place.

 

It is to insist that across Illinois, and across America, a constant cross-pollination is occurring, a not entirely orderly but generally peaceful collision among people and cultures. Identities are scrambling, and then cohering in new ways. Beliefs keep slipping through the noose of predictability. Facile expectations and simple explanations are being constantly upended.

 

And I can't resist repeating my favorite quote from the entire book, which comes right on the heels of the above:

 

Spend time actually talking to Americans, and you discover that most evangelicals are more tolerant than the media would have us believe, most secularists more spiritual. Most rich people want the poor to succeed, and most of the poor are both more self-critical and hold higher aspirations than the popular culture allows. Most Republicans strongholds are 40% Democrat, and vice versa. The political labels of liberal and conservative rarely track people's personal attributes.

 

Elsewhere in his book he states a belief that guns should be controlled to keep them out of inner cities, but in the same paragraph talks about how the real problem is not the guns but the people using them and the problems and stresses they're dealing with. Which sounds very much like the NRA's unofficial motto, "guns don't kill people, people kill people."

 

This is the problem with using voting records to reach conclusions like SH3RLOCK's "he's more extreme than the NRA". A deeper look is required.

Edited September 23, 2009 by Pangloss